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  1. #46

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    Some people who didn't like Marvel's decision to get rid of the marriage seem to think it only happened because Joe Quesada didn't like the marriage, neglecting two more important factors (there are clearly articulated reasons for preferring Spider-Man in the comics to be single, many others in the industry have pushed for it.) This misunderstanding can lead to a belief that change is likelier than the reality.

    For a reversal to happen, someone in a position of power pushing for it will have to articulate their reasons for preferring the new status quo (I'm not denying the existence of such reasons) and persuade a lot of others that it's a better course of action than the alternative.

    Since he's worked at Marvel for over a decade, Slott probably has a good sense of the ratio of people in positions of influence who prefer Spider-Man to be single, and why a reversal won't happen.

    Maybe he's a bit wrong to express absolute certainty, but if the odds are pretty low he'll be closer to the truth than someone who thinks it's a 50/50 situation.

    It seems to me that the main circumstance under which the marriage might be restored is if Marvel were planning to bring an end to the classic Marvel Universe, given all the ways the world has changed since those foundational Silver Age comics. The likeliest outcome would be a new version of Peter Parker, who probably won't be married.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    you're right, it does make it hard but do readers have a right to know? not really. this isn't like the government where transparency is key to people's rights.

    companies hardly ever air the inner workings. it can be dangerous for employees to do so on the internet especially; even if that employee takes great lengths to be as concise and fair in what they say...someone somewhere will take a quote out of context or paraphrase them or twist something and then you're dealing with a new mud slinging internet rumour. one that can be traced back to an actual employee's words. there's been a few cases like this especially in frachise IP where authors or creatives have been reprimanded for saying too much.

    it's not really their place to show us what happens behind the curtain. it's cool when they do, and i love it. but i understand there are limits to what they can say. especially when those involve other employees/employers; its a bit much to speak on their behalf. making us "understand" the direction that a global company has decided to take a character is not in their job description and is certainly not owed to us.
    Fair enough. If Slott can't or doesn't want to elaborate further, that's his right. If he wants to leave it at a "trust me, I'm right," okay. I'm not not sure what to do with that, but, since my opinion on what Marvel should or should not do in the future isn't going to really affect anything, it's probably not that important in the grand scheme of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    The marriage always should have had a back door built into it. The fact that they didn't was one of the biggest editorial blunders Marvel ever made.

    Even the makers of the '90s Spidey cartoon knew this when they "married" Peter and MJ only to eventually reveal that it had never been the real MJ but an unstable clone. They had the excitement of having these two characters tie the knot but had an exit planned that wouldn't leave Peter as either a divorcé or a widower.

    Almost as soon as the wedding occurred in the comics, writers were trying to find ways to undo it. The clone sage itself was an effort to undo the marriage. Reveal that the Peter who had married MJ was never the "real" Peter to begin with - that way Peter could ride off into the sunset with MJ while Ben Reilly, the "real" Peter Parker could take over, free of the baggage of the marriage. But fan outrage over the idea that the Peter they'd been reading since the mid-'70s was bogus caused those plans to be abandoned. But the idea of jettisoning the marriage never left and it was just that OMD was the moment where everything finally aligned to make it happen. Let's not get into yet another discussion of the merits of that storyline but that's when Marvel finally went for it without turning back.

    Now, given the enormous difficulty it took to undo the marriage there's no way they'd ever step back into that situation. Undoing the marriage was a move taken to preserve the brand. The Powers That Be believe that having Peter be single is an essential element of the character. Part of managing an intellectual property means having agreement on a corporate level on certain aspects of that property. That means, no matter how many times Spider-Man might change creative hands in the future, re-instating the marriage is a bridge that will never be crossed. Marvel is never going to shoot themselves in the foot twice on this. They just aren't.

    When someone on the inside of Marvel tells you emphatically that the marriage isn't coming back, it's probably good to come to terms with that reality.

    If your response to being told in the plainest, most direct of terms that the marriage is done is "Well, you never know..." or "Never say never..." or "But maybe there's a chance..." then I think you're setting yourself up for a lifetime of disappointment.
    Like I said before, I'm reminded of Conan Doyle's view of Sherlock Holmes, and remain unconvinced of the necessity of it all, but I'm just one of their paying customers; what do I know, eh?

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    If your response to being told in the plainest, most direct of terms that the marriage is done is "Well, you never know..." or "Never say never..."
    It's funny you should mention this, someone at Emerald Comic Con last weekend reportedly revealed Joe Kelly said something to this extent when pressed by the afore-mentioned fan about those Mephisto callbacks in Spidey/Deadpool.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 03-11-2017 at 09:13 AM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Potentially that could very well happen anyway with the recent teasing of Parker Industries' collapse. I trust Marvel will have some means of giving the possible back-to-basics approach a fresh twist, but I imagine there may be some fans of the premise who would like P.I to stick around a little longer.

