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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    There is no amount of writer-clout in the world that could make this happen. Zero.
    J.K. Rowling could show up tomorrow and ask this.
    Wouldn't happen.
    It is not a question of clout.


    You heard wrong. Never happened. With his outside-of-comics commitments it took Marvel 3 years to get all of SPIDER-MAN/BLACK CAT: THE EVIL THAT MEN DO out of Kevin Smith. To date, DAREDEVIL/BULLSEYE: THE TARGET was started in 2002 and still hasn't been finished. Marvel had hired Steve Wacker away from DC (where he edited the weekly comic, 52) specifically to edit a 3X a month AMAZING SPIDER-MAN run. This was planned before a writing team had been chosen and any writer had been approached to pick up the writing baton after JMS had wrapped up his run. None of what you heard syncs up at all with the reality of what was going on behind the scenes. Sorry. Chalk it up to an urban myth or internet gossip.
    Are Parker Industries days numbered?

  2. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    They let Grant Morrison "waltz" in to overhaul the X-Men, similar to Whedon "waltz"-ing for his X-Men take.

    They let Mark Millar "waltz" in and unmask Peter Parker, which led to about a year's worth or more of storylines before it was unmade (messily, by OMD / OMIT the latter of which took years to fully explain how the nuts & bolts of the identity reveal was reversed)

    And was it really an "ungodly hassle" to reverse course on the Peter / MJ marriage? It was done basically over a padded 4-issue arc, and then they just launched into a new continuity.

    You may be correct though in the fact that they don't care to save face on the story, but as someone above mentioned, it is a "self-inflicted wound" of a story Marvel will have to carry that will continue to hang over the franchise.



    This is what I was thinking of, which actually predated OMD by quite awhile. I'll walk it back, though perhaps only in Smith's mind he aimed to also write ASM as well as The Evil That Men Do:



    http://www.viewaskew.com/news/apr02/2.html
    Millar only go to unmask Spidey because One More Day was coming.

    It wasn't a story he would have been invited to do otherwise.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by rward777 View Post
    Are Parker Industries days numbered?
    he won't answer that. It will be spoiling his own story plot and surprise element.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Millar only go to unmask Spidey because One More Day was coming.

    It wasn't a story he would have been invited to do otherwise.
    And you know this how? Got a link?

  5. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    And you know this how? Got a link?
    It's common knowledge that Millar did that particular beat because he knew how the story would end.

    Here's Quesada's recollection in an interview shortly after One More Day came out.

    Close to two years ago at one of our creative summits, the seeds of that idea began to blossom. Those ideas were then taken and a two week long e-mail chain began where we started to throw around ideas until we got the story kind of where we wanted it to be. The guys involved in all of this from the beginning were Joe, Bendis, Millar, Loeb, Tom Brevoort, Axel Alonso and myself. It then all carried over to the next summit, at which Ed Brubaker and Dan Slott also had some stuff to add. It was at one of these summits that JMS said the methodology we were using was more akin to the movie "Sliding Doors" than "Back to the Future." Rather than a single incident not happening that causes a huge domino effect across the timeline, he explained it was more like one door that wasn’t taken or opened that only changed the subtlest of things.

    In the end, knowing what that story was going to be is what allowed us to go ahead with the unmasking of Spider-Man in "Civil War" — we had our "way out" ahead of time, it was a great place to be.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by theoneandonly View Post
    man when is that crossover ending? it is one of the most disjointed plots I have come across with stuff just happening and spidergwen always beating up miles dad alternate dimension version or maybe not and her future fathr in law in one but he comes back for more for reasons I can't begin to fathom.
    No kidding. The crossover killed all interest I have in the title. Maybe I will come back, but I was a faithful reader and now they have to win me back.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    It's common knowledge that Millar did that particular beat because he knew how the story would end.

    Here's Quesada's recollection in an interview shortly after One More Day came out.
    Makes sense now, thanks for the link.

