Thread Drift: Will One More Day ever be reversed?

[comicscollector]

Johnny Blaze has a great deal to say about deals with Mephisto as well. I have to LOL at how many people never bothered reading the answer too.

Johny Blaze,i would say it is diferent.Because Mephisto was part of the origin of that character.
But that dialog from Mephisto in OMD,is about the same as any other dialog from other Mephisto stories.
So all that melodramatic dialog from Mephisto is the same as any other story he appears against other heroes.
And guess what,Mephisto keeps being a villain that never get any sort of victory against the heroes.
So yeah,it is surprising to see some people reactions to the OMD story after all this years,just because he was the plot device chosen to the retcon.Just as the marriage of Peter and Mary Jane was a editorially driven story as well.
The way i see it,it was not diferent using Mephisto from say Loki or Beyonder,because OMD was a editorially driven story to change a status quo.
The only diference is with Mephisto that corny dialog is part of the character.

[Metamorphosis]

I don't see how anyone could look at the dregs left in the wake of OMD and say "I don't think there's a story to be told here."

Peter going up against Mephisto again could be a really redemptive arc for him, one he desperately needs, and a cathartic one for readers, which we in turn desperately need.

[Spidercide]

Johny Blaze,i would say it is diferent.Because Mephisto was part of the origin of that character.
But that dialog from Mephisto in OMD,is about the same as any other dialog from other Mephisto stories.
So all that melodramatic dialog from Mephisto is the same as any other story he appears against other heroes.
And guess what,Mephisto keeps being a villain that never get any sort of victory against the heroes.
So yeah,it is surprising to see some people reactions to the OMD story after all this years,just because he was the plot device chosen to the retcon.Just as the marriage of Peter and Mary Jane was a editorially driven story as well.
The way i see it,it was not diferent using Mephisto from say Loki or Beyonder,because OMD was a editorially driven story to change a status quo.
The only diference is with Mephisto that corny dialog is part of the character.

This is an incredibly loose and ill defined argument unless you can provide corrobarative evidence.

The difference is I do not recall Mephisto ever making an actual deal with other characters that they went through with and promising them suffering before hand.

I rememebr him saying stuff like they'll pay for defeating him or whatever. But literally Peter and Mj's suffering was PART of the goddam deal going in. He laid that out ont he table.

If it was a business meeting he'd be the one saying he wants them to suffer and in exchange they'd get Aunt May's life. That was the entire point and frankly its goddam asinine of Mephisto to ever present this deal to the Parker's if he ISN'T going to get anything out of it.

So it isn't just corny dialogue at all. That line of reasoning is ignorant of the specifics of the story.

Again Mephisto literally showed up and said to them:

"Let me retcon your marriage so that your two eternally suffer without realizing it and removing your love fucks over God and in exchange I will save Aunt May"

Their suffering was EXPLICITELY part of the goddam deal. They knew that going in and had to decide if they wanted to AGREE to it. This wasn't a corny threat this was mephisto presenting his reasons for WANTING this deal in the first place.

Plus there is nothing in any SPIDER-MAN story to suggest that Mephisto's word about their suffering shouldn't be trusted. Why would he lie about that. he might lie to spread chaos and confusion or to trick people for the sake of his deals but his lies almost always in my experiences have been done for his own benefit. What purpose would it serve him to pretend to them that they'd suffer immensely but actually they wouldn't. If he wants them to agree NOT telling them that would actually make it MORE likely they'd agree, not less. By telling them they'd suffer it's presenting a massive incentive for them to not agree.

Then you have the fact that Peter's loss wasn't the result of Mephisto's trick. At best the thing Mephisto tricked them over was their possible future child which was just a cruel and disgusting element to the story so I headcanon that he was BSing over that. At worst if you go by OMIT if Peter hadn't followed the red pigeon apparently he could've used the power of love and chest compressions to prevent Aunt May from dying all along, so Mephisto DID trick him.

Peter's actual loss, the ongoing loss he's suffering and the ongoing win Mephisto has (and apparently he's fully aware of it to boot if you go by Deadpool continuity) was that he HANDED Mephisto what he wanted. The loss was Peter being summarily unheroic and irresponsible and selling out himself, MJ, God and everything Aunt May and Uncle Ben had ever raised him to believe in all because he 'couldn't live with the guilt'.

