Following Myths Or Subverting Them

[spirit2011]

It feels like their's a struggle between WW following typical mythological tropes and subverting them.

Should Zeus be a benevolent father figure or a sexist scum bag as portrayed by Rucka and Simone?

Should Ares be a mentor or a villain?

Should the Amazons be like their mythological counterparts or different?

Should Heracles be a hero or villain?

Both takes seem to have their appeal depending on who you ask. So I guess the question is should WW primarily subvert myths or follow them to a T.

Depends. Amazons were damn real, so no reason to follow a sexist unreal myth.

the problem os myths they are twisted now to be more tasteful like Zeus and Hercules

Has Marvel ever touched upon the tragic story of Gullveig and the Vanir and how the Asgardians/Aesir aren't the sanitized angels they are made out to be?

i think they touched on it a bit.

[AmiMizuno]

Agreed both archeologists and historicals have found the Amazon societies were egalitarians.Both men and women were treated equally in all walks of their society. So the Greeks lied that the Amazons were female only and man haters.

[CRaymond]

Loathe as I am to start discussions of "blame", but shouldn't we acknowledge the "man-hating myth" has less to do with historical reports and more to do with writers creating the rule that "no man shall step foot on Paradise Island"?

[AmiMizuno]

I think the whole no man shall step foot on Paradise Island will show the extent of the abuse the Amazons faced in the comics. They were raped and abused. I do think this is what happens when you make things out of angry. I do think there can be way to keep law but making it logical. For Example, what if the doom gate opened and the Doom Gate took their hate for the men that abused them that the Island becomes dangerous to all men. By Sunset the men are turned into Monsters.

[Aioros22]

Agreed both archeologists and historicals have found the Amazon societies were egalitarians.Both men and women were treated equally in all walks of their society. So the Greeks lied that the Amazons were female only and man haters.

http://www.newyorker.com/books/joshu...n/real-amazons

Were Greek really Amazon haters?

[AmiMizuno]

A bunch of greek raiders kidnapped them. Many of the myths did have the Greeks, not like the Amazons.The men didn't like the Amazon equal culture and the women were great.Also from the Article.

The Greeks, by contrast, had a “uniquely dark mythic script: all Amazons must die, no matter how attractive, no matter how heroic.” The Greeks admired the Amazons—Mayor points out that, unlike other enemies of Greece, the Amazons are never represented in Greek art as fleeing from danger or begging for mercy. Lasting romance between a Greek man and an Amazon woman, though, is always portrayed as impossible. “Every Amazon that we hear about in Greek mythology is heroic—heroes who are the equals of the greatest male Greek heroes,” Mayor said. In Greek representations of Amazons, she believes, “you can discern some yearning and desire for some kind of resolution to the tension between ‘Yes, we want them as our companions,’ and ‘We couldn’t possibly, because we have to control our own women.’ “ At the same time, Amazons had a special place in the lives of Greek women. “Amazons were featured everywhere, on women’s pottery, on perfume jars, on jewelry boxes, on sewing equipment. Little girls played with Amazon dolls.” It’s a glimpse, Mayor says, into “a mystery of Greek private life.”

Here’s a story, told by Herodotus, about the fierce female warriors known as Amazons. Many thousands of years ago, a group of Greek raiders ventured into what is now northern Turkey. Travelling across the steppe, they came across a group of warrior women. The Greeks kidnapped them, locked them in the holds of their ships, and set sail for home. But the Amazons escaped. They recovered their weapons and killed their captors. Because they were horsewomen, and didn’t know how to sail, the ships drifted far off course. Eventually, though, they landed in the Crimea. The Amazons went ashore and stole some horses. They started marauding, gathering loot, and building up their strength.

[AmiMizuno]

So the Greeks hated the amazons due to the fact their weren't like real women act to them. However, the women loved the amazons. The men hated the amazons.

[Aioros22]

What I find interesting the most is that the article makes the point of saying that the Greeks seemed to be just aware of how patriarcal they were. They admired the amazons but wrote them as antagonists both to showcase their society strenghts and, in comic book terms, to have antagonists for their own heroes. That tug of war simbolizing both that forbidden yearn and desire.

To me that seems more complex than a simple lie.

[AmiMizuno]

True both lies and a deep desire to control the amazons.They wanted to make the Amazons like their own women but the Amazons aren't going to have it. The Greek myths were to turn the Amazons into evil women. I mean a few people do mention the Amazons cut off their breasts which is not true. So they want to take out their frusasations out on the Amazons.

[CRaymond]

To me that seems more complex than a simple lie.

Exactly. Amazons of myth were far more complicated than many writers would have us believe.

Marston's agenda was feminist utopias, and borrowed the Amazon legend to frame his ideology.

Subversion versus orthodoxy is a hollow argument when truth is nebulous.

[AmiMizuno]

The Amazons in history have been a peaceful society. They only went into battle if need be.

[Aioros22]

True both lies and a deep desire to control the amazons.They wanted to make the Amazons like their own women but the Amazons aren't going to have it. The Greek myths were to turn the Amazons into evil women. I mean a few people do mention the Amazons cut off their breasts which is not true. So they want to take out their frusasations out on the Amazons.

It goes beyond that I think. They yearn to make society with them or even to be like them. But that would ruin the structure of society they had built. It really comes across as forbidden love. Let`s also keep in mind that by saying "Greeks", we are talking of dozens of city states and some had different laws and all.

I don`t agree on "evil women" to begin with. It`s clear they respected their prowess and had an interest in their culture. In the stories of both the Heracles and Theseus invasons, so to speak, they don`t come across as evil. Antagonism isn`t necessarily evil, it`s just different. Their difference compared to their norm.

[AmiMizuno]

They stated in the article you put up they wanted to kill the Amazons but also want to love them. So it's really complex. So how should the greeks(the cities that have to meet the Amazons) Be with the Amazons? They do have hostile towards the Amazons and the men in the Amazons society.

The Greeks, by contrast, had a “uniquely dark mythic script: all Amazons must die, no matter how attractive, no matter how heroic

In the article many of the men wanted to kill the Amazons and didn't think actually love was possible.

Lasting romance between a Greek man and an Amazon woman, though, is always portrayed as impossible

To the Amazons at times the Greeks can be enemies as they have kidnapped them and pillaged their homes. They did help the Greeks in the trojan war. So there is a love, hate relationship. Patriarch and egalitarian can't workout if no one changes. Amazons don't want anything to do with the patriarchal

[Joao]

What if Strife rolled an apple in Olympus, and Diana had to pick who gets it? Who would she pick? What would happen?

Diana would totally slice the apple in three equal parts. Now that's a good use for her sword!

[Joao]

I love Greek mythology and I think WW writers should at least consider the gods' main characteristics before writing them. BUT I voted subvert. Considering the gods are being written for our times, I expect at least some character development and complexity.

Greek myths can be a bit one-dimensional and dated. I think we can find a good balance between keeping it like the original and adapting to our times, making them beliveable characters who we can understand and identify with. I loved Hera in Azz run for that matter: she started as we know her, the shallow, vengeful wife, and developed to something with more layers.

Just take their creation, relation with other gods, myths and build around that. Before gods are different than humans, they're too humans, an exaggerated representation of ourselves. If humanity has changed, why souldn't they?