Thread Drift: Will One More Day ever be reversed?

[TomSlick]

More like will they ever bring back the $2 bill kind of impossible.

Pretty sure the $2 bill is still being produced, albeit not as often as the other paper currency denominations. Although I get your point.

[boots]

Both, I guess.

I have to imagine someone saw the Devil deal being a problem. But Mephisto is to an extent just another villain in the Marvel Universe. What goes over as an ordinary villain plot in Ghost Rider can be seen as scandalous in Spider-Man.

The Devil is just dangerous territory in general. Even the Lucifer television show has people who are upset that it portrays the Devil as charming and handsome . . . even though that's pretty well in line with how he's described in Christian writing.

yeah, mephisto never bothered me or even struck me as particularly singular in his form of evil over other marvel villains mainly due to the way he's portrayed in the comics. so, i'm not any more concerned that peter struck a deal with him over thanos or hel or whoever. but i'm not everyone.

it'd make more sense to me just in terms of story logic if we saw more of mephisto doing this sort of thing successfully (running around collecting people's marriages in a jar) and testing all the marvel heroes.

[WebLurker]

Spider-Man and Spider-Man's status as a character, brand, and franchise isn't just the purview of an editor, a group editor, a senior editor, or even the EIC. The fan-dream-scenario of someone who was Spider-Man-marriage-friendly secretly slaving away to rise up through the ranks that way and reinstate the marriage is a tad naive. Why?

Because there are VPs, Senior VPs, the CCO, the publisher, the president, the owner, Marvel Entertainment, Disney...

It's too simplistic to think that something like the spider-marriage-- which was initially rushed into happening-- and then was something the Powers That Be tried to undo (unsuccessfully) not that long after-- would EVER happen again (and that includes the act of reinstating it).

So, the moral of the story is too many people to get onboard to sign off on it to make it a remote possibility, esp. since it's a concept that the Powers That Be have historically hated with a vengeance?

To be perfectly candid, I don't get all the rancor for something that seems to have turned out pretty well and remains a facet of one of the franchise's more popular elements, but I think I understand what you're saying now. Thanks.

[Dan Slott]

So, the moral of the story is too many people to get onboard to sign off on it to make it a remote possibility, esp. since it's a concept that the Powers That Be have historically hated with a vengeance?

When you say "hated with a vengeance", that's you reading into it and putting it through your personal filter.
The Powers That Be look after the franchise in ways they feel are best in the long term.

To be perfectly candid, I don't get all the rancor for something that seems to have turned out pretty well and remains a facet of one of the franchise's more popular elements, but I think I understand what you're saying now. Thanks.

It's not "rancor". It's ensuring that the property (in its core ongoing format) will be in its best/most commercial version for each new generation to come.

[Vortex85]

It's not "rancor". It's ensuring that the property (in its core ongoing format) will be in its best/most commercial version for each new generation to come.

It's so weird to me to hear that the version of the character I was introduced to at the age of 9 years old is not the version that future generations should be introduced to because some people in suits think they know what kids like. What was wrong with Spider-Man the way I was introduced to him? Him being married was never a deterrent as a kid. It was actually one of the more aspiring aspects of the book to me. I hear this from so many fans who enjoyed the marriage and became fans during that era, but it's as if adults/powers that be think they know what kids want, but they couldn't be further off.

[boots]

It's so weird to me to hear that the version of the character I was introduced to at the age of 9 years old is not the version that future generations should be introduced to because some people in suits think they know what kids like. What was wrong with Spider-Man the way I was introduced to him? Him being married was never a deterrent as a kid. It was actually one of the more aspiring aspects of the book to me. I hear this from so many fans who enjoyed the marriage and became fans during that era, but it's as if adults/powers that be think they know what kids want, but they couldn't be further off.

it's not just kids characters or spider-man. look around at the majority of long running franchise fictional characters (who start single) and you'll see the same status quo.

i always knew spidey as married too. not being married isn't a deal breaker for me, but we can't weigh the big picture on yours or my personal feels.

[Vortex85]

it's not just kids characters or spider-man. look around at the majority of long running franchise fictional characters (who start single) and you'll see the same status quo.

i always knew spidey as married too. not being married isn't a deal breaker for me, but we can't weigh the big picture on yours or my personal feels.

