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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfang View Post
    Honestly I am happy with Peter being single and/or casually dating, it's nothing against Mary-Jane herself but in my opinion and through the eyes of a "wannabe author" it opens up a lot of creative potential to do with the character, whereas being married there are certain dramatic aspects, emotions and mentality that are expected (but not necessarily have to be) to be in check. I also liked how Ben was handled, others might complain that he was "ruined", but geez you revive a guy only to kill him a dozen or so times you can't expect him to be "all there" mentally, which is where I'm assuming the new persona came into play along with the sort of Clone Utopia. Hey at least Ben's back, and he's going to be a hero again in his new book (call him an antihero or villainous hero all you want but the cover depicting a costumed 'spider-man' webbing up crooks doesn't sound too villainous to me).
    I think MJ will be back in Peter's life eventually. They will at least be friends again.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesedique View Post
    Right, and I know that's what you think you see in your crystal ball.
    No. It's what I see from over a quarter of a century in this industry and a long history of working for Marvel through multiple administrations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesedique View Post
    There was a time when many possibly thought that Norman Osborn would never be brought back...
    This isn't a villain being brought back from the dead which LITERALLY happens all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesedique View Post
    There was a time when many possibly thought that Spider-Man would not change costumes for any significant amount of time...
    Look, I'm going to cut you off here.
    You're incorrect.
    This isn't a "let's argue about it" or "let's debate it".
    This is fact. This is in stone. This is a done deal.
    There is no administration in the near or distant future that will ever reinstate the marriage to the core continuity version of Spider-Man EVER again.
    Could the two of them become a couple again? Yes. That could happen.
    Could there be an alternate continuity where they're married? You bet. And we worked to make that happen.
    Will they ever be married again? Never.
    Is there some future person out there who loves the marriage and will someday wind up a creator or editor at Marvel? Could happen.
    Will they be able to reinstate the marriage of these two Marvel characters?
    No.
    A person who believes that's a scenario that could happen does not have a realistic grasp on how a company/corporate entity like Marvel functions.
    That's the reality of the situation.
    Last edited by Dan Slott; 03-10-2017 at 01:37 PM.

  3. #18
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    Marvel is hellbent on making Peter Parker a teenager. Either through the movies, cartoons, new teen Spidey comics, or the main writer actively and intentionally crafting stories where the protagonist has the emotional intelligence and maturity of a child.

    In what universe would they ever make him a married adult in their main books. Its literally the exact opposite of every single action they've taken for 20+ years now.

  4. #19
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    Dan, do you think it might be true to say that we'll never see the "real" Peter married ever again - not just to MJ but to anyone?

    To Cheesedique: obviously Dan doesn't have a crystal ball that tells the future, but he does have years of direct experience in the realm of Marvel and knows how decisions are made - to the point that he can make better predictions than any of us can about what may happen in the future.

    -Pav, who doesn't like it when smart people argue past each other...
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  5. #20
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    As far the question if OMD will ever be undone in the comics, I think the answer is: "No, it won't...under current management." There's a very good chance that the future staff of Marvel will include creators and writer who either prefer the pre-OMD setup or want to write in that vein. That's basically how OMD came about; the Powers That Be wanted "their" Spider-Man back and had the power to do it. It stands to reason that they may chose to undo it.

    There's also the problem that, while the 616 comics highly support OMD, the rest of the franchise does not. Think about it. Mary Jane was the leading lady in the original movies (made at a time when Marvel was trying to give her the boot in the comics, too), the Mark Webb movies were working to introduce her into their series before it was canceled, and the big rumor about the new movies is that she'll be playing a major role (I'm skeptical, but there it is). And that's not even going into other other tie-ins (like the Spider-Man Unlimited app game, for example) tend to ignore the spirit of OMD. I recall seeing a post-OMD character guide that still cited Mary Jane being the love of Peter's life. Heck, the Mary Jane action figure this year is part of a two pack with the Parker Industries costume Spider-Man despite how inaccurate that is to the series the latter comes from. You can cite other examples, but the point is, as a whole, the idea of Spider-Man and Mary Jane being an item is still what the franchise's normality looks like.