    The guys involved in all of this from the beginning were Joe, Bendis, Millar, Loeb, Tom Brevoort, Axel Alonso and myself. It then all carried over to the next summit, at which Ed Brubaker and Dan Slott also had some stuff to add.
    Does seem to confirm though that Dan had more of a hand in formulating OMD than people probably think.

  8. #248
    All-New Member duke togo's Avatar
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    Haven't posted about this in a very long time, but all this topic has reminded me of was how much I hated what Marvel did with OMD. The book has pretty much felt like a parallel universe Spider-Man book since then. Still, at the end of the day, could most of the stories told since then be done with a married Spider-Man? Pretty much.

    Despite Dan Slott telling us it could never happen, crazier things happen all the time. If for some weird reason Isaac Perlmutter decided he had a hair over his ass that was driving him insane with Peter not being married to MJ, I'm sure he could get things moving to make it happen. It may not happen anytime soon, but Peter and MJ being married again, is NOT impossible, just unlikely.

    Either way, I hope OMD is one day reversed and we have Peter and MJ back together again. If not I'm sure I'll be bitching about OMD for the rest of my life like many others even if I read the book or if I don't.

  9. #249
    Astonishing Member theoneandonly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    No kidding. The crossover killed all interest I have in the title. Maybe I will come back, but I was a faithful reader and now they have to win me back.
    it seems they just had to have a crossover with no serious thought put in as to the plot or character interactions.miles and Gwen just hug each issue for no reason.miles dad I'd getting beaten up each issue whether it be a doppelganger or his real one. the tension regarding miles dads fate after some excellent built up in in previous issues just fades away into oblivion. there is no shield oversight and it just ends up as a dispolar Alice in wonderland like story. I wonder if it is the Bendis effect or whether they are ensuring the fans of said characters never ask for another crossover. like spider woman said this is one of the worst teamups. wonder if it has to do something with the baggage of OMD or sins past which has deemed that romance is a strict doomed issue in marvel comics.
    Last edited by theoneandonly; 03-15-2017 at 12:47 PM.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Does seem to confirm though that Dan had more of a hand in formulating OMD than people probably think.
    Not really. If you work out the timeline, the "It then all carried over to the next summit, at which Ed Brubaker and Dan Slott also had some stuff to add..."-- that was my first Marvel Retreat.

    That was a retreat where Civil War was in full swing, Spider-Man's unmasking in CW had already been decided, and JMS had already run everyone in the room on the concept of OMD in the retreat before. I was brought into my first retreat for 2 reasons:

    1. Two of the core Marvel writers were sick and/or couldn't make it, and there were empty seats at the table. By living in NYC, I was an easy person for Marvel to go to, because they didn't have to fly me in or put me up in a hotel.

    2. They were planning the aftermath of Civil War, Millar had clearly set up the Initiative, but no writer was moving on the idea as a series. Peoples' interests were in other places. I'd heard about the Initiative and ran a pitch for it by some people-- who liked it-- so they thought it would be good to have me in the room to pitch it in person.

    Now keep in mind-- at this point in time, I was the writer on two low-selling titles/cult titles: SHE-HULK and THE THING. I did not have much "coin" to spend in that room. I did throw out some ideas for all kinds of things to help out in the room-- and people liked my Initiative take enough for it to be greenlit in the room as a new book for me-- but the idea that the SHE-HULK/THING guy was going to make any major change to JMS' ASM storyline-- especially one that was on the tracks and that important-- is kinda silly.

    It was after my 2nd retreat, where I'd performed really well (and the Initiative was doing well) that Wacker and the powers that be thought I'd be a good addition to the multi-writer team that would be following JMS. (I'd also conspicuously shoe-horned Spidey into everything I'd been working on-- SHE-HULK, THING, and A:TI for guest issues and multiple cameos. It was very UN-subtle.) And that was something I didn't find out about till after my 2nd retreat.

    Cut to the 1st Spider-Retreat (a min-retreat just for the BND Spider-Writers), that is the first and only time I (and the other writers) had any input into OMD in any meaningful way that stuck. JMS kept switching between TWO versions of OMD:

    1 where the bargain altered time from AMAZING SPIDER-MAN Vol. 1 #96 (the Goblin/Harry drug issues).

