How do you rate wolverine enemy of state II compared with original arc

[jlgarsh]

Yea gotta agree that that would be a retcon I wouldn't be opposed to as them revealing that would give us further details as to both how Sarah was able to create a viable embryo and why it is that, in spite of Laura only having Logan's DNA, she got his powers but looks like Sarah. Besides, wouldn't be the first time something of a character's history was change not involving the creator. Just look at the Silk and spider totem retcons when it come to Spider-Man.

This makes sense to me too. Laura in the film had Mexican mom and looked Latina, which made sense.

[DDM]

They're barely even comparable. EOTS/AOS was a legitimate epic, EOTS2 feels like a footnote by comparison.

[Beaubier]

Daughter fits better than sister, considering that Laura's gender gene comes from Sarah Kinney, meaning that her genes are only partially Logan's in the same way a child shares their parents' genetics. Someone must've pointed it out, so it was changed. Whereas Gabby is a full clone of Laura (albeit imperfect, hence the missing extra claws), so sister fits there.

The reason why Logan introduced her that way was because he didn't really know HOW to introduce her or how to explain who Laura was to him. That's why he threw out 'sister'. It wasn't a mistake or something he seriously considered. Laura certainly wasn't like a daughter to him in the moment that he said that. He barely knew her really, he just knew who she was and that she needed his help.

Anyway, I never read the original EOTS. However I consider this to be more a direct sequel to Target X. It really did not measure up. Taylor should've spent less time focusing on the pirates and more time focusing on interaction between Kinura and Laura. Also he made it seem WAY too easy for the trigger scent to be solved. Jean Grey solved in one issue something that Emma Frost declared might take years to undo. The cop out ending with Bellona makes it feel like what Taylor really did was wipe Laura's slate clean and cure her of all her demons. It really does feel like he's being overprotective of her and I can't say I appreciate it.

[Ambaryerno]

The reason why Logan introduced her that way was because he didn't really know HOW to introduce her or how to explain who Laura was to him. That's why he threw out 'sister'. It wasn't a mistake or something he seriously considered. Laura certainly wasn't like a daughter to him in the moment that he said that. He barely knew her really, he just knew who she was and that she needed his help.

Anyway, I never read the original EOTS. However I consider this to be more a direct sequel to Target X. It really did not measure up. Taylor should've spent less time focusing on the pirates and more time focusing on interaction between Kinura and Laura. Also he made it seem WAY too easy for the trigger scent to be solved. Jean Grey solved in one issue something that Emma Frost declared might take years to undo. The cop out ending with Bellona makes it feel like what Taylor really did was wipe Laura's slate clean and cure her of all her demons. It really does feel like he's being overprotective of her and I can't say I appreciate it.

To be fair, Emma never had the chance to poke around Laura's mind while she was under the effects of the trigger scent to see what was actually going on in her head, and that was really the linchpin in undoing the conditioning (you need to know what's actually broken before you can fix it). At the time they didn't have access to any to even try it, and I'm sure that even if they did it would have been considered too dangerous, as Laura herself tried to argue in ANW. Especially because it would have meant doing it at either the Xavier School or on Utopia.

[Sin Nick]

Well in the original story, Wolverine had the entire super hero community on red alert and title fit the story whereas Laura's story was something more personal and didn't really need to have the "Enemy of the State" title attached. I understand they're still trying to drive the point home that she's "Wolverine" now, but I thought it was unnecessary.

[Ambaryerno]

Well in the original story, Wolverine had the entire super hero community on red alert and title fit the story whereas Laura's story was something more personal and didn't really need to have the "Enemy of the State" title attached. I understand they're still trying to drive the point home that she's "Wolverine" now, but I thought it was unnecessary.

I honestly think the title worked to the series' detriment, because it's inviting direct comparisons to the previous story. That's going to color the perceptions of both readers and critics, whether willfully or subconsciously, and they may not fairly judge the story on its own merits.

While it was still lackluster, it probably would have reviewed marginally better with critics had it used a different title.