    There's also the fact that the fanbase isn't letting go either. As I recall, after OMD day was made, the Powers That Be dismissed the outrage from the readers as dying down in a couple years. We're ten years after the fact and it's still going on. Comics with the character back in ASM tend to do better. The RYV miniseries was the best-selling Spider-Man comic of it's release year and marketed solely under the idea of being a reunion for the Parkers. (Also note that, despite it's lower sales, the RYV ongoing has been far better received than it's 616 counterparts have in recent months. There is a market for this ostensibly outmoded take on the character.)

    So, maybe the 616 comics will never bring back the Parkers as a married couple, but I think those comics are loosing its relevance to the franchise as a whole as the defining element. The past couple movie series have been using Ultimate Spider-Man as the main source material -- and said series is decidedly very anti-OMD, interestingly enough. Most fans don't even read the comics but watch the adaptations, which are far closer to classic Spider-Man than anything post-OMD.

    So, do I think that OMD will be undone? Possibly not. But, what Slott and Marvel are missing is that the Spider-Man/Mary Jane marriage/relationship is too engrained in franchise for the embargo to really work that well. The rest of the franchise overall continues to treat it favorably, which is what informs the general consumer's views on what the franchise should be (I can attest; I was introduced to Spider-Man through the original movies; that defines what I think the essential elements of the character and his world are). Taking the big picture look at it, OMD has been a failure in trying to change the face of the character and get fans onboard (yes, there are some readers who like it or don't really care as long as the series continues, but that's the case with anything rooted in subjectivity). As Firefly put it: "You can't stop the signal."

    (Also, say I'm totally wrong and OMD will never go away and gets vindicated by history; all I can say on my part, for supporting the pre-OMD versions of this franchise, is that I agree with this Firefly quote [said when Mal Reynolds was asked about fighting on the wrong side of a war]: "May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.")

  6. #21
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    I think they're more anti-marriage then anti-Mary Jane. All Peter's romantic relationships are destined to be A) be compared to his union with Mary-Jane and pale in comparison and B) ultimately failures that could never sustain long-term success since Marvel went out of their way to cosmetically stop that very thing from happening. Marriage is the ultimate symbol of adulthood, of maturity, of being "old". Marvel has spent the better part of 20 years trying to make Peter Parker as non-adult as possible. If they could go back in time and stop Stan Lee from graduating Peter Parker from high school so fast, they would.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViewtifulJC View Post
    I think they're more anti-marriage then anti-Mary Jane. All Peter's romantic relationships are destined to be A) be compared to his union with Mary-Jane and pale in comparison and B) ultimately failures that could never sustain long-term success since Marvel went out of their way to cosmetically stop that very thing from happening. Marriage is the ultimate symbol of adulthood, of maturity, of being "old". Marvel has spent the better part of 20 years trying to make Peter Parker as non-adult as possible. If they could go back in time and stop Stan Lee from graduating Peter Parker from high school so fast, they would.
    Fair enough. I heartily agree with point A for sure.

    I will concede that, when it comes to the material, I'm not exactly that fussy about the details. If we see the characters in a committed relationship, I'm not really going to complain if that looks like a marriage or simply seriously dating or something. I think both versions have their place.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    No. It's what I see from over a quarter of a century in this industry and a long history of working for Marvel through multiple administrations.


    This isn't a villain being brought back from the dead which LITERALLY happens all the time.