    Marriage isn't necessarily a 'step back' for the character, but I understand the concerns about bringing it back like it never left, as that could unravel a decade's worth of stories for an entirely fresh generation of readers, not just for us old farts who hung around. It's not fair to that generation, or the creative teams that have entertained them. Making a lie out of your investment is not on.
    Given that there's the new "Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man" book that's supposed to be the more street-level back-to-basics approach, it wouldn't make sense for the Amazing Spider-Man book to also do that, at least right now. Seems like this is the perfect compromise to show the both sides of Spider-Man, and I would imagine Slott has more control over the Spider-Man book than most other writers do, so it will probably end when he decides it's time.

    And if Peter & MJ do get back together/marry again sometime, I wouldn't consider that a step back, that's perfectly fine since it's still moving forward. It's not completely undoing the 10 years of stories just to have them together again.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Sonic The Hedgehog, Absolute Carnage, Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man, Gwenpool Strikes Back, Runaways, The White Trees

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    And if Peter & MJ do get back together/marry again sometime, I wouldn't consider that a step back, that's perfectly fine since it's still moving forward. It's not completely undoing the 10 years of stories just to have them together again.
    Agreed. I think the best we can take out of this is that nobody is necessarily ruling out Peter and MJ getting back together despite all that's happened to them presently, all we're getting is the guarantee they won't marry outside of alternate realities. I think the marriage has always been better off in those realities.

    But then, how many iconic Marvel couples have gotten back together since breaking up anyway? Marvel tend not to dip their feet in the same lake twice with a lot of fan favorite parings that could benefit from a revival in the here and now.

    Bringing Peter and MJ back together is one possibility, but why not Matt and Electra? Why not Wanda and Vision? Why not Crystal and Johnny? Peter and MJ may be the highest-profile example of Marvel sitting on making easy money from a relationship resurgence, but they're certainly not the only example.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 03-11-2017 at 10:14 AM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Like I said before, I'm reminded of Conan Doyle's view of Sherlock Holmes, and remain unconvinced of the necessity of it all, but I'm just one of their paying customers; what do I know, eh?
    You know what you like and that's all you need to know. No one's saying that it's not ok to have your own preferences. If you like Peter to be married and that's the era that you prefer, fine. Nothing wrong with that. If you never buy another current Spidey book, that's ok. Marvel can't please everyone. Marvel has plenty of other paying customers who don't like or simply don't care about the marriage. The fact that some fans will never let go of their love of the Peter/MJ marriage is fine. There's no law saying that you have to learn to like the current status quo. But that also doesn't mean that it would be wise of Marvel to cater to that relatively small group of readers at the expense of the long term good of the character.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    You know what you like and that's all you need to know. No one's saying that it's not ok to have your own preferences. If you like Peter to be married and that's the era that you prefer, fine. Nothing wrong with that. If you never buy another current Spidey book, that's ok. Marvel can't please everyone. Marvel has plenty of other paying customers who don't like or simply don't care about the marriage. The fact that some fans will never let go of their love of the Peter/MJ marriage is fine. There's no law saying that you have to learn to like the current status quo. But that also doesn't mean that it would be wise of Marvel to cater to that relatively small group of readers at the expense of the long term good of the character.
    To be totally honest, I've never understood how it was best for the long term interest of the character, but I'm idiosyncratic like that and hardly objective.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    To be totally honest, I've never understood how it was best for the long term interest of the character, but I'm idiosyncratic like that and hardly objective.
    And really, if the current MCU incarnation is a high-school age Peter Parker, and Slott claims they have no intention of reverting comic book-Peter back into that, what does it really matter if he's married in the comics or not? It's not like there's visible pressure to conform the comics or "brand" to all the rest of the media, if the current crop of Marvel comics is any indication.

    It's because a handful of current writer or editor types simply don't "want" to write him as such. (Unless there's some kind of clause Disney inserted when they bought Marvel that Slott can't publicly talk about--though he's already shown to be less than truthful about stuff all the time anyway, so why believe him?). Of course, the current PTB also think he works best portrayed as 15 years old mentally, in the body of a 20-something. So that kinda shows you where they're coming from.

  9. #54

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    My thoughts are that it was always known that the higher ups didn't care for the marriage since it's first printings. The marriage was only created because Stan Lee himself willed it so because fans loved Peter and Mary Jane together. At the time, it was seen as preposterous for a hero to marry, something like a comicbook taboo, but as per usual, Spider-Man saw fit to destroy another common comicbook trope.

    Though many fans enjoyed the marriage, it was really the Marvel Comics themselves who didn't like it. Some writers didn't know how to write married relationships and others thought it would be a ball and chain for Peter's life. Some didn't even like him with MJ to begin with, and thus many alterations began to emerge from this.

