Thread Drift: Will One More Day ever be reversed?

[Dan Slott]

Hypothetical: if there was reason to believe bringing back the marriage would increase publishing revenue by 40%, why would Marvel not do it? If, you know, it's all about business?

See my previous post. Or don't. Whatever.

And there's loads of 'Spinneret' cosplay out there as well. What's yours?

If you think that even comes close to Spider-Gwen cosplay...

An EIC ordered it to happen (Shooter) and an EIC ordered it reversed (Queseda). So why exactly couldn't an EIC order it done again?

This is like trying to explain color to a blind man.
If you think that's all there was to it-- or how it happened-- or WHY-- we'll be here all night.
There is more here than you're seeing or getting.
And it all goes to the same inevitable end:
The marriage is NEVER getting reinstated. It's never happening.

And how does Parker Industries fit into the "brand management"?

Now THAT'S something you can put in your time capsule. We'll discuss that one later.

[theoneandonly]

is a married spider man that harmful to the brand or is having omd revoked going to be a bad example of brand management indicating Marvel are unable to make up their mind whether to kept Spidey single or married and will keep flip flopping whenever it suits them? if so then definitely there will have to be some wide scale universal demand for OMD to be revoked or marvel and spider man will perish for them to once again revolutinalize the character and corporates are more prone towards resistance to change if the status quo is shown to work in past and moreover is giving higher dividends and profits for the brand so guess no let there be no mephisto spell from SW but one should keep in mind that even DC had to radically change its flagship characters martial status from single to its complicated to appease older fans of the superman/Lois pairing. Of course marvel is more resistant to DC in term of changing their characters radically but it seems no longer to hold true with many of them going through unprecedented changes like Thor and hydra cap.

[AmazingFantasy]

I can think of at least 3 specific things we could do in the book tomorrow (NOT MJ or marriage related) that would cause a boost in sales-- and that we WON'T do. (And, no, I won't tell you what those are.)

Because there are battles you fight and there are wars you win.

There are elements of this job which are about brand management. I could go into how and why this works, but I'm not going to.
There are factors at work here that are not taken into consideration by fans.
There are things fans don't even add into their "math" when they think about outcomes that they'd like (like, in this case, reinstating the marriage).
Yes, everyone who works in comics IS a fan. No one falls into the job of writer or editor or editor-in-chief by accident.
Everyone who works in comics does this because we dearly love it.
But there are aspects to this job where if you approach it PURELY as a fan and DON'T take those factors into account-- you will NOT survive. You will NOT get certain assignments. You will NOT reach certain levels or positions. You will NOT get to affect the changes you would like. And because of that, there are some changes/choices/concepts that WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Not oh-maybe-someday-the-right-person-will-end-up-in-the-right-place-and-THEN-it'll-happen! NO. NEVER. Again, it's about fighting battles vs. winning wars.

Some days I wish the MJ-marriage-fans could understand the amount of water I had to carry-- and the political mine fields I had to dance through-- to GET Renew Your Vows to happen. THAT was a longshot. And THAT was in an alternate reality. You are NEVER getting that close again. (And, BTW, you're welcome.)

Thats is all very interesting, I enjoy reading about this 'behind-the-scenes' stuff, thank you for the info.
And also I do genuinely thank you for making RYV happen, especially with all the trouble you just mentioned.

[Vworp Vworp]

Some days I wish the MJ-marriage-fans could understand the amount of water I had to carry-- and the political mine fields I had to dance through-- to GET Renew Your Vows to happen.

To be honest, I might have found it easier to understand that, if your statement wasn't immediately following three previous posts essentially proclaiming that the thing a lot of people still want WILL ABSOLUTELY NEVER HAPPEN. Don't get me wrong, I understand the latter statement is the very reason for all your carrying and dancing. I'm just puzzled why you're so keen to put people in the 'know' about what can't ever possibly happen ever.

Sure, if you don't think the real timeline being restored will ever happen, that's cool. If you're absolutely 100% convinced it'll never happen, also cool. But those last three posts? Well, they came across as a tat... I'm gonna go with vigorous. I mean, at the end of the day, if it really is a done deal (no pun intended), then why do you feel the need to make sure that everyone else "knows" it? On the basis that you're completely correct, Wibbly-Wobbly Timey-Wimey Peter will continue in ASM with you at the helm and things will carry on just as they have done since OMD.