    Look, I'm going to cut you off here.
    You're incorrect.
    This isn't a "let's argue about it" or "let's debate it".
    This is fact. This is in stone. This is a done deal.
    There is no administration in the near or distant future that will ever reinstate the marriage to the core continuity version of Spider-Man EVER again.
    Could the two of them become a couple again? Yes. That could happen.
    Could there be an alternate continuity where they're married? You bet. And we worked to make that happen.
    Will they ever be married again? Never.
    Is there some future person out there who loves the marriage and will someday wind up a creator or editor at Marvel? Could happen.
    Will they be able to reinstate the marriage of these two Marvel characters?
    No.
    A person who believes that's a scenario that could happen does not have a realistic grasp on how a company/corporate entity like Marvel functions.
    That's the reality of the situation.

    This is comics. It's foolhardy to maintain anything is "set in stone".

    How many status quo changes / universe resets go down in comics LITERALLY all the time, from DC to Marvel? Hell, every other storyline of current ASM is supposed to be a game-changer.

    The truth is, despite Marvel Comics' attempts to bury Mary Jane, she's as popular as ever, if not arguably more so.

    The Mary Jane Iron Spider cover gave ASM a nice sales uptick last summer, and the ASM variants featuring her do brisk business.

    Marvel is about reprint the proposal, wedding, and honeymoon issues in the upcoming ASM Epic Collection this summer. So much for throwing that all down the memory hole.

    Anyway Dan, good buddy, I will screen cap all of this and stick it in a time capsule. You just never know.

    (Somewhere in the future, a kid that grew up with and loved the Michelinie / Mackie / JMS-era comics is filling out his Marvel Editor-In-Chief new-hire paperwork.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Dan, do you think it might be true to say that we'll never see the "real" Peter married ever again - not just to MJ but to anyone?

    To Cheesedique: obviously Dan doesn't have a crystal ball that tells the future, but he does have years of direct experience in the realm of Marvel and knows how decisions are made - to the point that he can make better predictions than any of us can about what may happen in the future.

    -Pav, who doesn't like it when smart people argue past each other...
    Point taken, but I think telling an audience "you can't ever have this" is sure-fire way of ensuring they will keep clamoring for it until the end of time.


    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    (Also, say I'm totally wrong and OMD will never go away and gets vindicated by history; all I can say on my part, for supporting the pre-OMD versions of this franchise, is that I agree with this Firefly quote [said when Mal Reynolds was asked about fighting on the wrong side of a war]: "May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.")
    Love it! Cheers to that, WebLurker.


    Quote Originally Posted by ViewtifulJC View Post
    I think they're more anti-marriage then anti-Mary Jane. All Peter's romantic relationships are destined to be A) be compared to his union with Mary-Jane and pale in comparison and B) ultimately failures that could never sustain long-term success since Marvel went out of their way to cosmetically stop that very thing from happening. Marriage is the ultimate symbol of adulthood, of maturity, of being "old". Marvel has spent the better part of 20 years trying to make Peter Parker as non-adult as possible. If they could go back in time and stop Stan Lee from graduating Peter Parker from high school so fast, they would.
    The curse of Mephisto / OMD has ensured that they can't realistically have Peter end up with any other love interest now. Fittingly so, as that's how Faustian bargains work (or is the theme of "The Monkey's Paw" story applicable here?).