    During the time of the 90s, thanks to poor decisions by the comic book industry, Marvel went bankrupt wich caused a complete change of powers. A decision was made that the suits got to make more decisions as to how things ran...and thus this is how Clone saga became a horrid mess. With these changes caused more discussion as to what to do, and thus the higherups commenced a story that would 'Kill Mary Jane'

    Most of you can recall in the late 90s MJ apparently died in a plane crash. Immediately and without a moment to breathe, a romance was attempted to be pushed onto Peter in the next issue. Some issues and time later, it is revealed that MJ was not killed in a plane crash at all but was kidnapped by a stalker and stuck in his basement. This kind of thing seemed more like the higher ups wanted to try and get rid of Mary Jane, only to have the whole thing blow up in their faces and thus having to bring her back in a way that is as bizzare as the genetic actress with Aunt May (which was also a last minute change thanks to the editors changing their mind about the baby).

    Higher ups try and try again to get rid of the romance, but lost a ton of readership after Clone Saga. Thanks to a growing readership from Spider-Man becoming an Avenger, they attempted to remove the whole thing in OMD which slashed their readership immensely. They had to start producing several Spider-Man issues every month and create BND to try and get their numbers back up. Still, most of the stuff that took place afterwards was known as lackluster and not comparable to older stories. The only time they managed to grow readership was when they began this IMMENSE EVENTS.

    Superior Spider-Man, Spider-Island, Spider-Verse, every single one was back to back with only a few issues inbetween. The only way to keep readers on the book now was to create massive events with ground shaking moves, but every backflip preformed, the next event had to up the stakes. They had to kill characters off, they went for shock value, they made things dark, and Slott is good at making these twists and turns but only for a moment. You notice with every event and every change created, the writing is weakening. Too much left undone, not enough detail or development. Like the Marvel Universe Events, Spider-Man events are now becoming boring and Spider-Man has just become a one trick pony...but this is all they can do now. Shock value is the only thing that will keep readers here.

    But as DC's rebirth has won over more readership and Marvel constantly doing events, Marvel Comics consumerbase is waining and are going to DC. Marvel has reverted back to the old superhero tropes for every character they do. No marriages, no children, no long term relationships. Jessica Jones child has gone missing and Spider Woman is about to be cancelled. Classic marriages within the Marvel universe have been split apart and iconic romances have vanished into thin air.

    Meanwhile, DC grabs the readers in with granting these sort of relationships. Superman has become immensley popular thanks to bringing back the classic Lois and Clark romance and even giving the power couple a child. Batman has always had kids and continues to round them up into his family. Wally's marriage may be gone but he is restoring it slowly as he has found his true love again. Before, Green Arrow and Black Canary were not allowed to be together in their comics, but casting aside the new 52, the romance is rekindling. And let us not forget that Aquaman's wedding is around the corner.

    These large changes within DC have granted them large readership and a more loyal fanbase. This a change in the company and in the right direction that welcomes new and old readers alike without much tension.

    There actually is a large popularity for kids in hero comics presently. Something about the super family dynamic seems to strike many people's fancy along with it being something that isn't so heavily tackled within the industry. Sure RYV could perhaps be Marvel trying to cash in on this interest but that's all it will be seen as by many Marvel Fans, a cash grab. Marvel just trying to have their cake and eat it too which makes a lot of Marvel readers feel betrayed. To compete against something like Superman Rebirth, it has to be part of the cannon universe. It cannot be an AU, especially since most readers have known how fragile an AU is and that the writers from the cannon universe can toy with them whenever they want as seen within the stories of Spider-Gwen and series within the MC2.

    Sure certain powers do not want the marriage to return and feel that Peter Parker is better with the single life, but powers change. Seats are altered, and from polls, statements and thanks to merchandise and films displayed to a non comic reading audience, Peter is preferred by majority to be with Mary Jane. It would be a definite foolish play not to change things up again and restore the marriage of MJ and Peter, especially when the fake announcements of Zendaya being MJ caused such popularity for the film and when Marvel Comics needs to get something big to compete against DC. The marriage is highly profitable and would gather an older base of consumers that stopped reading since OMD. Will they change it, who knows? But it's probably for the best to annul OMD as it would be the largest cash grab Marvel could obtain

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    To be totally honest, I've never understood how it was best for the long term interest of the character, but I'm idiosyncratic like that and hardly objective.
    This has been explained many times over the years. Once Peter's a married man, that automatically puts certain limits on what you can do with him. Once he's with one woman forever, there's narrative parameters that you've got to stick within. That's ok for characters like Reed or even Luke Cage, whose love lives as single gents have never played a big part in their appeal. But Peter has had many ladies in his life, all of whom have contributed to the richness of the book. He's not like Superman who's primarily only had eyes for Lois. He's had a number of strong love interests over the years. Marrying him to MJ limits the soap opera aspect of the book that was always a great part of its appeal. Being married may be a soap opera of its own but it's not the same as being a single guy. Having a new love interest enter into his life periodically is also one way to continually keep the book fresh.