But in the meantime, is it really so wrong for people to have a little hope about something? Even if that hope is false (as far as you're concerned)?

[Pav]

Is it wrong for people to hope? Probably not.

Is it wrong for the same posters to continually complain about the same thing to the detriment of others' pleasant conversation? Maaaaaybe.

-Pav, who started reading with the marriage too...

[boots]

i'm a little confused as to what people want from dan or a marvel employee. as an insider, he has knowledge of the policy in place and it seems that it has been cemented that peter being married is a no no. if there is a marvel equivalent of a series bible i imagine this is written in stone within that document. and there's a list of other "no gos" along with it. it's the same in tv. there are just certain things that will never happen no matter how much a creator wants it to and no amount of ladder climbing or fighting will make it so. i've been privy to a lot of that stuff and seen people walk over it, but more often compromise.

i think this buys into the myth that an individual (fan or otherwise) can change a system single handedly, when in every other irl situation (business, politics, etc) we see that is not the case again and again.

my confusion is what do people want dan or marvel to say? "yes, there's a chance" despite their solid understanding there isn't? to give some hope where there isn't any? it seems to me that people are asking the same question in different ways to try to get the answer they're after.

i imagine this is probably a touch frustrating for dan, who probably had to jump through a lot of hoops to get ryv off the ground in the first place. other than peter and mj getting together outside of matrimony in 616, this is probably the best he and others at marvel could manage.

to be fair though, i can somewhat understand from the reader point of view. at one point in marvel's history, ben reilly and clones were "off limits" and attempts were made to wipe any evidence from the face of the comics. it does seem that the current crop of marvel employees have a soft spot for those stories and changed the climate. what i think the mistake might be is to assume that everything is equal. marriage = ben reilly = uncle ben = bucky = jason todd. there are most likely different degrees of limitations on a case by case basis. it seems that marriage for peter (to any character) is on the far end of that scale.

[Inversed]

In my opinion, I just want some well told stories. I can understand why people would be upset, but as long as we keep getting well written or enjoyable stories, then I'm alright. And I have liked this whole era of books and I'm very interested to see what new stuff they can do with the characters.

And the thing is, it's been 10 years, if they were to undo it now that would probably be the largest step back for the book that has constantly been trying to go forward in the past few years. At least that's how I personally see it.

[DVGamer7]

Spider is still married. They are swingers, they are in an open relationship.

Dunno about your Marvel Universe, but that's mine.

[Tuck]

Donald Trump is President and the Cubs won the World Series.

The third thing that was never going to happen is either going to be the return of the Spider marriage or Earth's gravity shutting off.

[The Negative Zone]

I can see Peter and MJ getting married again, not a OMD reversal. (Also the marriage would be broken up again eventually because comics.)

However, honestly the whole bring back the marriage movement has gotten old. Its been 10 years and you have Renew Your Vows. Its a tired issue that's been debated many times.

[WebLurker]

No. There are a LOT of assumptions in there that are unfounded and unrealistic.
You're assuming that there are "no writers now who either prefer the pre-OMD setup or want to write in that vein."
There are.
It's not happening.
Ever.
It's never, ever going to happen.
There is more going on then just people willing or wanting to write for that set up.
There is no person, no matter how passionately they cared about the pre-OMD setup who could ever make it through all the steps and paces to get to a position of editorial power AND be given the reins of the Spider-Unit who would EVER be allowed to put this back into play.
There is no lottery ticket BIG enough that anyone could win it, buy Marvel, and make this status quo happen.
It's NEVER, EVER, EVER coming about.
No matter how much you want it.
It ain't happening.
There is NO possible path to this.

Okay, I'm lost here. Someone (or a committee) had to sign off on OMD for it to happen. Some person(s) is/are in charge of authorizing stuff like this. Am I correct on this?
If so, my point, boiled down, is that eventually, said persons will eventually retire. Who's to say if their successors will choose to keep all the decisions of their predecessors intact or will have their own ideas that will supplant them? I'm not saying that it's a given they would decide OMD should go (that Hulk should be bald, or that Marvel needs a superhero team of living food, whatever have you).

