Superman #19 (spoilers)

[David Walton]

I like Mxy's depiction, and I think as frightening as it might be, the more charming Silver Age elements haven't been compromised. Nothing that happened in this issue contradicts what we learned from Mxy in Dini's backup story.

You could also argue that Mxy is so aware that he knows Superman will come out on top, which would only reinforce his conviction that it's all a game. He's just playing his part, whether that be mischievous imp or sympathetic villain.

[DragonPiece]

Well, this is the end for me. Althought New52 Superman being a time-displaced/Red Supes is less disgusting and offensive than him being Prime/Sand/Construct/etc, all of this is still monstruous for me.

When all of this started happening with N52s death last year I thought I was horrified. But still there was some hope that DC would bring him back. With each passing month, new solicits, previews, issues, my revulsion and disgust at what DC was doing grew. Just a few months before Rebirth, Tomasi was saying in interviews for SM/WW fans that "Love is a roller-coaster" and that he liked writing N52 Supes. A few months later and he was doing his best Jurgens/Rucka pathetic meaningless meta-dig impression. The meta BS he wrote against Superman didn't hurt, it's just as hollow and meaningless as Jurgens/Rucka. It's the betrayal that made me sick.

The killings, the brute force retcons, the body snatching aspect. It's all too much. Having Superman be Red/Time displaced doesn't undo the stealing of life for me. It's still repulsive.

I never connected with Byrne's Superman, but I never hated the character. I was disapointed, then disgusted, then revolted at what DC/Warner did to him every time I'd take a look at the comics. Now I hate him. The character is monstruous to me. I look at Jon, especially with Gleason's ultra cute art style and see only a little monster. I can't believe Superdad fans are okay with all of this.

I see that many new52 Superman fans, even many SMWW fans are ok with this. I wish I could be like you folks. It's impossible for me. I invested about $250 in these books. I loved these characters. I connected immediately with 52 Clark and Diana. I quickly fell in love with them. DC treated me like trash.

Good luck and good enjoyement to you all. That's the end of DC comics for me.

Not even going to check out the ending or what the new history will be? I'm not to pick on you personally, I just don't get how you can say you are a Superman fan if you will only read one era of the character.

[Kuwagaton]

Well, I look at it like a dig at Didio/Harras. I have no sympathy for either of those two guys.

Why would Tomasi and Gleason feel this way, as long-time employees?

I can see what bat39 says, though, about it being commentary on rebooting. But not a dig at anyone.

I like Mxy's depiction, and I think as frightening as it might be, the more charming Silver Age elements haven't been compromised. Nothing that happened in this issue contradicts what we learned from Mxy in Dini's backup story.

You could also argue that Mxy is so aware that he knows Superman will come out on top, which would only reinforce his conviction that it's all a game. He's just playing his part, whether that be mischievous imp or sympathetic villain.

As always, I agree with you. The greatest thing about Mxy, and the thing Morrison used for his commentary, is that even though he seems childlike in thinking he contrives his losses for the sake of the game.

[Miles To Go]

Good luck and good enjoyement to you all. That's the end of DC comics for me.

See you next week

[dumbduck]

Not even going to check out the ending or what the new history will be? I'm not to pick on you personally, I just don't get how you can say you are a Superman fan if you will only read one era of the character.

See you next week

@DragonPiece: I never connected with post-crisis Superman. I tried, I swear I tried. 'Lois and Clark', STAS, Smallville. I watched these shows well past the point where I wasn't enjoying anything. I simply don't connect with the character.

Unless they allow N52 Supes to be his own person and somehow convince Rucka to also unmerge 52 Diana from his amalgam, I don't see how anything could change for me.

[GSman]

Against it!? Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I'm all for it!

Alright than we can both agree that this merger resulting in more Pre New 52 Superman history would definitely be a good thing?

[GodofBoredom]

@DragonPiece: I never connected with post-crisis Superman. I tried, I swear I tried. 'Lois and Clark', STAS, Smallville. I watched these shows well past the point where I wasn't enjoying anything. I simply don't connect with the character.

Unless they allow N52 Supes to be his own person and somehow convince Rucka to also unmerge 52 Diana from his amalgam, I don't see how anything could change for me.

I was exactly in your camp, and swore off the Superman titles until they brought back New 52 Superman.

Once I heard rumors that he would be brought back in one shape or the other, I started reading back again, with Superman Reborn.

Now, event though I would have been happier with just New 52 Superman, having him be acknowledged as the true Superman, and integrating him in the Superman line's 30 years of continuity, is enough to fully support Dan and Peter.

I get your worry, that this may be just a bone thrown to us by DC, and they'll continue writing Superdad as if nothing happened - but don't bet on it. BOTH Supermen are now the same person, so expect shades of how he was portrayed in New 52 aswell as Pre-Flashpoint to be present.

[spirit2011]

See you next week

sometimes I'm suprised that amlost one year later the rebirth started, people always come back

[RedWhiteAndBlueSupes]

I like Mxy's depiction, and I think as frightening as it might be, the more charming Silver Age elements haven't been compromised. Nothing that happened in this issue contradicts what we learned from Mxy in Dini's backup story.
You could also argue that Mxy is so aware that he knows Superman will come out on top, which would only reinforce his conviction that it's all a game. He's just playing his part, whether that be mischievous imp or sympathetic villain.