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    As far the question if OMD will ever be undone in the comics, I think the answer is: "No, it won't...under current management." There's a very good chance that the future staff of Marvel will include creators and writer who either prefer the pre-OMD setup or want to write in that vein.
    No. There are a LOT of assumptions in there that are unfounded and unrealistic.
    You're assuming that there are "no writers now who either prefer the pre-OMD setup or want to write in that vein."
    There are.
    It's not happening.
    Ever.
    It's never, ever going to happen.
    There is more going on then just people willing or wanting to write for that set up.
    There is no person, no matter how passionately they cared about the pre-OMD setup who could ever make it through all the steps and paces to get to a position of editorial power AND be given the reins of the Spider-Unit who would EVER be allowed to put this back into play.
    There is no lottery ticket BIG enough that anyone could win it, buy Marvel, and make this status quo happen.
    It's NEVER, EVER, EVER coming about.
    No matter how much you want it.
    It ain't happening.
    There is NO possible path to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    That's basically how OMD came about; the Powers That Be wanted "their" Spider-Man back and had the power to do it.
    That is a gross over-simplification of what happened.
    And it ignores the countless previous attempts to undo the marriage status quo.
    It wasn't some magic concurrence of "THESE GUYS" want to undo it.
    EVERYONE in power was working on how to undo it NOT THAT LONG INTO THE MARRIAGE.
    The undoing was going to happen. It was just a matter of when.
    Now that it HAS happened, it AIN'T unhappening.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    It stands to reason that they may chose to undo it.
    Not really. Because your premise of why-and-how it happened isn't accurate, and the obstacles against the inverse happening are-- when you understand the larger forces at work here-- are INSURMOUNTABLE.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    There's also the problem that, while the 616 comics highly support OMD, the rest of the franchise does not.
    The "616" comics have to fulfill a purpose/function that NONE OF THE OTHER FRANCHISES do. Your line of arguing does not hold.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    There's also the fact that the fanbase isn't letting go either.
    A small and stubborn section of the fanbase.
    Yet that didn't stop the current version from being the highest regular selling Marvel super hero comic.
    It didn't stop the book from having some of the highest selling comic issues of this century.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    (Also note that, despite it's lower sales, the RYV ongoing has been far better received than it's 616 counterparts have in recent months. There is a market for this ostensibly outmoded take on the character.)
    There's a paradox in this last quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    (Also, say I'm totally wrong and OMD will never go away and gets vindicated by history; all I can say on my part, for supporting the pre-OMD versions of this franchise, is that I agree with this Firefly quote [said when Mal Reynolds was asked about fighting on the wrong side of a war]: "May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.")
    And that's completely fair to feel that way. That's cool.
    All I'm saying is, there are forces at work and concerns far greater than "if a writer wanted to do this" and even "if an editor wanted to do this".
    And, on a Darwinian level, there is no way anyone will ever get through the system to become someone in power who would implement a reinstating of the marriage.
    It just ain't happening.
    Last edited by Dan Slott; 03-10-2017 at 03:26 PM.

  10. #25
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    I get the picture of "OMD will be reversed" truthers writing with chalks on the walls, formulas and Mary Jane Watson pictures decorated everywhere. "Ok, so it wasn't reversed THIS issue, but its only been 3285 days, just a little over 200 issues...tomorrow...tomorrow for sure...they teased it in that one Daredevil issue and Spider-Man/Deadpool...yes, tomorrow it will be reversed"

  11. #26
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    methinks thou doth protest too much! anyway if that's how the status quo will be then will spider man have to ultimately greet RYV counterpart in 616 as a resolution like the convoluted situation with nuperman and superdad currently in DC which has their fanbases up in arms? after all there may be yet another war which may lead to integration of the RYW reality with 616 like it happened with miles.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesedique View Post
    This is comics. It's foolhardy to maintain anything is "set in stone".
    It's set in stone.
    It's not foolhardy.
    It's MORE than comics-- it's a business. And it operates on a different level. And it's not as simplistic as "what if enough people thought like me and/or if THEY were in power."

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesedique View Post
    The truth is, despite Marvel Comics' attempts to bury Mary Jane...
    No one's burying her. She could be in the book tomorrow.
    Not the marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesedique View Post
    The Mary Jane Iron Spider cover gave ASM a nice sales uptick last summer, and the ASM variants featuring her do brisk business.
    Every con: Spider-Gwen hoodies as far as the eye can see.
    What's your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesedique View Post
    Anyway Dan, good buddy, I will screen cap all of this and stick it in a time capsule.
    If you made this post 9 years ago and stuck it in a time capsule that we just opened, you'd see you were wrong.
    Same will happen next year at the 10 year anniversary.
    And for as long as they publish the core in-continuity Spider-Man book.
    The marriage is NOT getting reinstated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesedique View Post
    You just never know.
    We do. The people who understand how Marvel works know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesedique View Post
    (Somewhere in the future, a kid that grew up with and loved the Michelinie / Mackie / JMS-era comics is filling out his Marvel Editor-In-Chief new-hire paperwork.)
    Those people are in their 40's now.
    And the fact you think it's the EIC who could magically make this happen is kinda quaint.