When reading your response, the answer I think I'm getting is: "The people who have the power to make this decision cannot use that power even if they wanted to in this case," which doesn't make any sense from where I'm standing. A little more clarification on they way would help use laypersons understand what you mean: Is it not going to happen because the Powers That Be have set up some legal red tape forbidding the decision from being counteracted, too many people would need to be onboard to make such a change, so it's highly unlikely, etc.? (And beyond the question of how it applies in this case, I would be curious to hear about the process of making decisions like this, given that I have very little idea of how the process works beyond: creators create and they need to follow whatever guidelines their bosses have.)

That is a gross over-simplification of what happened.

Fair enough; it's was a post by a layperson trying to make sense of something, not a researched thesis.

And it ignores the countless previous attempts to undo the marriage status quo.
It wasn't some magic concurrence of "THESE GUYS" want to undo it.
EVERYONE in power was working on how to undo it NOT THAT LONG INTO THE MARRIAGE.
The undoing was going to happen. It was just a matter of when.
Now that it HAS happened, it AIN'T unhappening.

None of the previous attempts took and were not well received (which is neither here nor there, but I find it interesting how the producers of the product can be in disagreement with the consumers). But this raises the question: if they were so adamant about doing it, why did they need to wait 20 years to pull the trigger and put their foot down? If they wanted it so bad, why back off before? (Also, talk about being resentful of your own success. Sounds a bit like Conan Doyle and Sherlock Holmes.)

Not really. Because your premise of why-and-how it happened isn't accurate, and the obstacles against the inverse happening are-- when you understand the larger forces at work here-- are INSURMOUNTABLE.

Yeah?

As noted before, you haven't really given any clear explanation about said forces, so unless any further explanation is forthcoming, all I can say is that I can't comprehend your reasoning as is, making it impossible for me to understand why you're right and I'm wrong.

The "616" comics have to fulfill a purpose/function that NONE OF THE OTHER FRANCHISES do.

What's that? (A very stupid question, I'm sure but I don't mind asking them for a clear answer.)

Your line of arguing does not hold.

So, it's not true that the movies are the more influential parts of the Marvel franchises and that the creators of those are using Ultimate comics more that 616 for influence? The gist of what I was thinking is that these characters have become bigger than their source materials, unlike how Star Wars is still primarily a film franchise despite putting their fingers into every pie imaginable.

A small and stubborn section of the fanbase.

Maybe. I'm just one guy giving my opinions. I'm not part of any fan clubs or making any polls or something like that, so all I can go off of is what I find when poking around the web, where the loudest may not be the majority.

But, may I ask this? If this faction of the fanbase is so small, why do we get our chains yanked every so often, why was the RYV miniseries marketing targeted exclusively this demographic, why did the original sell as well as it did, and why is Marvel producing a followup series, if the built-in target audience is so small? All the other small minorities who are in similar positions in franchises (like the Bring Back Legends people for Star Wars) aren't given nearly as much attention, despite being more vocal. I don't know if any of that makes sense, but there it is.

Yet that didn't stop the current version from being the highest regular selling Marvel super hero comic.
It didn't stop the book from having some of the highest selling comic issues of this century.

The smart-mouthed part of me would want to say that the brand loyalty is a powerful thing, that I'm sure the franchise can survive a lot of damage, and that sales numbers are not a good indicator of quality of the final product, otherwise the '90s would've been the height of the comic book as an art form. However, I'm not an expert or an economist, so I'm not really qualified to say how accurate such assessments would be (probably not).

But, I guess, I would wonder this; of the Spider-Man fanbase as a whole; how many of them actually read the comics? And of the ones who do, how many of them follow ASM and the sub-series? Not to mention the question of if the comics are succeeding because of OMD's retcon or in spite of? I'm not qualified to answer those questions myself (although I do know that I haven't heard an argument I find convincing yet).

There's a paradox in this last quote.

On a second read, yeah, you're right. I think what I was trying to get at was I'm a little surprised that the RYV did as well as it did if the fans that prefer that status quo are such a small demographic. Not sure if I'm explaining myself very well, but something just doesn't seem to add up here, even if I'm not really sure what it is.

And that's completely fair to feel that way. That's cool.