True on all points, it's just me nitpicking. Really Post Crisis Mxy does some things I suppose could be called "villainous" as well.

Alright than we can both agree that this merger resulting in more Pre New 52 Superman history would definitely be a good thing?

yes, I think we can agree on it. I'm a big pre-52 fan myself. This story seems to have found a way to keep the pre flashpoint Superman history while still keeping New 52 supes and his time as Superman separate from each other. My only point of contention with some on here is that I think the split will remain in continuity, allowing Diana to remember her time with 52 Supes etc.

[Maxi]

DC treated me like trash.

With all due respect: Welcome to the club, buddy.

[Chris24601]

But this merger has to result in a physical merge since the Superman family needs to be integrated into the current universe and actually have an history in it and not be outsiders, and them merging with New 52 Clark and Lois is the best way to do it in my eyes. so I think it will result in them being always apart of the current world and retcon the Convergence stuff, and don't always take covers so literally that's rule number 1 he might have that costume on the cover but have his Reborn costume in the book itself.

Does it though?

FakeClark is gone so there's Clark-shaped hole in the Daily Planet staff, MaLois is already living NuLois' life. Presuming that Superman and Lois absorbing the red energy is them reintegrating a split-off part of their own essences then those lives DO belong to them because they ARE them... which also means that their relationships with, say, Lana and Supergirl also belong to them (Lana's dreamtalk with the red energy aspects of Lois and Clark indicates she shouldn't view them as outsiders anymore for example). Leaving aside the need to explain their son, Lois and Clark could easily just step into their New52 shoes with a clear conscience and leave the timeline fixes to the later Rebirth stuff that comes down the pike.

My hunch is that the Red/Blue integration that just happened has already 'fixed' Lois and Clark (i.e. Mxy won't be able to alter them like he was in the process of doing just before the red energy merged with them, they're now "Ultimate Superman and Lois") and that if there are any timeline alterations at this stage its going to be all Mxy's doing because it will make Lois and Clark's lives 'more interesting' (such as the the return of a bunch of classic Superman villains which is very similar to the stunt he pulled after Emperor Joker with Bizarro #1, Gorgeous Gilly, Ignition and such getting a ticket from Emperor Joker's world to the real one).

[Miles To Go]

My only point of contention with some on here is that I think the split will remain in continuity, allowing Diana to remember her time with 52 Supes etc.

We'll see, but it's not like Diana thought much of her time with NewSupes anyway, and there's the Trinity retcon

[theonetruebatman]

I called it way back before Rebirth came about last year here. I post a lot of theories and speculation that are pretty detailed but sometimes nuts. It feels good when one of them finally comes out right. It's been just over a year since I posted the below thread.

http://community.comicbookresources....81#post2674381

Now we are cooking with gas on this storyline folks!!! What a snackycake storyline this has turned out to be. This move is absolutely inspired and I kind of wish we would have gotten this issue before Superwoman because it came off kind of clunky in that book without the main book's perspective.

While the revelation that Superman has literally been divided in half is definitely inspired and awesome I was ultimately right all the way back when in the fact that the two Supermen will most likely merge their memories and maybe even bodies together. Feels good when one of my many theories comes to fruition.

Now, is Oz Superboy Prime? I sense that we are going find out just who this man is next week in the conclusion. :-D This storyline is THICK AND DAMP. Just like Grandma used to make em.

[dumbduck]

With all due respect: Welcome to the club, buddy.

I assume you are a post-crisis fan, comparing what happened to post-crisis Lois and Clark after flashpoint to what happened to Clark and Diana post Rebirth.

It's not really comparable. I didn't know the nature of the rebooth when I started reading the new52 books. I assumed it was a clean rebooth. I wrote a few times that I thought that preFP Lois and Clark were still out there for fans of that pairing.

Even after I learned that it was a timeline tampering rebooth, I also learned that Lois and Clark had a happy and respectful sendoff.

Compare this to what DC did to Diana and Clark, giving them to Rucka and Jurgens. It's really not on the same scale. Also, Post-crisis Lois and Clark had 25 years of history with many different media representations.

We'll see, but it's not like Diana thought much of her time with NewSupes anyway, and there's the Trinity retcon

Case in point. Miles To Go here, says that we should grow up and enjoy the 5 years of Clark and Diana we had. Then he gloats, in the SMWW appreciation thread, that Rucka is destroying any meaning that these 5 years could have. DC exposed us to these kind of people. That's the difference, Maxi.

[Maxi]

It's not really comparable.

It really is. If DC did this once with their fans, what did it make you think they wouldn't do it again? Why would you think your version was "special"? This is the nature of what DC does with their fans.

And honestly this is the most conciliatory solution possible to this mess. At least The New 52 version is being acknowledged and integrated into continuity as always having being the real Superman instead of being rebooted and erased from existence like the previous versions initially were.