THAT is why Peter lost and that is the ongoing demonic victory hanging over the series right now.
The saddest part is as asinine as the build up was the potential was there for one of the greatest moments in Spider-Man history.

Imagine Peter at that lowest of ebbs in his life and with his character eviscerated so horribly by OMD part 4 and with MJ even trying to get him to agree to the deal...and at the end of the day he remembers his values stands up straight like a goddam man and says fuck you to the Devil, because he'd never betray Aunt May, MJ or everything he believes in.

THAT could've been powerful, even if Aunt May had somehow still lived.

[Spidercide]

I don't see how anyone could look at the dregs left in the wake of OMD and say "I don't think there's a story to be told here."

Peter going up against Mephisto again could be a really redemptive arc for him, one he desperately needs, and a cathartic one for readers, which we in turn desperately need.

I don't even think we should go that route. Just explain why he was so OOC and then explain why Mephisto was too by saying it wasn't Mephisto in the first place

[comicscollector]

This is an incredibly loose and ill defined argument unless you can provide corrobarative evidence.

The difference is I do not recall Mephisto ever making an actual deal with other characters that they went through with and promising them suffering before hand.

Really?
So you never read any other story with Mephisto before?
That corny dialog is part of Mephisto characterisation ever since this character was created in the 60s.

I rememebr him saying stuff like they'll pay for defeating him or whatever. But literally Peter and Mj's suffering was PART of the goddam deal going in. He laid that out ont he table.

If it was a business meeting he'd be the one saying he wants them to suffer and in exchange they'd get Aunt May's life. That was the entire point and frankly its goddam asinine of Mephisto to ever present this deal to the Parker's if he ISN'T going to get anything out of it.

Villains doing stupid things is not surprising.
In other news water is wet.

So it isn't just corny dialogue at all. That line of reasoning is ignorant of the specifics of the story.

Again Mephisto literally showed up and said to them:

"Let me retcon your marriage so that your two eternally suffer without realizing it and removing your love fucks over God and in exchange I will save Aunt May"

Their suffering was EXPLICITELY part of the goddam deal. They knew that going in and had to decide if they wanted to AGREE to it. This wasn't a corny threat this was mephisto presenting his reasons for WANTING this deal in the first place.

Nope,sorry but thats just part of Mephisto chgaracterisation.
All that corny dialog and such.
If it was a story about Wolverine and Mephisto,Mephisto would have the same corny and melodramatic dialog.

Plus there is nothing in any SPIDER-MAN story to suggest that Mephisto's word about their suffering shouldn't be trusted. Why would he lie about that. he might lie to spread chaos and confusion or to trick people for the sake of his deals but his lies almost always in my experiences have been done for his own benefit. What purpose would it serve him to pretend to them that they'd suffer immensely but actually they wouldn't. If he wants them to agree NOT telling them that would actually make it MORE likely they'd agree, not less. By telling them they'd suffer it's presenting a massive incentive for them to not agree.

Why would a character named Prince of lies do something like that ?
Again because that corny dialogs is part of the characterisation of the character.

Then you have the fact that Peter's loss wasn't the result of Mephisto's trick. At best the thing Mephisto tricked them over was their possible future child which was just a cruel and disgusting element to the story so I headcanon that he was BSing over that. At worst if you go by OMIT if Peter hadn't followed the red pigeon apparently he could've used the power of love and chest compressions to prevent Aunt May from dying all along, so Mephisto DID trick him.

Peter's actual loss, the ongoing loss he's suffering and the ongoing win Mephisto has (and apparently he's fully aware of it to boot if you go by Deadpool continuity) was that he HANDED Mephisto what he wanted. The loss was Peter being summarily unheroic and irresponsible and selling out himself, MJ, God and everything Aunt May and Uncle Ben had ever raised him to believe in all because he 'couldn't live with the guilt'.

Actually it was Mary Jane that made the deal not Spider-Man.

THAT is why Peter lost and that is the ongoing demonic victory hanging over the series right now.

What is this?
Fan fiction?
"Ongoing demonic victory",give me a break.
Mephisto was only a plot device in a editorially driven story,it could had been Loki or Beyonder the character,but it was Mephisto ,and as anybody that have read stories with Mephisto knows that corny dialog is part of the character.

The saddest part is as asinine as the build up was the potential was there for one of the greatest moments in Spider-Man history.