    Also, if Peter's married, there's only so much drama you can create between Peter and MJ without running over the same ground or making one or the other look bad. You don't want to have either one start to get restless in their marriage and start to have eyes for other people. You don't want either one to have an affair, you don't want either one to start to resent the other for whatever reason. Then that limits the sort of conflict you can have between them. If they're generally always pretty happy with each other, from a dramatic standpoint it gets old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesedique View Post
    And really, if the current MCU incarnation is a high-school age Peter Parker, and Slott claims they have no intention of reverting comic book-Peter back into that, what does it really matter if he's married in the comics or not? It's not like there's visible pressure to conform the comics or "brand" to all the rest of the media, if the current crop of Marvel comics is any indication.

    It's because a handful of current writer or editor types simply don't "want" to write him as such. (Unless there's some kind of clause Disney inserted when they bought Marvel that Slott can't publicly talk about--though he's already shown to be less than truthful about stuff all the time anyway, so why believe him?). Of course, the current PTB also think he works best portrayed as 15 years old mentally, in the body of a 20-something. So that kinda shows you where they're coming from.
    Slott explained that there is a desire among some writers and editors to have a married Spidey. Your belief that there's simply a stubborn group of writers and editors blocking the marriage from returning and once they're gone, anything's fair game, is false. It's about brand tending and maintaining the long term health of the character.

    By now it's been pretty directly explained that the marriage isn't coming back and, in a general sense, why it isn't. You can keep thinking that, hey, maybe one day it will but when it never does, well, you can't say you weren't told.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    My thoughts are that it was always known that the higher ups didn't care for the marriage since it's first printings. The marriage was only created because Stan Lee himself willed it so because fans loved Peter and Mary Jane together. At the time, it was seen as preposterous for a hero to marry, something like a comicbook taboo, but as per usual, Spider-Man saw fit to destroy another common comicbook trope.

    Though many fans enjoyed the marriage, it was really the Marvel Comics themselves who didn't like it. Some writers didn't know how to write married relationships and others thought it would be a ball and chain for Peter's life. Some didn't even like him with MJ to begin with, and thus many alterations began to emerge from this.

    During the time of the 90s, thanks to poor decisions by the comic book industry, Marvel went bankrupt wich caused a complete change of powers. A decision was made that the suits got to make more decisions as to how things ran...and thus this is how Clone saga became a horrid mess. With these changes caused more discussion as to what to do, and thus the higherups commenced a story that would 'Kill Mary Jane'

    Most of you can recall in the late 90s MJ apparently died in a plane crash. Immediately and without a moment to breathe, a romance was attempted to be pushed onto Peter in the next issue. Some issues and time later, it is revealed that MJ was not killed in a plane crash at all but was kidnapped by a stalker and stuck in his basement. This kind of thing seemed more like the higher ups wanted to try and get rid of Mary Jane, only to have the whole thing blow up in their faces and thus having to bring her back in a way that is as bizzare as the genetic actress with Aunt May (which was also a last minute change thanks to the editors changing their mind about the baby).

    Higher ups try and try again to get rid of the romance, but lost a ton of readership after Clone Saga. Thanks to a growing readership from Spider-Man becoming an Avenger, they attempted to remove the whole thing in OMD which slashed their readership immensely. They had to start producing several Spider-Man issues every month and create BND to try and get their numbers back up. Still, most of the stuff that took place afterwards was known as lackluster and not comparable to older stories. The only time they managed to grow readership was when they began this IMMENSE EVENTS.

    Superior Spider-Man, Spider-Island, Spider-Verse, every single one was back to back with only a few issues inbetween. The only way to keep readers on the book now was to create massive events with ground shaking moves, but every backflip preformed, the next event had to up the stakes. They had to kill characters off, they went for shock value, they made things dark, and Slott is good at making these twists and turns but only for a moment. You notice with every event and every change created, the writing is weakening. Too much left undone, not enough detail or development. Like the Marvel Universe Events, Spider-Man events are now becoming boring and Spider-Man has just become a one trick pony...but this is all they can do now. Shock value is the only thing that will keep readers here.

    But as DC's rebirth has won over more readership and Marvel constantly doing events, Marvel Comics consumerbase is waining and are going to DC. Marvel has reverted back to the old superhero tropes for every character they do. No marriages, no children, no long term relationships. Jessica Jones child has gone missing and Spider Woman is about to be cancelled. Classic marriages within the Marvel universe have been split apart and iconic romances have vanished into thin air.

    Meanwhile, DC grabs the readers in with granting these sort of relationships. Superman has become immensley popular thanks to bringing back the classic Lois and Clark romance and even giving the power couple a child. Batman has always had kids and continues to round them up into his family. Wally's marriage may be gone but he is restoring it slowly as he has found his true love again. Before, Green Arrow and Black Canary were not allowed to be together in their comics, but casting aside the new 52, the romance is rekindling. And let us not forget that Aquaman's wedding is around the corner.