    And 2, where the bargain altered time from the WEDDING ANNUAL.

    The first choice was the one JMS felt passionate about. But at one of the retreats, the Powers That Be, editorial, and pretty much everyone in the room (except for Joe Q and one of the writers) voted that version down because it altered too much continuity. There was a common consensus (that Joe Q agreed with too) that as little continuity should be disturbed as possible. That through whatever means ONLY the wedding story itself should be altered, and that practically every story you saw since took place exactly the way it happened in the comics, with the exception that Peter & MJ were living together and not married. JMS wanted an altered continuity that was so drastically different from EVERYTHING that took place in Marvel Publishing since 1971, that Gwen Stacy would still be alive-- had been alive all those years-- and would be up and walking about in the current book Post-OMD.

    I was one-- of practically all the bodies in that room-- who, in that binary choice, voted that version down in favor of the one that would cause the least amount of continuity ripples.

    At the 1st Spidey Retreat, all the BND writers were given the option to veto that. If we wanted, we could give the okay for the ASM #96 alternate history-- complete with a living Gwen. All the BND writers-- in total unison-- said we didn't want that and that we were good with the decision as it stood.

    The OMD story needed an ending where it was clearly in the Post-OMD setting. We were asked to come up with two potential love interests who'd be around during BND-- and if they could both be at a party sequence in the final pages. Those characters wound up being Carlie Cooper and Lily Hollister.

    So... My OMD involvement came down 3 things:

    1) Voting in lockstep to NOT alter all of Spider-Man continuity from ASM #96 onward.
    2) Voting in lockstep AGAIN to NOT veto that ruling.
    3) Being one of the co-creators of Carlie Cooper & Lily Hollister-- who showed up at a party at the end of OMD.
    Last edited by Dan Slott; 03-15-2017 at 01:37 PM.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Slott View Post
    Not really. If you work out the timeline, the "It then all carried over to the next summit, at which Ed Brubaker and Dan Slott also had some stuff to add..."-- that was my first Marvel Retreat.

    That was a retreat where Civil War was in full swing, Spider-Man's unmasking in CW had already been decided, and JMS had already run everyone in the room on the concept of OMD in the retreat before. I was brought into my first retreat for 2 reasons:

    1. Two of the core Marvel writers were sick and/or couldn't make it, and there were empty seats at the table. By living in NYC, I was an easy person for Marvel to go to, because they didn't have to fly me in or put me up in a hotel.

    2. They were planning the aftermath of Civil War, Millar had clearly set up the Initiative, but no writer was moving on the idea as a series. Peoples' interests were in other places. I'd heard about the Initiative and ran a pitch for it by some people-- who liked it-- so they thought it would be good to have me in the room to pitch it in person.

    Now keep in mind-- at this point in time, I was the writer on two low-selling titles/cult titles: SHE-HULK and THE THING. I did not have much "coin" to spend in that room. I did throw out some ideas for all kinds of things to help out in the room-- and people liked my Initiative take enough for it to be greenlit in the room as a new book for me-- but the idea that the SHE-HULK/THING guy was going to make any major change to JMS' ASM storyline-- especially one that was on the tracks and that important-- is kinda silly.

    It was after my 2nd retreat, where I'd performed really well (and the Initiative was doing well) that Wacker and the powers that be thought I'd be a good addition to the multi-writer team that would be following JMS. (I'd also conspicuously shoe-horned Spidey into everything I'd been working on-- SHE-HULK, THING, and A:TI for guest issues and multiple cameos. It was very UN-subtle.) And that was something I didn't find out about till after my 2nd retreat.

    Cut to the 1st Spider-Retreat (a min-retreat just for the BND Spider-Writers), that is the first and only time I (and the other writers) had any input into OMD in any meaningful way that stuck. JMS kept switching between TWO versions of OMD:

    1 where the bargain altered time from AMAZING SPIDER-MAN Vol. 1 #96 (the Goblin/Harry drug issues).

