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  1. #46
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Here's my take on that.

    1. Writing-wise, the writers have to show off Wolverine's healing factor and adamantium skeleton. This requires him to charge through gunfire, eat hits, etc. So that's one reason.
    2. If we're looking for logical reasons why Wolverine isn't on the same level as Shang Chi or Daredevil (beyond either of them demonstrating superiority to him, which they have), it's simple. Wolverine HAS centuries of experience. He HAS been trained by the best. However, he doesn't keep himself at a razor's edge of skill. Why?

    Because he doesn't need to.

    The other guys, they know that if they eat a bullet, get stabbed, whatever, they're in serious trouble. They're going to be continuously honing their skills, keeping themselves as best they can, always improving, etc.

    Wolverine? How many times do we see him deciding to sit back and enjoy a brew and a cigar rather than working his ass off training? It's not that he sucks - when he does pick himself up and do a little work, he demonstrates he's really quite high up there, if not on Captain America level, then bloody close. But he doesn't train like that all the time. He has these crutches - adamantium bones (sometimes) and a healing factor - that allow him to slack off. While still being better than 98% of the fighters in the Marvel universe, he doesn't have to care so much that he's not top tier.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Here's my take on that.

    1. Writing-wise, the writers have to show off Wolverine's healing factor and adamantium skeleton. This requires him to charge through gunfire, eat hits, etc. So that's one reason.
    2. If we're looking for logical reasons why Wolverine isn't on the same level as Shang Chi or Daredevil (beyond either of them demonstrating superiority to him, which they have), it's simple. Wolverine HAS centuries of experience. He HAS been trained by the best. However, he doesn't keep himself at a razor's edge of skill. Why?

    Because he doesn't need to.

    The other guys, they know that if they eat a bullet, get stabbed, whatever, they're in serious trouble. They're going to be continuously honing their skills, keeping themselves as best they can, always improving, etc.

    Wolverine? How many times do we see him deciding to sit back and enjoy a brew and a cigar rather than working his ass off training? It's not that he sucks - when he does pick himself up and do a little work, he demonstrates he's really quite high up there, if not on Captain America level, then bloody close. But he doesn't train like that all the time. He has these crutches - adamantium bones (sometimes) and a healing factor - that allow him to slack off. While still being better than 98% of the fighters in the Marvel universe, he doesn't have to care so much that he's not top tier.
    I get that part ,It just on Rumbles those fights don't count as high end feats for him.It isn't like Spider-Man /Firelord or Black Panther/Surfer. Wolverine has tons of fights to establish he is on a certain level.

    I get how the board works it always assume high feat so wolverine loses against mister "chop the helicarrier in half" i get it but in rumbles wolverine regularly goes against "surfer" "firelord" aka Iron fist,Daredevil,etc and wins based on skill after how many fight would be safe to assume that Wolverine he is on a similar speed tier or esle how would they fight (of course the answer is that doesn't matter just the high end) but on rumbles is doesn't work that Wolverine needs implicit feats of speed.

    A pattern of fighting people that speed doesn't count as feat. The assumption is never Wolverine is fast enough the assumption on wolverine is jobbing Iron fist or Shang chi they forget how fast they are for plot reasons so Wolverine can win.

    I guess the question is why isn't pattern of fighting people and competing with them on that level confirmation of a person being on that level? After say 40 plus fights from a guy who had same type of training as Daredevil and Electra and has legit superhuman or enhanced reflexes why is still considered jobbing when he fights someone and not he is fast enough to fight them ?

    Why isn't consistecy against high level fighters a feat?