I guess what I mean is "best/most commercial version" is completely subjective. The most commercial version is whatever you decide to market and brand the character as. Spider-Man could be marketed and branded as a the teenager neird who grew up and got the girl just as easily as he could be marketed as the teenager neird who grew up and is hopelessly out of luck with ever getting the girl. There is no objective better position and it's whatever you decide the brand to be. Somone controls that so whoever does it's just a matter of their personal opinion.

[WebLurker]

When you say "hated with a vengeance", that's you reading into it and putting it through your personal filter.
The Powers That Be look after the franchise in ways they feel are best in the long term.

Okay, poor choice of words on my part.

It's not "rancor". It's ensuring that the property (in its core ongoing format) will be in its best/most commercial version for each new generation to come.

Isn't that highly subjective?

[boots]

I guess what I mean is "best/most commercial version" is completely subjective.

subjective, but not "completely subjective". it's not just an uninformed opinion or a whim or a fancy.

these choices are made with professional knowledge. are they accurate and successful 100% of the time? no, but that's the risk in any market.

The most commercial version is whatever you decide to market and brand the character as. Spider-Man could be marketed and branded as a the teenager neird who grew up and got the girl just as easily as he could be marketed as the teenager neird who grew up and is hopelessly out of luck with ever getting the girl. There is no objective better position and it's whatever you decide the brand to be. Somone controls that so whoever does it's just a matter of their personal opinion.

if that was the case, anyone could be a writer. anyone could be an editor. what's your skillset? my opinion. hired!

why hold creative meetings when you could just roll a dice?

is it just an accident of fate that the majority of western heroic fiction conforms to a similar belief? just a bunch of random opinions that somehow came to the same conclusion? or is there some method to this madness?


that being said, i think a married peter could still work. but that's not really the question. the question is; between the two options...which works better in the long run? which do you choose despite your own personal preferences?

[Vortex85]

subjective, but not "completely subjective". it's not just an uninformed opinion or a whim or a fancy.

these choices are made with professional knowledge. are they accurate and successful 100% of the time? no, but that's the risk in any market.



if that was the case, anyone could be a writer. anyone could be an editor. what's your skillset? my opinion. hired!

why hold creative meetings when you could just roll a dice?

is it just an accident of fate that the majority of western heroic fiction conforms to a similar belief? just a bunch of random opinions that somehow came to the same conclusion? or is there some method to this madness?


that being said, i think a married peter could still work. but that's not really the question. the question is; between the two options...which works better in the long run? which do you choose despite your own personal preferences?

Yes, a married Peter did work, and still could still work. We had a 20 year test to show that it would. If married Spider-Man didn't work in the long run, the marriage would have died out from necessity by a lack of demand from fans LONG before OMD forecably ejected it out of the book. I can't tell you which works better for others, but I know which works better for me. I obviously have to go with the one I prefer. Outiside of that, the only way I know how others feel is the recent polls conducted on this site.... which indicate that after 20 years, the vast majority of voters still want it back in the core book.

[Vortex85]

if that was the case, anyone could be a writer. anyone could be an editor. what's your skillset? my opinion. hired!

why hold creative meetings when you could just roll a dice?

Of course you could market and brand a character in a way that doesn't go over as well commercially, but I don't think that test has ever been conducted with Spider-Man. Marvel have only ever tried to market his youthful days, and they have never given his marriage a fair chance on the mass market despite it working qutie well in the comics. I don't think it's fair to say it wouldn't be commerically valid branding going forward given it's success for 20 years in the book and it's popularity among the fans during that era. I would love to see Marvel try to market and brand Spider-Man as the married hero he was during that era just to see what the result would be with his commercial appeal.

is it just an accident of fate that the majority of western heroic fiction conforms to a similar belief? just a bunch of random opinions that somehow came to the same conclusion? or is there some method to this madness?

Perhaps the majority of western heroic fiction hasn't lived up to it's ultimate potential?

[boots]

Yes, a married Peter did work, and still could still work. We had a 20 year test to show that it would. If married Spider-Man didn't work in the long run, the marriage would have died out from necessity by a lack of demand from fans LONG before OMD forecably ejected it out of the book.

i have a feeling that the metrics used by marvel to judge "working" are very different from any the fans might use.