Imagine Peter at that lowest of ebbs in his life and with his character eviscerated so horribly by OMD part 4 and with MJ even trying to get him to agree to the deal...and at the end of the day he remembers his values stands up straight like a goddam man and says fuck you to the Devil, because he'd never betray Aunt May, MJ or everything he believes in.

THAT could've been powerful, even if Aunt May had somehow still lived.

Spider -man stories are full of tragedies,starting from the origin story.
So having a story in which Mary Jane agrees to switch the marriage for Aunt May life is sad but not as contrived and a example of bad writing as i read in some reviews about the OMD story.
So i really dont have that negative opinion about OMD.
Because it is a editorially driven story that have Mephisto as a plot device,so i dont see this story or Amazing Spider Man Annual 21 (another editorially driven story) as i see any other regular Spider-Man story.

[penthotal]

I'm sure that the creators original intent was for the character to grow and evolve since Peter was only in high school for the first 28 issues.

actually, Stan Lee said multiple times that if he knew Spidey would have lasted this long it would have never moved him to college.

[WeirdSpider]

Actually it was Mary Jane that made the deal not Spider-Man.

Only cause Peter guilt tripped her into it.

actually, Stan Lee said multiple times that if he knew Spidey would have lasted this long it would have never moved him to college.

Source please.

God I'm glad that Peter left high school cause the whole Peter/Flash/Liz, Peter/Betty/Liz story was so played out.

[Mister Mets]

How is Aunt May's telling Peter to let her die any different from her telling him before she got hurt that if she was ever comatose that she'd want him to pull the plug?

These discussions and decisions happen in real life but Peter was a whiney manchild who couldn't live with the guilt

Generally speaking, people don't ask for the plug to be pulled if they're comatose. They ask for it if their quality of life will be so poor that the effort to save them won't be worth it. If they can recover from a coma and function normally afterwards, they usually aren't going to insist that the doctor let them die.

[Metamorphosis]

Generally speaking, people don't ask for the plug to be pulled if they're comatose. They ask for it if their quality of life will be so poor that the effort to save them won't be worth it. If they can recover from a coma and function normally afterwards, they usually aren't going to insist that the doctor let them die.

This is irrelevant since it was May coming to him in an astral form during a seance telling Peter to let her pass, while she was already in the coma.

Another one of those areas where I'm not sure applying real-world practices is applicable to an editorially-mandated comic story where the end result was preordained.

[Fearless Heart]

Stan Lee wrote this in ASM 365:

[Miles To Go]

Stan The Man and Joey Q holding a special Cup'O'Joe for charity on April 14th

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/cup-o-j...ts-32639126506

Given the two have differing philosophies on the marriage, and depending on the right question being asked, this could be of interest.

[Spidercide]

Really?
So you never read any other story with Mephisto before?
That corny dialog is part of Mephisto characterisation ever since this character was created in the 60s.



Villains doing stupid things is not surprising.
In other news water is wet.



Nope,sorry but thats just part of Mephisto chgaracterisation.
All that corny dialog and such.
If it was a story about Wolverine and Mephisto,Mephisto would have the same corny and melodramatic dialog.



Why would a character named Prince of lies do something like that ?
Again because that corny dialogs is part of the characterisation of the character.



Actually it was Mary Jane that made the deal not Spider-Man.



What is this?
Fan fiction?
"Ongoing demonic victory",give me a break.
Mephisto was only a plot device in a editorially driven story,it could had been Loki or Beyonder the character,but it was Mephisto ,and as anybody that have read stories with Mephisto knows that corny dialog is part of the character.




Spider -man stories are full of tragedies,starting from the origin story.
So having a story in which Mary Jane agrees to switch the marriage for Aunt May life is sad but not as contrived and a example of bad writing as i read in some reviews about the OMD story.
So i really dont have that negative opinion about OMD.
Because it is a editorially driven story that have Mephisto as a plot device,so i dont see this story or Amazing Spider Man Annual 21 (another editorially driven story) as i see any other regular Spider-Man story.

Corny dialogue doesn’t render the sentiments untrue. Doc Ock has somewhat consistently spoken in a corny way, but just because he’s routiently said sutff like

“Accursed arachnid. You shall know the fury of my superior intellect”

Doesn’t mean the sentiments behind that are mitigated. He still genuinely means that Spider-Man is an asshole whom he is going to hurt through the use of his intelligence. Just because he didn’t phrase it as:

“You asshole. I’m gonna outthink you and fuck you up”

Doesn’t change that.