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Because if we go there people like deathstroke have "fought evenly" with Flashes many times but that doesn't make it legit either simply because outside of these fights Slade doesn't have independent feats of reacting in nanoseconds or having bullets touch his neck and then have his superspeed kick in to have the bullet become a statue to him , like the flashes do

    Simply put, this is an extension of the same logic. When daredevil does stuff like start reacting to get out of the path of a moving bullet from a standstill after it's come close enough to be visible in his glasses, and wolverine well....doesn't , it makes the showing similar to slade jobbing out wally but on a lesser scale

    Even then we run into stuff like captain america and batman bullet timing once or twice in their career but these are tossed out because of the sheer number of appearances they have had, where they do not do stuff like this on a consistent basis

    For wolverine to beat a bullet timer, he needs a history of bullet timing feats rather than a history of fighting bullet timers, and given a signficant portion of his "history" has been written already, I frankly don't see how he is getting the status anytime soon ( still possible with an in-comic powerup or something)

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Because if we go there people like deathstroke have "fought evenly" with Flashes many times but that doesn't make it legit either simply because outside of these fights Slade doesn't have independent feats of reacting in nanoseconds or having bullets touch his neck and then have his superspeed kick in to have the bullet become a statue to him , like the flashes do

    Simply put, this is an extension of the same logic. When daredevil does stuff like start reacting to get out of the path of a moving bullet from a standstill after it's come close enough to be visible in his glasses, and wolverine well....doesn't , it makes the showing similar to slade jobbing out wally but on a lesser scale

    Even then we run into stuff like captain america and batman bullet timing once or twice in their career but these are tossed out because of the sheer number of appearances they have had, where they do not do stuff like this on a consistent basis

    For wolverine to beat a bullet timer, he needs a history of bullet timing feats rather than a history of fighting bullet timers, and given a signficant portion of his "history" has been written already, I frankly don't see how he is getting the status anytime soon ( still possible with an in-comic powerup or something)
    That's the thing Wolverine feats are fighting bullet timers but like said i understand how board works no big deal

    As for Wolverine need a power up why to be a bullet timer ? Compare him DD
    1.Trained by mystic ninja.Both
    2.Enhanced human sense. Both

    You can even make arguments for why Wolverine could be faster but thats a topic for another day. It wouldn't be stretch if a writer decided that Wolverine a Hand ninja with enhanced human reflexes and strength can dodge bullets.

    Anyways this highest feat for person board and i get why it happens. No big deal he is just a couple panels away from this being a different topic.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Wolverine is frustrating character because victory against Shang chi,Iron Fist,Captain America,Deadpool etc which are supposed to Wolverine at his high end on this board are PIS because those guys have better high end feats.
    So just to be clear, when, picking out Iron Fist for instance, Wolverine has a previous fight against a less than fresh Iron Fist where he ends up flying out a window and rescued by Nightcrawler, you're arguing that was Logan getting jobbed out?

    Your "fights should count for more" goes both ways.

    Hell, by this logic, Panther completely ruins Wolverine, after all, they've had fights where Panther treated the guy like garbage.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 04-13-2015 at 08:01 AM.

  6. #51
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck911 View Post
    I get that part ,It just on Rumbles those fights don't count as high end feats for him.It isn't like Spider-Man /Firelord or Black Panther/Surfer. Wolverine has tons of fights to establish he is on a certain level.
    I understand the issue.

    Thing is, it's the same deal with a lot of people. But speed is something that was determined to be important on Rumbles a long time ago, and there are specific ways to look at how speed works. The board went with 'high-end feats consistent with presentation', and Wolverine's presentation isn't normally 'Someone as fast as Spiderman'.

    And yet, we have Spiderman versus Wolverine where Peter is explicitly noting that Wolverine is 'fast'. And starts wondering if Wolverine is faster than him.

    Wolverine never shows speed on this level, though, unless he's fighting someone who is quite likely jobbing to him. He doesn't deflect bullets, he doesn't do umpteen things in the amount of time it takes other people to do one, he doesn't have stuff like that even NEARLY on a regular basis. At best, he's regularly presented as someone in the area of Captain America in terms of speed, and has some actual speedfeats that go along with that kind of thing.

    He doesn't bullet-time - instead, he gets hit by bullets. He doesn't normal keep up with Peter Parker. He doesn't show the speed.

    The issue is that comic book writers don't seem to understand how much faster someone who can actually react to bullets should be by comparison to someone who can't, who is operating in the sort of ranges we see Captain America operate, or Wolverine himself. There's a significant gap.

    But when it comes to street-level martial arts fights, such gaps are often ignored. How is it that the Punisher manages so often to do decently or hold his own and get some licks in against Daredevil? And I wouldn't put Frank on the same level as Logan. Similarly over in DC, where Batman lands hits on Val, as an extreme example.