To be totally honest, it sure as heck doesn't feel like it. While I think things are better at the moment, I've personally felt pretty disenfranchised as a fan for some time now. I can call quite a few times that Marvel seemed to imply that an OMD reversal could be happening and then pulled the rug out (which I don't appreciate, by the way; not sure how it looks to you, but it feels like the knife's being twisted to me). I'm not privy to everything going on at Marvel central, to be sure, but I don't feel welcome.

To keep with the Firefly motif, whenever I hear anything about how OMD is here to stay and/or needed to make the comics great again, I think of a line from the Serenity movie: "So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?" You guys at Marvel control the output of new stories. OMD felt like something was being foisted on us, since there was no alternative provided (there is now, but I gather that the Powers That Be don't exactly want one).

(continued next post)

[WebLurker]

All I'm saying is, there are forces at work and concerns far greater than "if a writer wanted to do this" and even "if an editor wanted to do this".

So, who (or whom) does make decisions like this?

And, on a Darwinian level, there is no way anyone will ever get through the system to become someone in power who would implement a reinstating of the marriage.
It just ain't happening.

To be totally honest, I'm personally not holding my breath for an OMD reversal to happen, and even if it did, I don't think I trust it to be anything other than a bait-and-switch at this point (I've had my chain yanked too many times with red herrings, as I alluded to before). I think that the RYV ongoing existing as it's own thing is the best deal for everyone involved, given that it gives nearly everyone an outlet for their preferences.

And in all seriousness, I do thank you and Marvel for making that RYV series in the first place and continuing it with a regular comic; it's exactly the thing I've been wanting to see made for some time now. I would be very curious about the approval process and the behind-the-scenes making of getting the follow-up off the ground, if it was as hard as it apparently was (I find making-of stuff interesting when it comes to fiction).

Look, there's a reason I've been using Firefly as an analogy; it kind of fits how I go about myself in the Spider-Man fanbase. I'm not really interesting in re-starting the war or aiming to misbehave (getting OMD revoked, despite how great that would be); all I want to keep flyin' on a ship (having parts of the franchise that suit me, eps. new stuff) and live free from the influence of the Alliance (OMD, material based on it, and the acolytes that keep it going). Right now, RYV allows me to do that. But, given how precarious that is, and the fact that Marvel making OMD the only kind of Spider-Man story allowed in general, it's getting pretty crowded in my sky. Maybe the franchise has moved beyond me now. I don't know. All I can say is that I don't like it. And the truly ironic thing? I've never followed the 616 comics. I came through the movies and Ultimate stuff and that was later in life and after OMD happened (if I recall correctly). So, even though I feel I came to my conclusions honestly, I shouldn't even be on the side I am!

But, getting back to the original point, I guess I'm not clear why it would never happen at any point in the future, given that the history of comics seems to show that creative changes, reversals, etc. are part and parcel to the genre. I'm sure you know better than me, but without any context as to the why, I don't get it. (I also don't get why the frak the marriage was so bad in the first place? Why the people at Marvel are so obsessed with keeping the lid on it and all that?)

This got a bit long (understatement, I know). Call it a wordy "I don't understand," call it a confession of a fan who feels like Marvel and him are in a zero sum game on this subject, whatever. At the end of the day, whatever the comics do, it won't be anything I have any say or control over. That's up to you and your ilk. All I can do is look you guys in the eye, and, like Sharon Carter, say: "No, you move!" Probably won't do any good, but's all I've got (excusing the RYV series, which will hopefully last some time and won't be the last of its kind). I've seen what the alternative in this franchise is with OMD Spider-Man and it has nothing I want; There's only one place I can stand and I'm with it to the end of the line.

[boots]

Yeah?

As noted before, you haven't really given any clear explanation about said forces, so unless any further explanation is forthcoming, all I can say is that I can't comprehend your reasoning as is, making it impossible for me to understand why you're right and I'm wrong.

you're right, it does make it hard but do readers have a right to know? not really. this isn't like the government where transparency is key to people's rights.

companies hardly ever air the inner workings. it can be dangerous for employees to do so on the internet especially; even if that employee takes great lengths to be as concise and fair in what they say...someone somewhere will take a quote out of context or paraphrase them or twist something and then you're dealing with a new mud slinging internet rumour. one that can be traced back to an actual employee's words. there's been a few cases like this especially in frachise IP where authors or creatives have been reprimanded for saying too much.

it's not really their place to show us what happens behind the curtain. it's cool when they do, and i love it. but i understand there are limits to what they can say. especially when those involve other employees/employers; its a bit much to speak on their behalf. making us "understand" the direction that a global company has decided to take a character is not in their job description and is certainly not owed to us.