I can't tell you which works better for others, but I know which works better for me. I obviously have to go with the one I prefer. Outiside of that, the only way I know how others feel is the recent polls conducted on this site.... which indicate that after 20 years, the vast majority of voters still want it back in the core book.

of course, we all have our preferences. but we're outsiders to the process and it's not unfair on ourselves to admit we know less about it than those in the industry.

as for the polls, they indicate the feelings of those cbr spider-man board members who chose to participate. it's not a statistically reliable poll, just a bit of fun.

[boots]

Of course you could market and brand a character in a way that doesn't go over as well commercially, but I don't think that test has ever been conducted with Spider-Man. Marvel have only ever tried to market his youthful days, and they have never given his marriage a fair chance on the mass market despite it working qutie well in the comics. I don't think it's fair to say it wouldn't be commerically valid branding going forward given it's success for 20 years in the book and it's popularity among the fans during that era. I would love to see Marvel try to market and brand Spider-Man as the married hero he was during that era just to see what the result would be with his commercial appeal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_assessment

i'm all for taking risks but why try when the accepted industry wisdom/ formula is accepted as working well? what is to be gained for them and for the property? you want it. and you want it badly. but i don't know why that would be a convincing motivation for marvel or any other publisher/studio/record company.

that's the issue when something is a behemoth on the scale of spider-man as opposed to say, sin city.

Perhaps the majority of western heroic fiction hasn't lived up to it's ultimate potential?

because they're not marrying sherlock holmes and doctor who? i dunno, i probably measure "ultimate potential" in other ways. and the continued and growing success of those settings, stories and characters would seem to indicate that they aren't hurting their potential at least.

but that's franchise fiction- wrestling with formula and status quo over decades and new audiences and changes in culture.

[Vortex85]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_assessment

i'm all for taking risks but why try when the accepted industry wisdom/ formula is accepted as working well? what is to be gained for them and for the property? you want it. and you want it badly. but i don't know why that would be a convincing motivation for marvel or any other publisher/studio/record company.

that's the issue when something is a behemoth on the scale of spider-man as opposed to say, sin city.



because they're not marrying sherlock holmes and doctor who? i dunno, i probably measure "ultimate potential" in other ways. and the continued and growing success of those settings, stories and characters would seem to indicate that they aren't hurting their potential at least.

but that's franchise fiction- wrestling with formula and status quo over decades and new audiences and changes in culture.

More on this "majority of western heroic fiction" and "ultimate potential" stuff.

I don't think it's fair of me to say the majority of western heroic fiction misses the mark in any way. Every property is unique and you have to take it on a case by case basis. Just because Spider-Man is a western heroic fiction doesn't mean it has to go along with the majority. A lot of heroic fictional characters may work better single because they didn't have the right characters to make a transition to a marriage become a more favorable option with it's fanbase.

Spider-Man really "hit the jackpot" with Mary Jane though and the fact that fans loved the union of these characters so much makes it seem like a big waist to squander that legacy just to conform back into the norm wit the rest of wester herioc fiction. The chemistry these particular characters have shared, their history, and it's impact to fans is a rare and beautiful thing and only happens a few times among the huge masses of properites out there.

It's a shame to see that go to waist because someone wants to play it safe and stick to with the standard formula.

[boots]

More on this "majority of western heroic fiction" and "ultimate potential" stuff.

I don't think it's fair of me to say the majority of western heroic fiction misses the mark in any way. Every property is unique and you have to take it on a case by case basis. Just because Spider-Man is a western heroic fiction doesn't mean it has to go along with the majority. A lot of heroic fictional characters may work better single because they didn't have the right characters to make a transition to a marriage become a more favorable option with it's fanbase.

fair enough mate.

i agree with a lot of the reasons floated on this board for an umarried peter parker, but there's no need to beat that dead horse again here.

Spider-Man really "hit the jackpot" with Mary Jane though and the fact that fans loved the union of these characters so much makes it seem like a big waist to squander that legacy just to conform back into the norm wit the rest of wester herioc fiction.

it's not "we must conform". i don't think marvel was sitting there worried about what all the other heroic fiction franchises were saying behind their backs. it's more about "this works. this puts us in the best position for our goals". best, not the only; best. the fact that we see it repeated over and over again in a lot of cases isn't the need to be a hive-mind, it's that (so far) it seems to work best.