    These large changes within DC have granted them large readership and a more loyal fanbase. This a change in the company and in the right direction that welcomes new and old readers alike without much tension.

    There actually is a large popularity for kids in hero comics presently. Something about the super family dynamic seems to strike many people's fancy along with it being something that isn't so heavily tackled within the industry. Sure RYV could perhaps be Marvel trying to cash in on this interest but that's all it will be seen as by many Marvel Fans, a cash grab. Marvel just trying to have their cake and eat it too which makes a lot of Marvel readers feel betrayed. To compete against something like Superman Rebirth, it has to be part of the cannon universe. It cannot be an AU, especially since most readers have known how fragile an AU is and that the writers from the cannon universe can toy with them whenever they want as seen within the stories of Spider-Gwen and series within the MC2.

    Sure certain powers do not want the marriage to return and feel that Peter Parker is better with the single life, but powers change. Seats are altered, and from polls, statements and thanks to merchandise and films displayed to a non comic reading audience, Peter is preferred by majority to be with Mary Jane. It would be a definite foolish play not to change things up again and restore the marriage of MJ and Peter, especially when the fake announcements of Zendaya being MJ caused such popularity for the film and when Marvel Comics needs to get something big to compete against DC. The marriage is highly profitable and would gather an older base of consumers that stopped reading since OMD. Will they change it, who knows? But it's probably for the best to annul OMD as it would be the largest cash grab Marvel could obtain
    Cash isn't a problem for Marvel. The marriage isn't coming back.

    DC will eventually be on Rebirth II or III and the Spider marriage will still be just a thing of the past or of an alt-universe.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    This has been explained many times over the years. Once Peter's a married man, that automatically puts certain limits on what you can do with him. Once he's with one woman forever, there's narrative parameters that you've got to stick within. That's ok for characters like Reed or even Luke Cage, whose love lives as single gents have never played a big part in their appeal. But Peter has had many ladies in his life, all of whom have contributed to the richness of the book. He's not like Superman who's primarily only had eyes for Lois. He's had a number of strong love interests over the years. Marrying him to MJ limits the soap opera aspect of the book that was always a great part of its appeal. Being married may be a soap opera of its own but it's not the same as being a single guy. Having a new love interest enter into his life periodically is also one way to continually keep the book fresh.
    [IMG]https://i.*****.com/vi/wFJ6UZ0SkYY/maxresdefault.jpg[/IMG]

    Ok, really here with this? Who are these love interests you speak of?

    The only other significant one is Gwen who is in the ground. Felicia has been twisted into some funhouse mirror version of the character.

    If you're going to make a claim like this, please back it up with examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Also, if Peter's married, there's only so much drama you can create between Peter and MJ without running over the same ground or making one or the other look bad. You don't want to have either one start to get restless in their marriage and start to have eyes for other people. You don't want either one to have an affair, you don't want either one to start to resent the other for whatever reason. Then that limits the sort of conflict you can have between them. If they're generally always pretty happy with each other, from a dramatic standpoint it gets old.
    This is all pretty arbitrary stuff that "may" limit writers.

    Pre-OMD, I don't see where JMS, PAD, Jenkins or Sacassa were limited by any of this stuff you mention. The Peter / MJ dynamic made the stories that much richer. Your mileage may vary of course. Personally, I would take about any story 2001-2007 up to OMD over anything from 2008 - present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Slott explained that there is a desire among some writers and editors to have a married Spidey. Your belief that there's simply a stubborn group of writers and editors blocking the marriage from returning and once they're gone, anything's fair game, is false. It's about brand tending and maintaining the long term health of the character.

    By now it's been pretty directly explained that the marriage isn't coming back and, in a general sense, why it isn't. You can keep thinking that, hey, maybe one day it will but when it never does, well, you can't say you weren't told.
    All this talk of branding seems rather facile when the brand is whatever Marvel says it is at any time.

    Sam Wilson is Captain America? That's the brand.

    X-23 is Wolverine? That's the brand.

    Riri Williams is Iron Man / Iron Heart? That's the brand.

    So the whole branding thing sounds like a good company line, but it's just another in a long line of artificial restrictions certain people want to place on the franchise. It's really meaningless, especially when the Marvel Comics corner of the world is more often than not its own sandbox.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Cash isn't a problem for Marvel. The marriage isn't coming back.

    DC will eventually be on Rebirth II or III and the Spider marriage will still be just a thing of the past or of an alt-universe.
    It's one thing to hear Slott say this, as he's an employee under work for hire conditions. But you don't really know this any more than any other commentator here.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    DC will eventually be on Rebirth II or III and the Spider marriage will still be just a thing of the past or of an alt-universe.
    So long as it remains promoted in some capacity through those alternate realities, it will never remain in the rear-view mirror because new material is still being published. You're never going to hear the end of demands for it to be reinstated in the big leagues.

