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  1. #16
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    FYI, Action 775 (the number you've mistakenly put on the title there) actually contains quite a famous story called "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way" by Joe Kelly and Doug Mahnke (just realizing how awesome it is that Mahnke did that issue and just did the one 200 issues later). Its probably one of the most critically praised modern Superman stories and introduced a bunch of characters that have since had quite a role in the Superman books: Manchester Black and the Elite. They even made an animated movie based on that one issue: Superman vs. the Elite a few years back.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member rui no onna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    However, one thing I am beginning to see is that it isn't really just about that- how old Superman is, who Superman is with, and whether he's married or single. They could do some things with a married Lois and Clark that'd be interesting if they had the same approach to storytelling as in the New52. Maybe Lois would have kissed the Mystery Clark and felt guilty, but not been as attracted to Clark the farmer, and maybe at the same time, the history of the New52 characters would have caused some tension in the marriage with Lois not liking Clark's teaming up with Wonder Woman and Clark feeling like she was blaming him for something he didn't do, and Wonder Woman not wanting to break up a marriage but being written in a way where you knew she still loved Clark, then when Lois is cheating on Clark with Fake-Clark, maybe Clark has an affair with Wonder Woman, or comes close to it. These characters are not being written in interesting three-dimensional ways, they're written like they're in a children's cartoon show.
    That sounds like something out of Days of Our Lives had it dabbled with superheroes...
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    Except those are basically Superman's best years as a character. It makes sense to do them again and see how things develop differently every so often.
    Says who? Please, tell me any other form of fiction that operates on that notion. If J.K. Rowling were to come out with new Harry Potter books, would fans wants her to pick up with a Harry who never went to Hogwarts or fought Voldemort? Uh...no.

    Superman went though all these developments and experiences: he married Lois, he fought Luthor and Brainiac and Hank Henshaw for the first time, he died fighting Doomsday and was resurrected, etc. Fans don't want some tired old rehash by some writer who thinks he's somehow giving us something original by doing something that's already been done before. And the fact that a book about Superman who already DID go through all of this, remembering his life as it was told in stories from the 50s/60s all the way up to the 90/00s, is more critically acclaimed than those about the guy who was supposed to be the more "modern, relatable" take ever were should speak volumes.

    So, a person who doesn't read comic books refuses to accept a development in a comic book character's life. Why should that dictate the direction of the comics? That's not someone who used to read and then stopped because they didn't like the direction or got bored, and who might come back, nor is it someone who would potentially start reading comics if something developed in a way that appealed to them (ie They would have been reading Pre-Flashpoint if Clark and Lois being together was the missing thing keeping them from reading).
    I'm using her reaction to signify how ingrained the Clark/Lois relationship is in the public psyche. And what's probably more important is that her reaction mirrored what the majority of Superman fans felt. Just goes to show that DC's dumb decisions didn't just impact us Superman fans.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 03-11-2017 at 01:13 AM.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member FishyZombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post

    Except those are basically Superman's best years as a character. It makes sense to do them again and see how things develop differently every so often. After 25 years, SuperDad got the girl, beat every villian six times, and basically did everything there was to do- the story is basically done, unless they want to do stories about him raising kids and farming, which they apparently do. I'd rather see it start over with a modern setting and some surprises, which is what they did, and I get that that didn't resonate with everyone, but they didn't have to go from like half a dozen bioks that featured that to zero while basically telling anyone who wanting to read that they have no taste and that their hero sucked. Its a bit surreal to see some of the same guys who invented New52 Superman basically bury him and riducule people for liking what they told us all to like for five years.
    God damnit I typed up this whole reply and it was all well thought out and written, and I was all proud of it, then I clicked reply and it logged me out. Then I rewrote it and it did it AGAIN! God. Fricking. Damnit. Forgive me SuperCrab if this sounds angrier than it should. It is not directed at you, it is at the gods of the internet.