    If ALL we had to go on for Wolverine was the fact that he consistently, always takes it directly to Daredevil, to Spiderman, and to others of that speed and higher, when they're shown to be using their speed, then there would be a case. But it's not the case; we have plenty of instances and feats by which to actually have a look at how quick Wolverine is. And he doesn't seem to be on a bullet-timing level. Certainly it's extremely out of whack that he could give any kind of fight to Spiderman, given the disparity in their stats, but he does just that in Spiderman Vs Wolverine, and tags Peter in other fights/spars, etc (granted, in other fights Peter treats him like complete trash, so that certainly puts a nail in the coffin of Wolverine the Bullet-Timer as well...).
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

  7. #52
    Mighty Member abmccray's Avatar
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    The issue as to how people like Captain America and Black Panther -should- beat Wolverine is simple.

    Wolverine heals from all kinds of crazy stuff, quickly, but should still get 10 counts from major damage to places that aren't protected by his skeleton. For instance, Cap's shield could cut open his throat, which would cut off blood flow, and air to his brain, and KO him until it heals back up. Enough damage to things like his stomach (ripping out portions of it, which BP's claws should do), muscles, etc. would slow him down enough to incapacitate him in other ways. And mystical martial arts nerve strikes don't really have much to do with what a healing factor should affect.

    Therefore, someone just barely better than him or one small tier above him, like Cap and BP are normally portrayed as, should have a majority on him as long as they have some kind of cutting weapon, due to knowing what to target.

    The issue is, sometimes, he's written as just tanking stuff like that. Nerve strikes work sometimes and they don't - his throat is slit, and he stumbles for a panel, then it heals, etc. And a lot of this is due to his healing factor, which is horribly inconsistent, and which has multiple in-plot explanations at times as to why it's horribly inconsistent. So, it's kind of hard to pin down exactly what will affect him, which is typically why a lot of people just go "depends on where you place it" with him.

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    I understand the issue.
    I actually, really at the end of the day, don't, and Wolverine is illustrative of why, because with him particularly that would be a case of "when I say Wolverine's fights should count, I mean the ones where he looks good."

    If ALL we had to go on for Wolverine was the fact that he consistently, always takes it directly to Daredevil, to Spiderman
    Interesting fact: he doesn't consistently do so. Spiderman has actually on several occasions massively humiliated Wolverine. I know you want to engage in this argument like it's a reasonable thing, and kudos to you, I've obviously tried to do so myself a few times, but this argument is especially why we bother to do things here like we do.

  9. #54
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Interesting fact: he doesn't consistently do so. Spiderman has actually on several occasions massively humiliated Wolverine. I know you want to engage in this argument like it's a reasonable thing, and kudos to you, I've obviously tried to do so myself a few times, but this argument is especially why we bother to do things here like we do.
    There, I was just making a point that IF this were the case... :) The point being that if some character has ONLY fights to go on, and we see speed being used, and that character keeps up, etc... That's a different matter.

    It isn't, I know - there's Secret Wars (where he slaps him away), there's the time Peter left Wolverine webbed up in an alley with his fists pressed against his skull, there's the time he punted Logan out the window of Stark Tower or whatever it was called, there's the time he basically whaled on him unopposed during training because Logan actually cut him (though Logan cutting him was a bit of a "?" moment for me) to the tune of 'Arrgh, Peter, Ack, take it easy, urgh!', etc. Probably others.

    There are times where Matt does quite well against Wolverine (recently, in fact, if I'm recalling correctly, the main issue being putting Logan DOWN). And there's Shang Chi dancing around him, beating him with sticks. And others, I'm sure.

    .....

    I'll still take the kudos, mind. Always. ^_^
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    I actually, really at the end of the day, don't, and Wolverine is illustrative of why, because with him particularly that would be a case of "when I say Wolverine's fights should count, I mean the ones where he looks good."



    Interesting fact: he doesn't consistently do so. Spiderman has actually on several occasions massively humiliated Wolverine. I know you want to engage in this argument like it's a reasonable thing, and kudos to you, I've obviously tried to do so myself a few times, but this argument is especially why we bother to do things here like we do.
    I thought of better way of asking doesn't Wolverine consistently jobbing guys mean he is in a higher tier speed wise than given credit?