[Miles To Go]

And the thing is, it's been 10 years, if they were to undo it now that would probably be the largest step back for the book that has constantly been trying to go forward in the past few years.

Potentially that could very well happen anyway with the recent teasing of Parker Industries' collapse. I trust Marvel will have some means of giving the possible back-to-basics approach a fresh twist, but I imagine there may be some fans of the premise who would like P.I to stick around a little longer.

Marriage isn't necessarily a 'step back' for the character, but I understand the concerns about bringing it back like it never left, as that could unravel a decade's worth of stories for an entirely fresh generation of readers, not just for us old farts who hung around. It's not fair to that generation, or the creative teams that have entertained them. Making a lie out of your investment is not on.

[Prof. Warren]

Okay, I'm lost here. Someone (or a committee) had to sign off on OMD for it to happen. Some person(s) is/are in charge of authorizing stuff like this. Am I correct on this?
If so, my point, boiled down, is that eventually, said persons will eventually retire. Who's to say if their successors will choose to keep all the decisions of their predecessors intact or will have their own ideas that will supplant them? I'm not saying that it's a given they would decide OMD should go (that Hulk should be bald, or that Marvel needs a superhero team of living food, whatever have you).

When reading your response, the answer I think I'm getting is: "The people who have the power to make this decision cannot use that power even if they wanted to in this case," which doesn't make any sense from where I'm standing. A little more clarification on they way would help use laypersons understand what you mean: Is it not going to happen because the Powers That Be have set up some legal red tape forbidding the decision from being counteracted, too many people would need to be onboard to make such a change, so it's highly unlikely, etc.? (And beyond the question of how it applies in this case, I would be curious to hear about the process of making decisions like this, given that I have very little idea of how the process works beyond: creators create and they need to follow whatever guidelines their bosses have.)

None of the previous attempts took and were not well received (which is neither here nor there, but I find it interesting how the producers of the product can be in disagreement with the consumers). But this raises the question: if they were so adamant about doing it, why did they need to wait 20 years to pull the trigger and put their foot down? If they wanted it so bad, why back off before? (Also, talk about being resentful of your own success. Sounds a bit like Conan Doyle and Sherlock Holmes.)

The marriage always should have had a back door built into it. The fact that they didn't was one of the biggest editorial blunders Marvel ever made.

Even the makers of the '90s Spidey cartoon knew this when they "married" Peter and MJ only to eventually reveal that it had never been the real MJ but an unstable clone. They had the excitement of having these two characters tie the knot but had an exit planned that wouldn't leave Peter as either a divorcé or a widower.

Almost as soon as the wedding occurred in the comics, writers were trying to find ways to undo it. The clone sage itself was an effort to undo the marriage. Reveal that the Peter who had married MJ was never the "real" Peter to begin with - that way Peter could ride off into the sunset with MJ while Ben Reilly, the "real" Peter Parker could take over, free of the baggage of the marriage. But fan outrage over the idea that the Peter they'd been reading since the mid-'70s was bogus caused those plans to be abandoned. But the idea of jettisoning the marriage never left and it was just that OMD was the moment where everything finally aligned to make it happen. Let's not get into yet another discussion of the merits of that storyline but that's when Marvel finally went for it without turning back.

Now, given the enormous difficulty it took to undo the marriage there's no way they'd ever step back into that situation. Undoing the marriage was a move taken to preserve the brand. The Powers That Be believe that having Peter be single is an essential element of the character. Part of managing an intellectual property means having agreement on a corporate level on certain aspects of that property. That means, no matter how many times Spider-Man might change creative hands in the future, re-instating the marriage is a bridge that will never be crossed. Marvel is never going to shoot themselves in the foot twice on this. They just aren't.

When someone on the inside of Marvel tells you emphatically that the marriage isn't coming back, it's probably good to come to terms with that reality.

If your response to being told in the plainest, most direct of terms that the marriage is done is "Well, you never know..." or "Never say never..." or "But maybe there's a chance..." then I think you're setting yourself up for a lifetime of disappointment.