How To Give Firestorm A Rebirth?

[Dataweaver]

Forget the New 52 Firestorm series ever happened. I would rather pick up on that whole dynamic Ronnie and Jason had during Brightest Day. To me, it was more interesting than what came out of the New 52 series.

I know that's your go-to answer for all things New 52; but that's not what Rebirth is doing. Not even Superman and Wonder Woman have ignored the New 52; why would Firestorm?

I do like the notion of bringing things more in line with what Brightest Day had set up for Firestorm; but you don't have to ditch the post-Flashpoint stuff to get there. Start where LoT left off, then play up the idea that the Firestorm matrix is damaged, and that Jason needs to be brought back in to fix it. Or else the universe goes boom.

Start out with Ronnie and Martin starting to have instability issues, then someone realizing that the earlier instability issues weren't about Jason per se, but rather that the matrix is quark-like: it takes a balance of three to achieve true stability. Replacing Jason with Martin bought some time by resetting the clock; but it was only a temporary fix. To make it permanent, they need to bring Jason back in. Now, how to do it? And so it begins…

I'd angle this toward a final status quo where all three share the Firestorm matrix, but usually two at a time (all three together produce the Fury, which is powerful but hard to maintain; they rarely bother). As well, any one of the three can be in the driver's seat: when Ronnie is “driving”, you get classic Firestorm; when Jason is “driving”, you get 2000s Firestorm; and when Martin is “driving”, you get 90s Firestorm.

[Dataweaver]

As for Loraine: LoT#1 said that everyone else involved with the Firestorm matrix was dead, and mused that Ronnie and Jason probably survived because they were paired up. OK; I didn't follow the N52 Firestorm series (I had dropped out of comics when N52 started, and only came back for Multiversity). Was Firehawk identified as Loraine? If so, the above assertion implies that she's dead, which would be a problem. If not, the Firestorm Rebirth storyline could include granting her the Firehawk powers. The Firehawk matrix should be related to, but distinct from, the Firestorm matrix; possibly draw a parallel between quarks (the Firestorm matrix with its three-person balance) and leptons (the Firehawk matrix which only needs and allows one person).

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I know that's your go-to answer for all things New 52; but that's not what Rebirth is doing. Not even Superman and Wonder Woman have ignored the New 52; why would Firestorm?

And I know you don't like it whenever I do say it, but that's what I want to see. I want to see Ronnie get his old origin back, where he bonds with Stein not Jason for the first time. And them to actually restore what was probably one of the more unique characters in the DCU. And I know people might disagree, but I do want to revisit the fact that Ronnie, as a Black Lantern, killed Gehenna. It all kinda got swept under the rug after Deathstorm showed up.

And actually what we have seen of Rebirth, especially now, is that they don't have qualms throwing out New 52 stuff. Even before Reborn (though we still have to see how that shakes out, I guess), we had series like Deathstroke basically putting characters' Pre-Flashpoint history back even in the face of directly contradictory New 52 continuity. And since Blackest Night is already still in continuity, I see no problem simply working Firestorm's part in that event back into canon, especially since a bunch of other characters literally started out the New 52 addressing threads carried over from Blackest Night/Brightest Day (Swamp Thing, Deadman/Dove, etc.). So, I don't see the big deal of restoring at least some of Firestorm's Pre-Flashpoint history as well.

Not saying I'll get it. I'm just saying that's what I want to see.

[Blanks]

52 Firestorm became a blotched mess at the Issue 0 reset when they 'reset' the status up to Nuclear Man and not Men. They should have kept Jason and Ronnie separate, that worked (even if the Fury concept was a Lil out there).

If they wanted them to have that classic partner dynamic, pair Jason with his old best friend and classmate that wasn't introduced in the 52 yet (can't remember his name, but he was an Asian guy that got dissolved in the Matrix in the original universe) or bring in Gehenna. Throw Ronnie back with the Professor.

All I know is, from the way this franchise treated Jason, they will never get any more of my money ever again until they do this character justice. And it's been like an intentional character assassination since Blackest Night.