Again though, your arguments are weak. You’ve yet to prove your point through citing specific examples. In particular ‘villains do stupid things and water is wet’ doesn’t hold up. What stupid thing has Mephisto actually done precisely?

Nothing. He wanted Peter and Mj to suffer, he was up front about that.

This is to say nothing about how villains doing stupid things is an unacceptable hand wave explanation. Villains do stupid things in certain specific ways, it doesn’t justify them acting foolish in any and every way imaginable just because they are villains. This isn’t the dawn of film where every villain twirled their moustache.

We aren’t talking about dialogue alone.

Dialogue is nothing more than the specific combination of words a writer chooses to convey a sentiment through the characters.

The point is Mephisto’s sentiment about how Peter and MJ will suffer if they agree to this deal and that that is really his entire point in offering it is not mitigated merely because of how he’s been phrased in conveying that idea.

“Why would a character named Prince of lies do something like that ?”

Because HE’S THE DEVIL! His entire MO is to harvest souls and cause pain and suffering because it personally satisfies him.

It is literally the entire point of him presenting the deal to them in the first place. He’s telling them that THIS is what he gets out of it. What purpose does lying to them about that serve? Nothing.


No bullshit. The argument that MJ made the deal is nonsense.

Read it again.

MJ dictated the terms, but only AFTER Peter put her on the spot and guilt tripped her earlier int he issue. He basically said if Aunt May dies it’d destroy him and was rebuffing MJ’s arguments about Aunt May’s age. He essentially put the burden on her shoulders to agree to the deal. Either she agrees to the deal which she knows for a fact is morally wrong and will make her and Peter suffer and fuck over God or she doesn’t and has Aunt May’s death on her conscience and also destroy her husband. Peter was the one who put her in that position and it was a dick move.

So she dictated the terms but PETER had the last fucking word. He was the one who when all was said and done had the power to make the deal happen or not and he gave the go ahead. Its all on him, not on Mary Jane.


Fanfiction my ass.

Let me break downt he A>B>C logic for you since you apparently don’t understand.


Mephisto is an evil demon who benefits from weakinging the forces of good, empowering the forces of evil and specifically benefits from causing pain and misery to the world. Mephisto wants to screw over Peter, MJ and God himself by removing their marriage, tainting their relationship and placing their souls into eternal torment. We know this because he STATES this directly to them and has no reason to lie about it.

To do this he needs to make a deal with Peter and MJ to save Aunt May’s life.

They make that deal.

Mephisto gets everything he was after and more than this in OMIT according to the editorial staff it’s at least implied that had Mephisto not distracted Peter he would’ve been at the hospital with Aunt May and been able to save her himself, thus the deal was never really necessary for Peter in the first place. But the changes Mephisto affected into the timeline not only stopped Peter marrying MJ but also allowed the thug who knocked out Peter to be a free man and thus target Aunt Anna and Mary Jane which then led to the end of Peter and MJ’s relationship.

This is EXPLICIT in the fucking story. This isn’t me making it up.

Mephisto had a set of goals. He got those goals achieved. The status quo affected by his achievement of those goals, which is an ongoing victory (since Peter and MJ are stil unmarried, not together and still made the deal, thus their souls are still being tormented), are still in affect.

Thus Mephisto is experiencing an ONGOING victory over Peter and MJ.

So no, I’m not going to give you a break any more than if I said Doc Ock was experiencing an ongoing victory over Spider-Man during Superior and you told me to give you a break.

I won’t give you a break because everything I said is objectively true.

You are right of course. Mephisto wasn’t the ONLY person who could’ve affected the changes to Spider-Man’s history.

But here is the question, what the fuck does that matter?

IN-UNIVERSE it was Mephisto.

Claiming the fact that it could’ve been someone else is as irrelevant as saying the Hobogblin could’ve been unmasked as someone other than Ned Leeds or Roderick Kingsley. So effing what, the fact is that they weren’t.

And again the corniness fo the dialogue is IRRELEVENT to the actual sentiments and raw information he dialogue is being used to convey.


Spider-Man’s stories aren’t ABOUT tragedy though.

Spider-Man is about being the everyman and about responsibility. It’s about life which has a mixture of ups and downs.

OMD isn’t merely a tragedy, it’s an ongoing loss which EVISCERATES the characters.

Are you under some delusion that Peter and MJ’s actions somehow WEREN’T
a) utterly immoral and idiotic
b) In any way shape or form in character?