  13. #28
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    I can think of at least 3 specific things we could do in the book tomorrow (NOT MJ or marriage related) that would cause a boost in sales-- and that we WON'T do. (And, no, I won't tell you what those are.)

    Because there are battles you fight and there are wars you win.

    There are elements of this job which are about brand management. I could go into how and why this works, but I'm not going to.
    There are factors at work here that are not taken into consideration by fans.
    There are things fans don't even add into their "math" when they think about outcomes that they'd like (like, in this case, reinstating the marriage).
    Yes, everyone who works in comics IS a fan. No one falls into the job of writer or editor or editor-in-chief by accident.
    Everyone who works in comics does this because we dearly love it.
    But there are aspects to this job where if you approach it PURELY as a fan and DON'T take those factors into account-- you will NOT survive. You will NOT get certain assignments. You will NOT reach certain levels or positions. You will NOT get to affect the changes you would like. And because of that, there are some changes/choices/concepts that WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Not oh-maybe-someday-the-right-person-will-end-up-in-the-right-place-and-THEN-it'll-happen! NO. NEVER. Again, it's about fighting battles vs. winning wars.

    Some days I wish the MJ-marriage-fans could understand the amount of water I had to carry-- and the political mine fields I had to dance through-- to GET Renew Your Vows to happen. THAT was a longshot. And THAT was in an alternate reality. You are NEVER getting that close again. (And, BTW, you're welcome.)
    Last edited by Dan Slott; 03-10-2017 at 04:20 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    It's set in stone.
    It's not foolhardy.
    It's MORE than comics-- it's a business. And it operates on a different level. And it's not as simplistic as "what if enough people thought like me and/or if THEY were in power."
    Hypothetical: if there was reason to believe bringing back the marriage would increase publishing revenue by 40%, why would Marvel not do it? If, you know, it's all about business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    Every con: Spider-Gwen hoodies as far as the eye can see.
    What's your point?
    And there's loads of 'Spinneret' cosplay out there as well. What's yours?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    Those people are in their 40's now.
    And the fact you think it's the EIC who could magically make this happen is kinda quaint.
    An EIC ordered it to happen (Shooter) and an EIC ordered it reversed (Queseda). So why exactly couldn't an EIC order it done again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    There are elements of this job which are about brand management. I could go into how and why this works, but I'm not going to.
    And how does Parker Industries fit into the "brand management"?

  15. #30
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    There are factors at work here that are not taken into consideration by fans.
    There are things fans don't even add into their "math" when they think about outcomes that they'd like (like, in this case, reinstating the marriage).
    Yes, everyone who works in comics IS a fan. No one falls into the job of writer or editor or editor-in-chief by accident.
    Everyone who works in comics does this because we dearly love it.
    But there are aspects to this job where if you approach it PURELY as a fan and DON'T take those factors into account-- you will NOT survive. You will NOT get certain assignments. You will NOT reach certain levels or positions. You will NOT get to affect the changes you would like. And because of that, there are some changes/choices/concepts that WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Not oh-maybe-someday-the-right-person-will-end-up-in-the-right-place-and-THEN-it'll-happen! NO. NEVER. Again, it's about fighting battles vs. winning wars.

    Some days I wish the MJ-marriage-fans could understand the amount of water I had to carry-- and the political mine fields I had to dance through-- to GET Renew Your Vows to happen. THAT was a longshot. And THAT was in an alternate reality. You are NEVER getting that close again. (And, BTW, you're welcome.)
    Goodnight, everybody!

    -Pav, who is gonna go trust scientists now...
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