[Ascended]

As for Loraine: LoT#1 said that everyone else involved with the Firestorm matrix was dead, and mused that Ronnie and Jason probably survived because they were paired up. OK; I didn't follow the N52 Firestorm series (I had dropped out of comics when N52 started, and only came back for Multiversity). Was Firehawk identified as Loraine? If so, the above assertion implies that she's dead, which would be a problem. If not, the Firestorm Rebirth storyline could include granting her the Firehawk powers. The Firehawk matrix should be related to, but distinct from, the Firestorm matrix; possibly draw a parallel between quarks (the Firestorm matrix with its three-person balance) and leptons (the Firehawk matrix which only needs and allows one person).

I'm not sure about Lorraine since I didnt read the New52 series past the first issue or two, but even if she is supposed to be dead, that's easy enough to get around. Perhaps she wasn't dead but just stuck in the Matrix, or perhaps the Matrix reconstitutes her body (which opens up some interesting plots about whether she's "real" or not) or maybe she never actually died and it was just assumed (did we ever see her body?)

[Ascended]

So I was considering Firestorm's rogues gallery. He's got some really good villains in there and several who have a lot of potential and just need a bit of polish. But Im thinking, if you were to push 'Storm in a big way, he needs a villain with a little bit more pedigree; someone he can borrow from another franchise and use for a bit until his presumed solo gets traction.

But who?

It seems to me Atomic Skull would make an obvious choice, he's a name a lot of comic fans recognize but he's not so firmly set in Superman's sphere that he couldn't venture beyond Metropolis and cause 'Storm some trouble. But Im sure there are more inspired choices out there for a villain Firestorm could use for a bit.

And the fictional city someone mentioned....Im curious what that would look like.

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

Conway's an old-school writer, who also happened to create Firestorm. People are actually surprised that he dealt with the multiple potential components of the Firestorm matrix by re-establishing the original pairing, that was the pairing he created, as the only pairing that could make up Firestorm, and made the newer (not created by him) potential part of Firestorm no longer possible to happen?

People, c'mon. He's from the generation that, whenever an alternate or substitute for a hero's secret identity was introduced, always ended up putting the original back in the role, and either gave the new character a new identity or just killed them off. Of course Conway was going to do this. Just be grateful he wasn't given Vibe to 'rebirth' back into a streetwise break-dancer!

[Dataweaver]

Not surprised. Just disappointed.

[J. D. Guy]

Not surprised. Just disappointed.

Even though I originally wasn't aware that the writer of LoT's Firestorm story was Firestorm's original creator, this is basically how I feel about the matter.

And in truth, I can't say I feel that that works as a justifiable reason for it being done, nor for it being done in the way that it was in that story. In the least, I certainly cannot say that it sits right with me.

[Dataweaver]

More importantly, this thread is mainly about “what would you do about it?” In the context of Rebirth, of course.

[Starchild]

I like Jason, but let's be franc here - return to basics is better, and Ronnie/Stein is the basics.
The CW totally botched Ronnie, Robbie Ammel went to do that one movie about earthquakes, and we got Jefferson Jackson (who now I just realized is the CW version of THAT Jefferson from the old Conway comics!) - who is Ronnie in all but name + being a mechanic.

At this point I find far ore probable that if there's a black Firestorm, its going to be Jefferson.


I like the idea of giving Jason his own heroic identity. If Firehawk is his Supergirl, then Jason is his Steel?
Maybe his stint as Firestorm activated Jason's own metagene, and gave him his own set of powers.

My suggestion is to take a page out of Jason's run and give him the thing that made him different: Organic Transmutation.
Jason's power is that he can transmute organics, while Ronnie sticks with inorganics. His own limit is that he can't create life. Like Ronnie, Jason can shape his own atomic structure, but Jason should use it far more and better.

So you have, thematically speaking:
Ronnie/Stein: Inorganic Matter/Energy transmutation.
Lorraine: Fire, flight, speed.
Jason: Organics.

Bonus: Jason is a pretty smart kid. Give him a area of expertise - I would suggest Biochemistry and/or Biology. Organic transmutation would also mean Jason could be one hell of a healer, making medicine and even patching up others' bodies through transmutation. He could change others as a weapon (two words: Turning others into salt. Ok, maybe that's not what Jason would do), or augment himself - make himself stronger, faster, tougher, the works.