Because I assure you in regards to the latter they were not. So yes actually MJ making that deal for Aunt May IS nuclear levels of contrived for multiple reasons, the biggest one being that agreeing to the deal makes Peter suffer!

The fact that it’s editorially driven doesn’t matter to evaluating a story or their place within the mythology.

If it wasn’t for multiple editorial mandates one of the most beloved arcs of Dragon Ball Z with one of the best villains in the franchise would never have existed.

Editorial mandates are merely a tool nothing more. In the case of ASM annual #21 the mandate came down and despite itsreasons was additive to the universe and made sense to the characters.

OMD is the exact opposite.

But they are still stories and have to be evaluated as such.

[Spidercide]

actually, Stan Lee said multiple times that if he knew Spidey would have lasted this long it would have never moved him to college.

I do not recall him ever saying this. Plus even if he did he's saying that in hindsight, so who knows if he really would've done that.

More poignantly though when he did the newspaper strips he did have him in college and allowed him to age out of that going into marriage, a status quo even in the 1990s and 2000s he was supportive of.

Stan clearly wanted the characters go grow not stay stuck in one status quo. in fact his whole approach to the early marvel pantheon proives this

Generally speaking, people don't ask for the plug to be pulled if they're comatose. They ask for it if their quality of life will be so poor that the effort to save them won't be worth it. If they can recover from a coma and function normally afterwards, they usually aren't going to insist that the doctor let them die.

Only because people tend to not dwell on such subjects. In an excellent episode of Adam Ruins Everything he pointed out how most people do not make preparations for eventualities like that and most of their family members have no idea what they would've wanted.

It isn't a case of 100% most people do not WANT the plug pulled it they are a vegetable. It's a case of most people don't ask for that because they don't consider or like to think about being in that situation period. It's the same reason hardly anyone makes a last will and testement until their golden years.

As for the latter statements you made that lines up entirely with what Aunt May directly told Peter. She not only was fine with dying and wanted to die in general, but she honestly didn't even think she'd be able to have much of a productive life even if she did wake up from her coma due to her injuries. Which realistically she wouldn't have, it was BS writing that she made a full recovery.

[Mister Mets]

I do not recall him ever saying this. Plus even if he did he's saying that in hindsight, so who knows if he really would've done that.

More poignantly though when he did the newspaper strips he did have him in college and allowed him to age out of that going into marriage, a status quo even in the 1990s and 2000s he was supportive of.

Stan clearly wanted the characters go grow not stay stuck in one status quo. in fact his whole approach to the early marvel pantheon proives this



Only because people tend to not dwell on such subjects. In an excellent episode of Adam Ruins Everything he pointed out how most people do not make preparations for eventualities like that and most of their family members have no idea what they would've wanted.

It isn't a case of 100% most people do not WANT the plug pulled it they are a vegetable. It's a case of most people don't ask for that because they don't consider or like to think about being in that situation period. It's the same reason hardly anyone makes a last will and testement until their golden years.

As for the latter statements you made that lines up entirely with what Aunt May directly told Peter. She not only was fine with dying and wanted to die in general, but she honestly didn't even think she'd be able to have much of a productive life even if she did wake up from her coma due to her injuries. Which realistically she wouldn't have, it was BS writing that she made a full recovery.

The situation of eventualities generally applies to cases where someone's quality of life is terrible should they recover, not where a full recovery is a plausible scenario.

The closest analogue to One More Day is someone in danger telling a hero "Don't worry about me. Save yourself!" That's often advice the hero doesn't take, even if there's a legitimate argument for it.

[Spidercide]

The situation of eventualities generally applies to cases where someone's quality of life is terrible should they recover, not where a full recovery is a plausible scenario.

The closest analogue to One More Day is someone in danger telling a hero "Don't worry about me. Save yourself!" That's often advice the hero doesn't take, even if there's a legitimate argument for it.

Not necessarily true. Accidents happen and many, though not enough, people make provisions for the future. Really that’s the sensible thing to do.


Your analogue is not true to the inherent nature of the situation at all.

My Mum has tol me straight up that if she was ever going to be a vegetable and/or it looked bad, let her go.

Aunt May did exactly the same thing except she did it whilst she was already in that bad situation.

This is not even getting into how just utterly immoral it was for Peter to hurt MJ to save Aunt May and how he knew she didn’t want him to do that.