    You can't even dismiss the alt realities because Marvel love to cross the realities over with the main stuff from time to time, and when RYV's ongoing was first announced, the possibility of a crossover with 616 was brought up. I don't know if they'll commit to that, but if Spider-Gwen can benefit from being a part of mainstream events, why can't Spider-Dad and family? It'd enable Marvel to twist the emotional knife, give the core Peter something to compare his life to, and introduce new readers to an alternative they may want to try.
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 03-11-2017 at 01:22 PM.

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    This has been explained many times over the years. Once Peter's a married man, that automatically puts certain limits on what you can do with him. Once he's with one woman forever, there's narrative parameters that you've got to stick within. That's ok for characters like Reed or even Luke Cage, whose love lives as single gents have never played a big part in their appeal. But Peter has had many ladies in his life, all of whom have contributed to the richness of the book. He's not like Superman who's primarily only had eyes for Lois. He's had a number of strong love interests over the years. Marrying him to MJ limits the soap opera aspect of the book that was always a great part of its appeal. Being married may be a soap opera of its own but it's not the same as being a single guy. Having a new love interest enter into his life periodically is also one way to continually keep the book fresh.

    Also, if Peter's married, there's only so much drama you can create between Peter and MJ without running over the same ground or making one or the other look bad. You don't want to have either one start to get restless in their marriage and start to have eyes for other people. You don't want either one to have an affair, you don't want either one to start to resent the other for whatever reason. Then that limits the sort of conflict you can have between them. If they're generally always pretty happy with each other, from a dramatic standpoint it gets old.
    Actually, this cannot hold since they removed Reed Richards and his family from the Universe and broke up Luke and Jessica while making their kid 'Vanish'. As per usual, seems that they are going the Cable route with her since kids aren't really allowed to stay in Marvel 616


    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Slott explained that there is a desire among some writers and editors to have a married Spidey. Your belief that there's simply a stubborn group of writers and editors blocking the marriage from returning and once they're gone, anything's fair game, is false. It's about brand tending and maintaining the long term health of the character.

    By now it's been pretty directly explained that the marriage isn't coming back and, in a general sense, why it isn't. You can keep thinking that, hey, maybe one day it will but when it never does, well, you can't say you weren't told.



    Cash isn't a problem for Marvel. The marriage isn't coming back.

    DC will eventually be on Rebirth II or III and the Spider marriage will still be just a thing of the past or of an alt-universe.

    Thing is that Marvel is now split into several groups. MCU is the film factory that has split ties with Marvel Comics as they found working with them "uncomfortable". MCU makes money and profit, but sales numbers have shown that Marvel Comics have't had the revenue they once posessed. They certainly have Disney as a safety net yes, but Mickey certainly will have to turn his head if their numbers continue to plummet. It's worrisome when you see a company known as one of the two largest comic companies unable to stay up in their lists. It's because of poor decision making on their part, mostly in how they handle sales, but also how their quality in their products have weakened.

    Though this could just be worry and speculation as with DC making 500 rebirths for all we know.

    Right now, we are only theorizing things and it's nice to consider all options. Marvel Comics higher ups do see Peter being better marketed as a single young superhero and that he could be marketed to new readers as such, but there lays big problems. They have poorly worked on marketing him as such.


    For starters, he has aged too much in the 616. As stated by Slott and others, Peter Parker is around 25-35 years old so unless they once again retcon the character back to highschool age (meaning they would have to remove Miles from the 616 since it would become even more confusing to have two teenage spidermen) they cannot go with this angle. That's like saying Batman is a young just out of college superhero.

    Speaking of Batman, people have made large comparisons as to Peter's new direction being somewhat of a copy between IronMan and Batman. This deters new readers since everyone (comic readers and non comic readers) know him as a Photographer to the daily bugle. It doesn't always need to be a photographer to the bugle but the CEO angle was done so fast and so drastically, new people have no way to jump on and understand, especially when there is another event every few months. There is no starting point for new readers to get into. There is nothing familiar to latch on and thus they become lost and thus do not continue reading.

    One option Marvel Comics has been doing is just rebooting a series back to issue 1. This seems to have done well in the past, but like the events, is very limited in how long it works. Marvel Comics still does this but it would seem they will be putting a halt to this very soon. They are loosing readership at an alarming rate. This is not only for Spider-Man but for most of their comics thanks to certain decisions they have made. The quality within the books, the heavy price, the removal of the digital copy of your physical purchase and the constant events have made readers leave the books. The "meat and potatoes" route they decide to take and the destruction of Parker Industries will only take them so far. They will need to do some serious changes to regain readership and thus the Marriage becomes an option on the table that would be very welcomed by Spider-Man readers.

