Iron Fist Episodes 7-13

[JKtheMac]

Again, with all due respect to the critics and naysayers, I like this series. Yeah, it could be better, but there's a lot of good storytelling to make me stick around. Can't wait for the next episodes!

The critics and naysayers are a tiny voice amongst the people that will end up watching this show at a slower pace. For them the only thing that will keep them progressing through the series is a well told story and identifiable characters. Going back and reading the negative reviews I read before the series dropped is a laughable exercise. Many completely missed the point of what the show was and who Danny was being portrayed as.

Sometimes I feel that received wisdom wins out in the analysis of such things. It is received wisdom that Marvel have pacing issues over their assigned number of episodes; that the model is daredevil, and that all of these shows should somehow be compared to it; that a good superhero story has to be an origin tale; that exposition is always worse than a flashback; that viewers will struggle to understand the stories if they are not spoon fed; that every fight scene has to be a perfectly choreographed dance; the list goes on and on. It is a critic's job to assess and review what they see before them, not to compare it to some idealised version in their head with often much more simplistic aims. I guess we get the critics we deserve by regurgitating and not questioning the nonsense they often espouse.

Sorry about the rant.

[JediKage]

I am not sure what the problem is with comparing against Daredevil. Its a shared universe makes sense you would compare to other shows in that universe.

[Riotzact]

The critics and naysayers are a tiny voice amongst the people that will end up watching this show at a slower pace. For them the only thing that will keep them progressing through the series is a well told story and identifiable characters. Going back and reading the negative reviews I read before the series dropped is a laughable exercise. Many completely missed the point of what the show was and who Danny was being portrayed as.

I can't say I agree with this. Some of the critics are way too harsh for sure but Danny's portrayal is pretty far off in my opinion. I've read all of the original 70s Iron Fist stories, every single issue of Powerman and Iron Fist, the intire Immortal Iron Fist series and several other random team ups and such, and I have no earthly idea where they are getting some of these personality traits from. Yeah he's filled with rage when he gets home, but it goes away when Harold Meachum gets killed by the ninja, after that he becomes one of the most laid back superheroes of all time. I know I've heard that the Living Weapon series has him more filled with rage but I hardly think it would be a good idea to pull so much from a 12 issue series that got mixed reviews rather than one of the most acclaimed series of all time and a couple historic series' from the 70s/80s.

I might give some of the short temper stuff more of a pass if it was sold by Finn and the writers better, but it's painful to watch at times. The dialogue is so bad and Finn didn't do it any favors most of the time.

[Carabas]

I am not sure what the problem is with comparing against Daredevil. Its a shared universe makes sense you would compare to other shows in that universe.

Hard to be sure,but I got the impression that Daredevil and the other MarvelFlix shows got a much bigger budget. Iron Fist looked downright cheap at times.

[JKtheMac]

I am not sure what the problem is with comparing against Daredevil. Its a shared universe makes sense you would compare to other shows in that universe.

It is an entirely different show with different aims, separate story structure, and different themes. These necessarily require different approaches to the series. Not all comparisons are bogus, but the most common ones make little sense.

For example comparing fight choreography is unfair. Daredevil uses a mixed style so the training can focus entirely on what the actors and stunt doubles are capable of. The premise of this Iron Fist series is a character that has learnt a pure style with very little influence from outside. This presents a real challenge for the cast and necessitates a very different approach to the editing, shot choices, casting etc.

[JKtheMac]

I can't say I agree with this. Some of the critics are way too harsh for sure but Danny's portrayal is pretty far off in my opinion. I've read all of the original 70s Iron Fist stories, every single issue of Powerman and Iron Fist, the intire Immortal Iron Fist series and several other random team ups and such, and I have no earthly idea where they are getting some of these personality traits from. Yeah he's filled with rage when he gets home, but it goes away when Harold Meachum gets killed by the ninja, after that he becomes one of the most laid back superheroes of all time. I know I've heard that the Living Weapon series has him more filled with rage but I hardly think it would be a good idea to pull so much from a 12 issue series that got mixed reviews rather than one of the most acclaimed series of all time and a couple historic series' from the 70s/80s.

I might give some of the short temper stuff more of a pass if it was sold by Finn and the writers better, but it's painful to watch at times. The dialogue is so bad and Finn didn't do it any favors most of the time.

But this isn't the same character, let it go. That's not how these shows work. Especially not this one, which has taken a very specific slant and imo is acted superbly.

[JKtheMac]

Hard to be sure,but I got the impression that Daredevil and the other MarvelFlix shows got a much bigger budget. Iron Fist looked downright cheap at times.

Actually if you watch the rest of the shows looking for how much money was spent you will see similar concerns. I was a little disappointed by the look of later Luke Cage episodes for exactly the same reasons, but this isn't necessarily budgetary. The director has most say over the overall look, in conjunction with the cinematographer and the production design team. These shows are not movies, they have to make compromises. If you know where to look you will see them everywhere. For example redressing old sets was quite prevalent in this show.

Imagine how this would have looked with more flashback scenes!

[Riotzact]

But this isn't the same character, let it go. That's not how these shows work.

I get that, trust me I'm not one of these fanboys that wants them to copy and paste the comics to the TV screen, but like I said I probably would have looked the other way and enjoyed it if they would have done even a half way decent job of selling it.