    Anyway i think that's a very cynical way of looking at it. Pretty much every major Superhero manages to go decade after decade of stories without rebooting back to day one or when the hero is a novice every 15-20 years, thanks to the sliding timescale. Pretty much every Marvel Superhero, Batman, Green Lantern, Flash, ect. I don't see why it can't work for Supes. Frankly I'm tired of young, up and coming Superman being the default Superman in basically every medium. He's supposed to be THE Superhero, the guy should have his damn history intact. I disagree that there isn't any story potential for a Superman 15-20 years into his career, because well it works just fine for most big Superheroes. All that does is challenge writers to not go and do lazy retellings of the first time Supes fought Luthor or met Supergirl or whatever. Clark isn't some Peter Parker figure, who's development is forever stunted for being too closely associated with being a young man who doesn't have his life together. Thats why the return of PF Superman is so refreshing.
    As for Lois, like I said, I am not against trying different different romantic options for Supes, even though I do love those two as a couple. I even got a lot of flack by multiple posters here for suggesting that I wouldn't mind Lois and Clark eventually getting a divorce story someday. I don't WANT them to, but I wouldn't dismiss the idea. The problem is that Superman being with Lois is just so engrained into the character at this point. He wears tights, he hates Lex, he flies, he loves Lois Lane. Any writer who tries to do something different has an uphill battle, since in the back of our minds we all know he'll run back to Lois before too long. That's what we all thought would happen with the Wonder Woman thing, and here we are.
    Last edited by FishyZombie; 03-11-2017 at 03:48 AM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    However, one thing I am beginning to see is that it isn't really just about that- how old Superman is, who Superman is with, and whether he's married or single. They could do some things with a married Lois and Clark that'd be interesting if they had the same approach to storytelling as in the New52. Maybe Lois would have kissed the Mystery Clark and felt guilty, but not been as attracted to Clark the farmer, and maybe at the same time, the history of the New52 characters would have caused some tension in the marriage with Lois not liking Clark's teaming up with Wonder Woman and Clark feeling like she was blaming him for something he didn't do, and Wonder Woman not wanting to break up a marriage but being written in a way where you knew she still loved Clark, then when Lois is cheating on Clark with Fake-Clark, maybe Clark has an affair with Wonder Woman, or comes close to it. These characters are not being written in interesting three-dimensional ways, they're written like they're in a children's cartoon show.
    Better something lively and animated with proper moral family values than something cold, crass and cruel like those Jerry Springer subplots you mention

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    one more thread bashing jurgens good run and praising a much worse stories?

    Jurgens get Lois and Clark dinamic very well, maybe even better than anyone on DC right now

  7. #22
    Incredible Member Jadeb's Avatar
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    The trouble with the soap opera melodramatics is that they aren't going to stick, or, if they do, it's often to the long-term detriment of the character. Pairing Superman with Wonder Woman was a short-term sales stunt. Sooner or later, it was going to end, because it was a dead end. Readers knew that. The fact that it was done in such an abrupt, ham-fisted manner just made it feel all the more cynical. And it came at the cost of undermining Clark's relationship with Lois. He and she really had no reason to appear in the same book, or for her to be a significant part of Clark's life. Worse, that was symptomatic of a larger problem for the New 52 Super books: The status quo established for Clark was fatally flawed from the get-go. Tossing out his history AND severing him from his supporting cast just set the character adrift. Seeing young Clark was fun for a few issues under Morrison's pen, but, ultimately, there has to be a direction (and a world) established for the character. That never happened in the New 52. Truth, with an unrecognizable Clark wandering aimlessly on a motorcycle, was an unintentionally apt metaphor.

    Also, DC has never been lacking in soap-opera melodramatics, at least not in recent years. Look at poor Kon-El. That approach to storytelling, with all the daddy drama and CW angst, has left the character radioactive. Tim Drake suffered a similar fate for similar reasons. For me at least, the earnestness of the current books is most refreshing. I want Superman to enjoy being Superman, and I often found New 52 Superman (after Morrison left) lacking in that most important quality: fun.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadeb View Post
    The trouble with the soap opera melodramatics is that they aren't going to stick, or, if they do, it's often to the long-term detriment of the character. Pairing Superman with Wonder Woman was a short-term sales stunt. Sooner or later, it was going to end, because it was a dead end. Readers knew that. The fact that it was done in such an abrupt, ham-fisted manner just made it feel all the more cynical. And it came at the cost of undermining Clark's relationship with Lois. He and she really had no reason to appear in the same book, or for her to be a significant part of Clark's life. Worse, that was symptomatic of a larger problem for the New 52 Super books: The status quo established for Clark was fatally flawed from the get-go. Tossing out his history AND severing him from his supporting cast just set the character adrift. Seeing young Clark was fun for a few issues under Morrison's pen, but, ultimately, there has to be a direction (and a world) established for the character. That never happened in the New 52. Truth, with an unrecognizable Clark wandering aimlessly on a motorcycle, was an unintentionally apt metaphor.