    Also, I have discovered that during this year, Marvel will be releasing certain lines of Marchandise that showcases a Peter and Mary Jane's romance. It seems rather curious. Though this could be seen as another ploy to bait people into buying constant variants and merchandise, but this also just proves that it really isn't a Minority for people wanting MJ and Peter together. OMD is known as the worst blunder a comic company has ever made, thus removing it would ease readers into trusting Marvel and seeing them really going back to what makes their comics iconic and appealing.

    DC is also going to be starting to release digital copies of their comics within the physical ones purchased, and with nicer quality paper and at times, a cheaper price tag, DC will continue to grow a readership. Marvel needs to do something they need something big like removing OMD. It doesn't need to be that specifically, but it needs to be big as big as undoing a blunder like that. The past 10 years of sales of Spider-Man comics show a mixed charts that are never stable, showing that the way they handled removing the marriage has cost them.

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    There are elements of this post that "wax rhapsodic" and over-romanticize things to an endearing, but silly degree. I get that there is a section of fandom that is very passionate about this subject-- which is great-- but that shouldn't be a license to rewrite the behind-the-scenes history.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    My thoughts are that it was always known that the higher ups didn't care for the marriage since it's first printings.
    This is true. But this also extended beyond the higher ups to both editorial and creatives. It was seen as progressing the character too far and distancing him from his core. While for a number of fans who were reading along with the book at the time, it was an amazing status quo change that they got to witness and follow-- it pushed the character past a point where new readership wouldn't be introduced to the character in his regular setting. The core continuity Spider-Man can't be a character for one generation, he's an icon that every generation should be able to discover.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    The marriage was only created because Stan Lee himself willed it so because fans loved Peter and Mary Jane together.
    That's a very flowery, over-the-top retelling of what actually happened. Stan was at a con and a fan asked if Spidey and MJ could get married. Stan thought that'd be a neat idea and incorporated it into the strip-- not because "fans loved Peter and Mary Jane together", but because in true Stan fashion, he thought it would get everyone's attention and get people excited for the daily strip. This wasn't a "We have to do it" scenario, it was more of a "Why not?"

    The event started grabbing headlines and making news. And that was a surprise to those working on the strip AND to people on staff at Marvel. It was that media attention that got people at Marvel going, "We've got to get a piece of that!" And so the marriage was rushed into the comic continuity. In the book at the time, Black Cat was the current love interest. There's even a scene in one of the issues before the big media announcement, where MJ's lack of being in the book is the source of an actual joke. Peter and MJ's romance was quickly re-ignited and their super-fast courtship towards the marriage was inorganically shoved into the Spidey books ASAP. One of the most legendary Spider-Man stories of all time, KRAVEN'S LAST HUNT, had to quickly be rewritten to include the fact that Peter and MJ had been married-- as the original draft had been written about a non-married Spider-Man.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    At the time, it was seen as preposterous for a hero to marry, something like a comicbook taboo, but as per usual, Spider-Man saw fit to destroy another common comicbook trope.
    Except for the fact that Reed Richards and Sue Storm had long been married, as well as Vision and Scarlet Witch, and many other Marvel heroes.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    Though many fans enjoyed the marriage, it was really the Marvel Comics themselves who didn't like it. Some writers didn't know how to write married relationships and others thought it would be a ball and chain for Peter's life. Some didn't even like him with MJ to begin with, and thus many alterations began to emerge from this.
    Saying "many fans" believed this, that, or the other thing is always a subjective call to make. Conversely, your excuses for why "some writers" didn't want to write the character (or sillier still, "didn't know how") is kinda loopy. Many of the writers at that time also wrote stories for Reed & Sue and other married characters. Something the powers that be, editorial, and all but a few writers agreed on, was that it wasn't a status quo that specifically fit well for the ongoing Spider-Man franchise.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    During the time of the 90s, thanks to poor decisions by the comic book industry Marvel went bankrupt wich caused a complete change of powers.
    This is close to accurate, but a little skewed. There was a speculator boom in the 90's that raised the tide for all comic companies and, when it crashed, affected all comic companies. (And the direct market, which saw the closure or many comic shops across America, stores where comics from all companies needed to be sold in order for those companies to stay afloat.) Many companies crashed. DC, which was tied to Time Warner was in a safe place. Marvel? Not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    A decision was made that the suits got to make more decisions as to how things ran...and thus this is how Clone saga became a horrid mess. With these changes caused more discussion as to what to do, and thus the higherups commenced a story that would 'Kill Mary Jane'
    I think you might be creating your own "head canon" here. The company's desire to undo the marriage was constantly in play. The Clone Saga was before the bankruptcy (1996). If anything, returning the original Peter Parker back into play as Spider-Man (ending the Clone Saga) was done as an effort to right the ship during the financial crisis.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    Most of you can recall in the late 90s MJ apparently died in a plane crash. Immediately and without a moment to breathe, a romance was attempted to be pushed onto Peter in the next issue. Some issues and time later, it is revealed that MJ was not killed in a plane crash at all but was kidnapped by a stalker and stuck in his basement. This kind of thing seemed more like the higher ups wanted to try and get rid of Mary Jane, only to have the whole thing blow up in their faces and thus having to bring her back in a way that is as bizzare as the genetic actress with Aunt May (which was also a last minute change thanks to the editors changing their mind about the baby).
    Again, the efforts to undo the marriage was constantly in play from all-corners behind the scenes. This was not a new or sudden thing. Many attempts were made.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    Higher ups try and try again to get rid of the romance, but lost a ton of readership after Clone Saga.
    Yes. During a bankruptcy and down turn in the market that shut direct market stores across the country.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    Thanks to a growing readership from Spider-Man becoming an Avenger...
    Again. This is your own personal "head canon". And you've now jumped almost NINE YEARS to Bendis' New Avengers. A number of things happened in between there. Like say-- one of the biggest selling super hero movies of its time-- and the complete reworking, highly publicized, and expertly executed revival of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN with JMS and JRJR.
    Most people, even the creators working on NEW AVENGERS, would tell you that the Avengers readership grew more from the inclusion of Spider-Man and Wolverine then the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    ...they attempted to remove the whole thing in OMD which slashed their readership immensely.
    Again, this is up for debate. The JMS run hit a sales level for a while that received a massive bump (as ALL Marvel titles of that time did) from tying into CIVIL WAR and successfully holding on to that readership with a story which dealt with the Civil War aftermath. After OMD, the sales on ASM settled into the same range that ASM had been at before the Civil War tie-ins. On top of that, the book had switched over to a 3X a month schedule. That version of ASM sold just as well as the ASM run Pre-Civil War-- and the combined sales of the 3 issues of ASM far outsold the combined sales of ASM and the other two ongoing Spider-Man books that ran alongside it. Marvel was very pleased with the results that, in aggregate, earned them more profits for producing the exact same number of pages of Spider-Man material a month.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    They had to start producing several Spider-Man issues every month and create BND to try and get their numbers back up.
    Marvel had stolen 52's editor, Steve Wacker, away from DC for the exact purpose of coordinating the 3X's a month Amazing Spider-Man run. Trying this experiment had been brought up multiple times over the years, but Marvel editorial didn't think they had the ability to pull it off until they saw Steve editing the weekly 52 comic for DC. When they brought him over to Marvel, that was the plan-- no matter WHAT the Spider-Man story was at the time-- OMD or not.