    It isn't about winning it more about how badly does he lose the a fight between Wolverine and Iron Fist from my understanding should be like Forrest Griffin and Anderson Silva and not Anderson versus a person who has never fought and can't track his speed.Both are one side ass whooping but one them have a clear understanding the other person belongs in fight and has method of competing .

    Like i said i understand how board works even if it is implied wolverine is better than him seems ,It is the actual high end feat and it consistently happening is what matters in the end here.I pick Black Panther win to the fight.It just couple of case rare like Batman or Wolverine where their body of work implies they could be higher and i stupidly make grumpy comment that won't go anywhere

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    It isn't about winning it more about how badly does he lose the a fight between Wolverine and Iron Fist from my understanding should be like Forrest Griffin and Anderson Silva and not Anderson versus a person who has never fought and can't track his speed.Both are one side ass whooping but one them have a clear understanding the other person belongs in fight and has method of competing .
    Iron Fist is in a sequence where he's operating with difficulty of using his abilities and having problems with being drained. Wolverine takes him on and basically has all his shots avoided or stopped, and ultimately Danny dodges him such that Wolverine goes flying out the window of the building they are fighting in and gets saved by Nightcrawler. While Danny was certainly trying hard in said fight, he was also at less than his best. At this point Nightcrawler, Colossus and Wolverine all take Danny on together. He holds his own against all of them at once taking him on. So which counts more, that, or when Wolverine bested him in a sparring match?

    even if it is implied wolverine is better than him seems
    How do repeated humiliations by Spiderman fit with that being "implied"?

    It just couple of case rare like Batman or Wolverine where their body of work implies they could be higher
    Only if you're selective about their body of work in a way that manages to be more arbitrary than how we do things here, is the problem, and is what people are saying. You talk about what Wolverine's fights should show about Wolverine, but in order to do that, you ignore fights that show very much the opposite. Why do the fights that show what you want to say is implied count for what is implied, but the ones that show otherwise, don't count? That this question is a consequence of your argument is why we bothered to start how we do things here with "okay, what are we going to use logic to say counts and doesn't?"

  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    It's the problem, as a contrasting example, with the people in this thread who tried "well Panther totally humiliated Wolverine here", and okay, and this other fight with Wolverine where that didn't remotely happen doesn't count because...

    And so forth.

  13. #58
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luck911 View Post
    I thought of better way of asking doesn't Wolverine consistently jobbing guys mean he is in a higher tier speed wise than given credit?
    Not really. He doesn't have feats for bullet-timing. He doesn't have feats for nearly superspeed stuff on the level of the guys doing bullet-timing stuff.

    It's the rules of the board. And not only that, it's the simplest explanation between the two following ideas:

    1. Wolverine is as fast as those bullet-timers he fights, including Spiderman. His lack of speed feats, even when he'd need them, is just writers - all writers - writing him bizarrely slower than he should be, even though they know he's faster because they write him putting up a fight against the guys who are supposed to be superfast.

    2. Wolverine isn't as fast as a bullet-timer, but more in the range of Captain America, with whom he has fought reasonably equally for the most part, and him keeping up with those bullet-timers is the usual Speed-issue PIS that is seen in comics all the time (and not just for him).

    Out of the two, #2 is much more logical, given the wide evidence toward speed being an issue in general in comics, what with superspeed characters nearly always getting written poorly in order to have a fight.

    Like i said i understand how board works even if it is implied wolverine is better than him seems ,It is the actual high end feat and it consistently happening is what matters in the end here.I pick Black Panther win to the fight.It just couple of case rare like Batman or Wolverine where their body of work implies they could be higher and i stupidly make grumpy comment that won't go anywhere
    I understand being grumpy when a character we like doesn't do as well, but we try to set that aside on Rumbles. Or should, in any case. ^_^
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

  14. #59
    Incredible Member buutenks's Avatar
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    Wolverine can be koed??I thought his high healing factor prevents that.

  15. #60
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Depends who is writing him, and how they view his healing factor on that day. Seriously, that thing swings around like a yoyo.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

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