Your post does not make sense. You want to get back to the Ronnie and Stein basics, and I agree with that.
Then you want Ronnie to be like on The Flash... which means: Not like Ronnie. At all.

The core of Ronnie as a character, is:
1. Ronnie is Reverse Peter Parker AKA DCU Flash Thompson. Peter was a endearing, quirky nerd bullied by a jock. Ronnie is a endearing, popular jock who was bullied by a nerd.
2. Ronnie is NOT a book-smart person, he's a physically aware person - he's quick on his wits, has a good physical condition, pragmatic, etc, in opposition to absent-minded Professor Stein. He's the body to Stein's head. Which is why he is the one doing the physical action, while Stein is
3. Ronnie is no genius, but he underestimates his own intelligence.

The problem is that Ronnie was never a "dumb jock", that's a modern mis-characterization.

It made a lot of sense, not my fault if you didn't catch it. I was naming things that felt would be a good modernization. Try again next time.

I've been reading Firestorm comics for a while now. I don't need you listing core elements to me.

[J. D. Guy]

More importantly, this thread is mainly about “what would you do about it?” In the context of Rebirth, of course.

That, too, yeah.

[Ascended]

So a while back I downloaded the LoT Firestorm trade. It glitched on me, but (weeks later) I finally got around to fixing the problem and reading the book. Thought I'd pull this thread out of mothballs and see if anyone had anything else to contribute.

I think the LoT tale misses the mark for a "proper" Rebirth.

As a soft-reboot, it accomplishes its goals (in that it did quietly re-start the character). But I dont think it can quite qualify as a Rebirth for a few reasons.

First, a Rebirth puts a classic character back in the main role (which this story did) and it puts the successor in a supporting role (which this story did) but a Rebirth lets the successor retain their heroic identity. This story failed to do that.

In fact, I found the treatment Jason got to be pretty sad. Jason gets kicked out of Firestorm and there's no effort put into it at all. It's just Jason suddenly becoming a liability, Stein not knowing why but throwing himself into the same situation quickly enough, it works for him with no decent explanation given, we get a throwaway line about the shift being permanent....from the same guy who doesnt know what is happening in the first place...and Ronnie basically just rolls with it. If I were a Jason fan I'd find it insulting as f**k.

Secondly, a Rebirth tends to expand on a critical aspect of the mythos, turning it into an important part of DC cosmology. This story failed to do that. GL gave us the introduction of the fear entity. Flash gave us Barry's ties to the speed force and the negative speed force (and thank god neither have been mentioned since!!). Firestorm gave us nothing new to chew on, no new wrinkles in the Firestorm Matrix (other than it not liking the new kid), no new role of importance for any of the major characters. Hell, Stein has his own lab, called Stein Labs. If that's not a great way to say "This character doesn't matter to the wider universe" Im not sure what does.

As a story I was also disappointed. Ronnie is a two-dimensional jock with a heart of gold. This sort of characterization is exactly why I suggested he steal the "bum leg and a limp" conceit from the CW's Jax; so that writers couldn't just lean on the athlete stereotype. I found Jason likewise bland; he's just the nerd. And we don't even really get to see him as a "fun" nerd playing video games with his friends or something. And I dont know if the....softening.....of his father is on Conway or the New52 (hell it could've started in Brightest Day and I likely wouldnt remember), but I also disliked how Jason's father has changed from an abusive man to a loving father with a tiny bit of "tough love" in him. Dont get me wrong, child abuse is a serious thing and as a parent it makes my stomach churn, but it also made Jason more interesting and sympathetic and removing that challenge, that adversary, from Jason's supporting cast weakens his character. Jason's father was basically his Lex Luthor; the villain who gets under your skin the most, who you can never quite defeat.

And while not really a part of the typical Rebirth MO, this story also didn't do anything to make Firestorm more appealing to new audiences. Nothing new was introduced or adjusted to make this feel contemporary. It could have been written in 1980 but for the occasional cell phone.

After this, Im wondering if the character doesnt actually require a full on reboot.