    And 2, where the bargain altered time from the WEDDING ANNUAL.

    The first choice was the one JMS felt passionate about. But at one of the retreats, the Powers That Be, editorial, and pretty much everyone in the room (except for Joe Q and one of the writers) voted that version down because it altered too much continuity. There was a common consensus (that Joe Q agreed with too) that as little continuity should be disturbed as possible. That through whatever means ONLY the wedding story itself should be altered, and that practically every story you saw since took place exactly the way it happened in the comics, with the exception that Peter & MJ were living together and not married. JMS wanted an altered continuity that was so drastically different from EVERYTHING that took place in Marvel Publishing since 1971, that Gwen Stacy would still be alive-- had been alive all those years-- and would be up and walking about in the current book Post-OMD.

    I was one-- of practically all the bodies in that room-- who, in that binary choice, voted that version down in favor of the one that would cause the least amount of continuity ripples.

    At the 1st Spidey Retreat, all the BND writers were given the option to veto that. If we wanted, we could give the okay for the ASM #96 alternate history-- complete with a living Gwen. All the BND writers-- in total unison-- said we didn't want that and that we were good with the decision as it stood.

    The OMD story needed an ending where it was clearly in the Post-OMD setting. We were asked to come up with two potential love interests who'd be around during BND-- and if they could both be at a party sequence in the final pages. Those characters wound up being Carlie Cooper and Lily Hollister.

    So... My OMD involvement came down 3 things:

    1) Voting in lockstep to NOT alter all of Spider-Man continuity from ASM #96 onward.
    2) Voting in lockstep AGAIN to NOT veto that ruling.
    3) Being one of the co-creators of Carlie Cooper & Lily Hollister-- who showed up at a party at the end of OMD.
    Interesting, thanks--that clears up the pre-OMD stuff.

    What of OMIT? Am I right in remembering Queseda saying the red pigeon idea was yours?

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    They let Grant Morrison "waltz" in to overhaul the X-Men, similar to Whedon "waltz"-ing for his X-Men take.

    They let Mark Millar "waltz" in and unmask Peter Parker, which led to about a year's worth or more of storylines before it was unmade (messily, by OMD / OMIT the latter of which took years to fully explain how the nuts & bolts of the identity reveal was reversed)

    And was it really an "ungodly hassle" to reverse course on the Peter / MJ marriage? It was done basically over a padded 4-issue arc, and then they just launched into a new continuity.
    Morrison and Whedon didn't do anything to disrupt The X-Men as a franchise. They told stories within the parameters of continuity. And nothing they did was anything that would've caused problems down the line for future writers once they left.

    As others have pointed out, Millar was allowed to unmask Peter knowing that an 'out' would soon be on the way. Unlike with pulling the trigger on the marriage, Peter's unmasking already had a planned out point.

    And it would be an ungodly hassle to have to dismantle the marriage twice. While it was initially undone with just a four issue series, that was only after many, many years and several other previous attempts to undo it. After all that trouble to end it, they would never reinstate it only to immediately realize that, oh wait, they want it gone all over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by duke togo View Post
    Haven't posted about this in a very long time, but all this topic has reminded me of was how much I hated what Marvel did with OMD. The book has pretty much felt like a parallel universe Spider-Man book since then. Still, at the end of the day, could most of the stories told since then be done with a married Spider-Man? Pretty much.
    No, they actually couldn't. But that's a whole other tiresome discussion.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    And it would be an ungodly hassle to have to dismantle the marriage twice. While it was initially undone with just a four issue series, that was only after many, many years and several other previous attempts to undo it. After all that trouble to end it, they would never reinstate it only to immediately realize that, oh wait, they want it gone all over again.
    The previous attempts, and correct me if I'm wrong here, consisted of:

    - the Clone coming back, taking over the mantle of Spider-Man, and Peter Parker giving up the webs and going to Portland with a pregnant Mary Jane
    - Mary Jane apparently being killed in an airplane explosion, after being harassed by a mysterious stalker

    Two whole in-story attempts represent an ungodly hassle? The Mackie / Bryne story was even far more concerned with Captain Power, Chapter One retcons, and Senator Ward as long-running storylines at that time.