    Also, DC has never been lacking in soap-opera melodramatics, at least not in recent years. Look at poor Kon-El. That approach to storytelling, with all the daddy drama and CW angst, has left the character radioactive. Tim Drake suffered a similar fate for similar reasons. For me at least, the earnestness of the current books is most refreshing. I want Superman to enjoy being Superman, and I often found New 52 Superman (after Morrison left) lacking in that most important quality: fun.
    Well said. I wish this site had a like button.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
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  9. #24
    Never Giving Up! GreenLanternRanger's Avatar
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    975 hands down! the others are decent as well, but Action #975 was the most fun I've had reading a "special anniversary issue" of a series in quite some time.
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  10. #25
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    Also, I felt like Lois was a better character in the New52 than in Rebirth. As Rebirth Lois herself said, there was no way she would have outed Clark's secret identity to the world. However, Lois Lane is supposed to be a hard-nosed reporter who believes the public has the right to know things like that.
    I do disagree with some of that. The Rebirth Lois is a bit more experienced; before she went and exposed Superman's secret identity (which she herself might have done in her earlier days), she may have thought about possible consequences first. If she exposed his identity and criminals went and killed loved ones/friends/neighbors of "Clark Kent" to get at Superman because they now knew Clark Kent was Superman, would Lois just have thought "Oh well, too bad for them"? Or would she have felt guilty that her story exposed those people to criminals when they hadn't done anything wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    They should have told Pérez what Superman's status quo was. There was no excuse for them not answering him when he asked if Superman's adoptive parents were alive or not, and stuff like that. He needed to be let in on stuff. I don't know if they had no plan or didn't want to tell him, but either way, it's a bad situation to put him in that was bad for the comic. Still, I think his run is underrated- those issues were very good under the circumstances. I really liked them.
    I really enjoyed the initial Pérez-written issues. I do wonder if part of the problem wasn't that they (editorial-side) didn't tell Pérez what Morrison was doing or was it that they gave Morrison too free a hand so that even the editorial people weren't sure where Morrison was headed? They should have had the two writers discussing the matter themselves so Pérez would have a better idea of what Morrison was likely to be attempting to do.

    ------------------------
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    What they should have done was just launch the New 52 as a completely separate line of comics from the main DC Universe back in 2011 and just continued the DCU as it was. Let the real DCU be the real DCU and the New 52 should have been like Marvel's Ultimates.
    And the Ultimates line was so successful that it continues even today . . . NOT.
    What DC should have considered was more like Silver Age 2.0 . . . don't have New52 overwrite the pre-Flashpoint stories, but have the New52 be the world / the stories that DC focused on and published. The older continuity could still exist on another Earth that DC could reintroduce in the future after they felt they had a good basis for the New52 going so that it didn't feel like it was the supporting / minor / secondary continuity versus the pre-Flashpoint stories.

  11. #26
    Mighty Member Lokimaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Says who? Please, tell me any other form of fiction that operates on that notion. If J.K. Rowling were to come out with new Harry Potter books, would fans wants her to pick up with a Harry who never went to Hogwarts or fought Voldemort? Uh...no.

    Superman went though all these developments and experiences: he married Lois, he fought Luthor and Brainiac and Hank Henshaw for the first time, he died fighting Doomsday and was resurrected, etc. Fans don't want some tired old rehash by some writer who thinks he's somehow giving us something original by doing something that's already been done before. And the fact that a book about Superman who already DID go through all of this, remembering his life as it was told in stories from the 50s/60s all the way up to the 90/00s, is more critically acclaimed than those about the guy who was supposed to be the more "modern, relatable" take ever were should speak volumes.



    I'm using her reaction to signify how ingrained the Clark/Lois relationship is in the public psyche. And what's probably more important is that her reaction mirrored what the majority of Superman fans felt. Just goes to show that DC's dumb decisions didn't just impact us Superman fans.
    But your missing the point of Flashpoint, Everything was done against the Characters will. They didn't choose to be reborn as the New52 lot that choice was Made for them. They had the play the cards that were dealt to them. Some started off with better hands then others, some bluffed and anted there way into better hands, Some went bust and left the game but they all kept playing. Rebirth was akin to flipping the table saying the other guy was cheating and shooting him dead. New 52 Superman's parents died in a car crash, that right there showed him of out frailty since a car crash wouldn't have fazed him yet took his Ma and Pa away. He was still a kid then. Late teens yes but still a Kid. Orhaned again. Yet he still became Superman, on his terms, his way, HIS. This Superman was a Self Made Man. The Jeans and T-Shirt were His Circus Uniform, He took his fight to the Corrupt both as Clark at the DailyStar and As Superman in a world where Superheroes were a new thing. Batman, Flash, Aquaman, GL, WW they were all just starting out together, Hell we got to see the Birth of Cyborg. Young, Cocky and Strong They ready to save the world and holy shit they Did. They beat a Darkseid that had been kicking everyone's ass up to that point and these Kids Beat him. Bravo! That's why I loved the New 52, It was fresh, it was exciting and it was unpredictable. One of the Mandates of the New52 was to create new villans, they tried. Some worked, some didn't but you gotta keep trying. For every H'el there's a Phantom King right. Not only that but Batman and Supes were True Bros again with no baggage to sour the relationship. I'd trade thousand rebirth just for that. Bruce's reaction after Clark told him of his impending death was priceless.