    1/2

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    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    Still, most of the stuff that took place afterwards was known as lackluster and not comparable to older stories. The only time they managed to grow readership was when they began this IMMENSE EVENTS.
    Again, this is subjective, and based on your tastes-- and those who agree with you. And I could counter with similar anecdotal accounts of people who liked the BND run-- or with more concrete proof that Marvel's sales of the BND collections do well enough to put out different formats (like the ultimate collections) and they merit enough interest to keep releasing further volumes-- and that this is not the case with all runs.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    Superior Spider-Man, Spider-Island, Spider-Verse, every single one was back to back with only a few issues inbetween.
    This isn't true. We average ONE Spider event per year (this is the case with most lines at Marvel: X-Universe, Avengers, etc.).
    The start of my solo run saw 18 issues of done-in-ones, two-parters, and three-parters before SPIDER-ISLAND.
    There were 7 issues between that and ENDS OF THE EARTH.
    There were 12 issues between that and the launch of SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN (which wasn't really an event, but rather a 31 issue series).
    There were 26 issues between the launch of Superior and our next 5 part story/event GOBLIN NATION.
    There were 9 issues and 5 point one issues (so 14 issues) between that and SPIDER-VERSE.
    There were 22 issues of ASM between that and CLONE CONSPIRACY.

    The model for most Marvel comics is to tell one five or six issue storyline to the next-- usually for the sake of how they break into a trade paperback. Over on ASM, we space them out and don't do them as often.

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    The only way to keep readers on the book now was to create massive events with ground shaking moves, but every backflip preformed, the next event had to up the stakes.
    That's called comics. Or, more specifically, Marvel Comics. Everyone does it. Everyone did it. All the way back to Stan. I'm sorry that we've been doing it in such a way-- while telling MANY stories in between-- that has kept Spider-Man as Marvel's best-selling super hero comic in a way that you, personally, don't enjoy it (sans-marriage).

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    They had to kill characters off, they went for shock value, they made things dark...
    Again: Marvel Comics. Since 1962.

    And from here you veer into what you, personally, enjoy and what you don't. And while that's great and all-- it's not exactly an objective measure by any means. And, again, some of the conclusions you're drawing seem to be based on the same kinds of "head canon" that you brought to the first half of your post.

    2/2

    Would love to stay and chat about some of the rest of this...
    ...but I've got a movie date to see GET OUT.
    (Shhh! No spoilers.)

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