[Dataweaver]

No, I don't think he does. All of the problems you describe can be addressed by a Rebirth issue that takes the final status quo of LoT as its starting point:

First, a Rebirth puts a classic character back in the main role (which this story did) and it puts the successor in a supporting role (which this story did) but a Rebirth lets the successor retain their heroic identity. This story failed to do that.

Nitpick: Rebirth doesn't necessarily put a classic character back in the main role: Ryan Choi is still effectively taking over for Ray Palmer as the Atom, for instance.

In fact, I found the treatment Jason got to be pretty sad. Jason gets kicked out of Firestorm and there's no effort put into it at all. It's just Jason suddenly becoming a liability, Stein not knowing why but throwing himself into the same situation quickly enough, it works for him with no decent explanation given, we get a throwaway line about the shift being permanent....from the same guy who doesnt know what is happening in the first place...and Ronnie basically just rolls with it. If I were a Jason fan I'd find it insulting as f**k.

Agreed. And the way to fix this is to reveal that Stein got it wrong: pulling Jason out of the Firestorm matrix didn't fix the problem; it only bought some time. Have Stein start developing migraines the way Jason had been getting them as a first indication that the Firestorm matrix is still in trouble.

Secondly, a Rebirth tends to expand on a critical aspect of the mythos, turning it into an important part of DC cosmology. This story failed to do that. GL gave us the introduction of the fear entity. Flash gave us Barry's ties to the speed force and the negative speed force (and thank god neither have been mentioned since!!). Firestorm gave us nothing new to chew on, no new wrinkles in the Firestorm Matrix (other than it not liking the new kid), no new role of importance for any of the major characters. Hell, Stein has his own lab, called Stein Labs. If that's not a great way to say "This character doesn't matter to the wider universe" Im not sure what does.

Tap into the Standard Model of particle physics, namely Quantum Chromodynamics: specifically, reveal that the Firestorm matrix is like nucleons (protons and neutrons) in that it requires three components to function properly, just as nucleons are each composed of three quarks. The Robbie/Jason combination was deteriorating not because it was rejecting Jason, but because there was no third member of the matrix; the Robbie/Martin combination is starting to deteriorate for the same reason. The solution is obvious: find a way to bring Robbie back into the matrix.

The focus on particle physics can be extended to our purposes. The Firehawk matrix is to leptons (e.g., electrons, muons, tauons, and neutrinos) as the Firestorm matrix is to quarks. Leptons don't have the “color confinement” property, which is why Firehawk is a singular individual rather than a gestalt entity. Other aspects of the Standard Model can be used as inspirations for the rogue's gallery.

As a story I was also disappointed. Ronnie is a two-dimensional jock with a heart of gold. This sort of characterization is exactly why I suggested he steal the "bum leg and a limp" conceit from the CW's Jax; so that writers couldn't just lean on the athlete stereotype. I found Jason likewise bland; he's just the nerd. And we don't even really get to see him as a "fun" nerd playing video games with his friends or something. And I dont know if the....softening.....of his father is on Conway or the New52 (hell it could've started in Brightest Day and I likely wouldnt remember), but I also disliked how Jason's father has changed from an abusive man to a loving father with a tiny bit of "tough love" in him. Dont get me wrong, child abuse is a serious thing and as a parent it makes my stomach churn, but it also made Jason more interesting and sympathetic and removing that challenge, that adversary, from Jason's supporting cast weakens his character. Jason's father was basically his Lex Luthor; the villain who gets under your skin the most, who you can never quite defeat.

Fair enough. It's easy enough to say that he was in a generous more during LoT, and have his more abusive proclivities slowly resurface.

[plasticman101]

Was it good enough to serve as a Rebirth?

I didnt read it (not for that cover price). I only heard about a couple things; basically Jason is tech support now or something, and Firestorm is back to Ronnie and Stein. Other than that I dont know what went down.

it went exactly like you said!...it happened in the legends of Tomorrow 6 part mini-series written by Gerry Conway!(the original writer) consider ALL those stories as REBIRTH CANNON. suger & spike are already appearing in blue beetle!. so no need for a rebirth. will someone write more about firestorm its unknown at this time, but I think after the dust settles we'll see a return from these pages !