If you're going to abandon a characters comic history, you better do a good job at what you're replacing it with. Think about RDJ as Tony Stark, some fanboys are still mad that he's so different than he was in the comics, but overall fans and critics alike love the character because RDJ and the writers of the various marvel movies have sold us the whole "arrogant playboy" attitude, Finn and the writers of this show have not done a good job at selling the "frustrated lost boy torn between two cultures" at all.

Some of the stuff they sold me on, Danny is a pretty shitty Iron Fist? Cool, I get it, he didn't finish his training etc. No problem with that change from the comics at all. Sworn enemy of The Hand? Fine by me, it makes sense in tying the shows all together, I'm sold on the idea. But Danny's personality and motives? Nope, it all comes off very awkward and forced, takes me right out of the show.

[GhostPirate]

I can't say I agree with this. Some of the critics are way too harsh for sure but Danny's portrayal is pretty far off in my opinion. I've read all of the original 70s Iron Fist stories, every single issue of Powerman and Iron Fist, the intire Immortal Iron Fist series and several other random team ups and such, and I have no earthly idea where they are getting some of these personality traits from. Yeah he's filled with rage when he gets home, but it goes away when Harold Meachum gets killed by the ninja, after that he becomes one of the most laid back superheroes of all time. I know I've heard that the Living Weapon series has him more filled with rage but I hardly think it would be a good idea to pull so much from a 12 issue series that got mixed reviews rather than one of the most acclaimed series of all time and a couple historic series' from the 70s/80s.

I might give some of the short temper stuff more of a pass if it was sold by Finn and the writers better, but it's painful to watch at times. The dialogue is so bad and Finn didn't do it any favors most of the time.

Thanks, I completely agree.

I mean, the "rage issues" don't even really make as much sense in the series as they have historically in the comics, but are played to a greater extreme than I've ever seen. spoilers:

In the comics he sees Harold literally kill his father, here he becomes some little shaking rage monster out of survivors' guilt? Gah. And they add in as that is what blocks his Chi? I thought that was awful, from a writing, directing AND acting standpoint

end of spoilers

In actuality, I liked a lot of aspects of this series, but felt the albatross was the writing and portrayal of Danny himself.

[Riotzact]

Thanks, I completely agree.

I mean, the "rage issues" don't even really make as much sense in the series as they have historically in the comics, but are played to a greater extreme than I've ever seen. spoilers:

In the comics he sees Harold literally kill his father, here he becomes some little shaking rage monster out of survivors' guilt? Gah. And they add in as that is what blocks his Chi? I thought that was awful, from a writing, directing AND acting standpoint

end of spoilers

In actuality, I liked a lot of aspects of this series, but felt the albatross was the writing and portrayal of Danny himself.

Yeah, I'm still holding out a lot of hope for Finn though. The guys from DD are doing The Defenders and I can't imagine that they would use the same creative team if Iron Fist gets the green light for a season 2. I'm really hoping that some better writing can inspire him to put out a better performance, he really does seem to care for the character based on his interviews and such.

[JKtheMac]

The rage issues are entirely consistent with a person going through PTSD exacerbated by years of abuse. The underlying suggestion is that the training process was by no means some idealistic process as portrayed in many martial arts shows. They even address this in the show, with direct confrontation of so called 'centering' being called out as another word for 'suppressing emotions'.

[Riotzact]

The rage issues are entirely consistent with a person going through PTSD exacerbated by years of abuse. The underlying suggestion is that the training process was by no means some idealistic process as portrayed in many martial arts shows. They even address this in the show, with direct confrontation of so called 'centering' being called out as another word for 'suppressing emotions'.

Again, you're not hearing what I'm saying, I have zero problem with the concept, it's the execution. It doesn't come off as someone Raging out from PTSD, it comes off as someone pretending to rage out from PTSD, I'm very aware that I'm watching actors when Danny rages out. It's almost like Finn prepared to be the classic easy going Danny but then the writers threw a curveball at him with the rage stuff and he didn't practice it enough. I'm sure that's not how it happened but that's what it feels like.

[JKtheMac]

Again, you're not hearing what I'm saying, I have zero problem with the concept, it's the execution. It doesn't come off as someone Raging out from PTSD, it comes off as someone pretending to rage out from PTSD, I'm very aware that I'm watching actors when Danny rages out. It's almost like Finn prepared to be the classic easy going Danny but then the writers threw a curveball at him with the rage stuff and he didn't practice it enough. I'm sure that's not how it happened but that's what it feels like.

Perhaps this is just taste then, because the portrayal I watched was captivating and convincing. Especially as I myself have been through a lesser version of this and recognised the symptoms as realistic and well written.

[Riotzact]

Perhaps this is just taste then, because the portrayal I watched was captivating and convincing. Especially as I myself have been through a lesser version of this and recognised the symptoms as realistic and well written.

Fair enough

[Ronin705]

DD s2
DD s1
Luke Cage
Iron Fist
Jessica Jones

my updated ranking system. A solid outing by Marvel Netflix, but left ALOT on the table in terms of expectations. Two of the immortal weapons were completely wasted (Bride, Davos), and was the karoke scene supposed to introduce Zhou Cheng?? If so, another waster opportunity. Ah well, next season seems to be pointing to a full out mystical adventure, so im still in.