  12. #27
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    But your missing the point of Flashpoint, Everything was done against the Characters will. They didn't choose to be reborn as the New52 lot that choice was Made for them. They had the play the cards that were dealt to them. Some started off with better hands then others, some bluffed and anted there way into better hands, Some went bust and left the game but they all kept playing. Rebirth was akin to flipping the table saying the other guy was cheating and shooting him dead. New 52 Superman's parents died in a car crash, that right there showed him of out frailty since a car crash wouldn't have fazed him yet took his Ma and Pa away. He was still a kid then. Late teens yes but still a Kid. Orhaned again. Yet he still became Superman, on his terms, his way, HIS. This Superman was a Self Made Man. The Jeans and T-Shirt were His Circus Uniform, He took his fight to the Corrupt both as Clark at the DailyStar and As Superman in a world where Superheroes were a new thing. Batman, Flash, Aquaman, GL, WW they were all just starting out together, Hell we got to see the Birth of Cyborg. Young, Cocky and Strong They ready to save the world and holy shit they Did. They beat a Darkseid that had been kicking everyone's ass up to that point and these Kids Beat him. Bravo! That's why I loved the New 52, It was fresh, it was exciting and it was unpredictable. One of the Mandates of the New52 was to create new villans, they tried. Some worked, some didn't but you gotta keep trying. For every H'el there's a Phantom King right. Not only that but Batman and Supes were True Bros again with no baggage to sour the relationship. I'd trade thousand rebirth just for that. Bruce's reaction after Clark told him of his impending death was priceless.
    It would have been nice if they stuck with the idea of starting over fresh across the board for the whole line, but if DC was truly serious about starting from scratch and not being tied to the previous universe, then they shouldn't have done the whole five years later crap and started everyone off at year zero. No 5 Robin's in 5 years. No Kyle Rayner and all the other various earth GL's. Everyone gets a fresh start and the universe gets built organically.

    They didn't want to reboot some properties and they decided to reboot others. Some characters like BATMAN kept most of their history when SUPERMAN didn't, and no one bothered to clarify it all. That led to a feeling that it was all temporary, and ultimately it was.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
    SUPERMAN is the greatest fictional character ever created.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member adrikito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    I think the New52 was trying to be slick, realistic (for superhero comic books, obviously, it's a relative thing), with a certain dramatic maturity and complexity, and set to appeal to the type of people who'd watch a television drama or action movie..
    Yes, I follow him because I see him a realistic and serious character focused in superman mythology..

    SuperCrab .. Read that:

    Before N52 MY IDOLS were the Batfamily... Then, during N52, Superman and the Batfamily.. Now the Batfamily again.... I liked another comics like Green lanterns/Deathstroke/Aquaman and another things but these IDOLS are special for me.

    The things change.. Don´t you like the current superman? Find another idol in DC/Marvel or in another place and forget the character...Or look for the equivalent of your ideal superman.. THIS CHANGE IS FOREVER.. Don´t you enjoy it? Don´t buy it.
    Last edited by adrikito; 03-11-2017 at 12:57 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrikito View Post
    Yes, I follow him because I see him a realistic and serious character focused in superman mythology..
    There was nothing abut NewSupes I could take seriously, he never even spoke like a real person.

    Actually, I think Supercrab suggesting "our" Superman caters to people who watch television or action movies does more to describe HIS kind of fan because, despite the feel-good fun factor of DC tv shows, a lot of other tv dramas are like the N52... pessimistic angst-driven levels of pseudo-mature crap that cater to the edgelord demographic

    And...rofl, the Batman comics are on a whole other level alright...you do know half of us are only enjoying King's run IRONICALLY right? The Catwoman romance and anything with Bane aside, the book's been terrible so far. Synder's All-Star is the supreme Bat-Book at the moment, and I'm not even a Snyder fanboy.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 03-11-2017 at 01:00 PM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    And the Ultimates line was so successful that it continues even today . . . NOT.
    What DC should have considered was more like Silver Age 2.0 . . . don't have New52 overwrite the pre-Flashpoint stories, but have the New52 be the world / the stories that DC focused on and published. The older continuity could still exist on another Earth that DC could reintroduce in the future after they felt they had a good basis for the New52 going so that it didn't feel like it was the supporting / minor / secondary continuity versus the pre-Flashpoint stories.
    Lol. The Ultimates was still MORE successful and continued for MUCH LONGER than the New 52 did. And if the decline of the Ultimates line should be a signal of anything, it should be that people prefer the CLASSIC CONTINUITY. People want to read about the Spider-Man who has been around since the sixties and had all those cool adventures and defining story arcs, not some fledgling character who hasn't done or been through any of those classic stories.

    And, again, the Ultimates was more successful and lasted almost 20 years, whereas the New 52 couldn't even last 6.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 03-11-2017 at 01:19 PM.

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