    Some writers summits, and some coordination with the outgoing writer and the incoming writing team. An ungodly amount of hassle, with two differing versions, when essentially a magic wand is waved in the story and the marriage is undone?

    It sounded like the decision was already made by Queseda, they just needed a story framework hammered out, the nuts and bolts of which wouldn't have to be explained for over two more years and a hundred issues anyhow.

  14. #254

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    The previous attempts, and correct me if I'm wrong here, consisted of:

    - the Clone coming back, taking over the mantle of Spider-Man, and Peter Parker giving up the webs and going to Portland with a pregnant Mary Jane
    - Mary Jane apparently being killed in an airplane explosion, after being harassed by a mysterious stalker

    Two whole in-story attempts represent an ungodly hassle? The Mackie / Bryne story was even far more concerned with Captain Power, Chapter One retcons, and Senator Ward as long-running storylines at that time.

    Some writers summits, and some coordination with the outgoing writer and the incoming writing team. An ungodly amount of hassle, with two differing versions, when essentially a magic wand is waved in the story and the marriage is undone?

    It sounded like the decision was already made by Queseda, they just needed a story framework hammered out, the nuts and bolts of which wouldn't have to be explained for over two more years and a hundred issues anyhow.
    Keep in mind previous attempts only includes the stories that went to the publishing stage, were built up for months, and went on to dominate the series for several years. They had to wait for the right moment for the Clone Saga, and for the disappearance story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Morrison and Whedon didn't do anything to disrupt The X-Men as a franchise. They told stories within the parameters of continuity. And nothing they did was anything that would've caused problems down the line for future writers once they left.

    As others have pointed out, Millar was allowed to unmask Peter knowing that an 'out' would soon be on the way. Unlike with pulling the trigger on the marriage, Peter's unmasking already had a planned out point.

    And it would be an ungodly hassle to have to dismantle the marriage twice. While it was initially undone with just a four issue series, that was only after many, many years and several other previous attempts to undo it. After all that trouble to end it, they would never reinstate it only to immediately realize that, oh wait, they want it gone all over again.



    No, they actually couldn't. But that's a whole other tiresome discussion.
    Morrison's biggest change was killing off Magneto, and that was reversed in a few months.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    The previous attempts, and correct me if I'm wrong here, consisted of:

    - the Clone coming back, taking over the mantle of Spider-Man, and Peter Parker giving up the webs and going to Portland with a pregnant Mary Jane
    - Mary Jane apparently being killed in an airplane explosion, after being harassed by a mysterious stalker

    Two whole in-story attempts represent an ungodly hassle? The Mackie / Bryne story was even far more concerned with Captain Power, Chapter One retcons, and Senator Ward as long-running storylines at that time.

    Some writers summits, and some coordination with the outgoing writer and the incoming writing team. An ungodly amount of hassle, with two differing versions, when essentially a magic wand is waved in the story and the marriage is undone?

    It sounded like the decision was already made by Queseda, they just needed a story framework hammered out, the nuts and bolts of which wouldn't have to be explained for over two more years and a hundred issues anyhow.
    The clone saga was meant to get back to an unmarried Peter Parker. The fact that it ended up being one of the longest, most convoluted sagas in Spidey history - a storyline that garnered its own notorious reputation - and yet still failed to accomplish its key goal speaks to the ongoing "hassle" that efforts to undo the marriage led to.

    As many creators have attested over the years, the behind-the-scenes discussions as to how to undo the marriage began almost as soon as the marriage happened. OMD was just the storyline where they finally decided to pull the trigger. OMD may just be a four issue story but it was not a simple path to get to it, it was a much more convoluted and involved process than "some writers summits and some coordination with the outgoing writer and the incoming team."

    For Marvel to ever purposely put themselves back in the same position that they spent years trying to extricate themselves from would be plainly ridiculous on their part.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 03-15-2017 at 03:15 PM.

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