[DDM]

Well in the original story, Wolverine had the entire super hero community on red alert and title fit the story whereas Laura's story was something more personal and didn't really need to have the "Enemy of the State" title attached. I understand they're still trying to drive the point home that she's "Wolverine" now, but I thought it was unnecessary.

It totally backfired though. Diet EOTS for Diet Wolverine.

[Sin Nick]

I honestly think the title worked to the series' detriment, because it's inviting direct comparisons to the previous story. That's going to color the perceptions of both readers and critics, whether willfully or subconsciously, and they may not fairly judge the story on its own merits.

While it was still lackluster, it probably would have reviewed marginally better with critics had it used a different title.

I didn't even care for the original EOTS story because of how Logan was portrayed, but at least Laura was written in character for her story.

It totally backfired though. Diet EOTS for Diet Wolverine.

EOTS wasn't even a Wolverine story IMO. You could've put any character in Logan's spot and it would've had the same effect.

[DDM]

EOTS wasn't even a Wolverine story IMO. You could've put any character in Logan's spot and it would've had the same effect.

I disagree, Logan's interal struggles and personal connections were key and played a huge role in it. The same story with say Captain America or Daredevil or Spider-man or Kitty Pryde whoever would've been completely different and been less meaningful referential with the title character.

In some ways Millar's OML was really a continuation of exploring these ideas for Logan too.

[Sin Nick]

I disagree, Logan's interal struggles and personal connections were key and played a huge role in it. The same story with say Captain America or Daredevil or Spider-man or Kitty Pryde whoever would've been completely different and been less meaningful referential with the title character.

In some ways Millar's OML was really a continuation of exploring these ideas for Logan too.

I know the original EOTS idea was something Claremont wanted to explore way back when, but I didn't like the execution that was used when Millar went about it. Claremont's version was suppose to be a brainwashed Logan against the X-Men and it probably would've felt more personal. I didn't feel that with the story they actually put out. Besides the X-Men stuff towards the end of the story, you definitely could've used any hero besides Logan and gotten the same effect because they would've just been another brainwashed hero raising hell in the MU. I also didn't like Logan's inner monologue... complaining about Daredevil's sex life and his lack of one{which is false considering some consider Logan the ultimate man whore}... lusting after Rachel because she reminded him of Jean... claiming Havok was always afraid of him{Havok, one of the few heroes who have legit victories over the Hulk} and talking down to him like he was just another chump. The way they went about Logan dying was weak also... stabbed with a sword? Really? It also ended weak too... knocked unconscious by Captain America{even though he manage to survive blows from Ben Grimm in the same story}. I just thought the story and execution was lacking, but that's just my opinion.

[JmH Reborn]

I was bored throughout honestly...at no point could you say that in the original. I don't even think you could say that this was a spirtual successor to EotS.

Plus...the downgrade in art

Just seems like a story that was supposed to be greater but just didn't. I'm still waiting for Laura to establish herself in both the X-corner and MU as primal force of nature who at any given moment would wreck anyone that stepped out of line.

I am saddened that she's been sidelined by OML - who for reasons I just can't understand still maintains a positive position in the X-Books. It's like hey - our best friend is dead and magically the decrepit old version of him magically appeared - so cool. His story is better served saving the Wastelands and bringing back the age of heroes over there, not trying to reclaim the magic of 80s/90s Wolverine, the real one.

THey have an opportunity for Laura to really lead the next team of X-youngins but she's just been wasted space in X-Books. This saddens me a great deal

[Gylfie]

I am saddened that she's been sidelined by OML - who for reasons I just can't understand still maintains a positive position in the X-Books. It's like hey - our best friend is dead and magically the decrepit old version of him magically appeared - so cool. His story is better served saving the Wastelands and bringing back the age of heroes over there, not trying to reclaim the magic of 80s/90s Wolverine, the real one.

Honestly, I am glad OML is there! Because his stories are the kind of stories I like! But this is just my humble opinion.

Just finished “The Hunted” by Frank Tieri (Wolverine #162-166,2001) and EofS2 retold this story IMO!
Logan and Laura did not behave different! Both were terrified of having committed murder, both went into hiding to seek answers, both were brought back to their nightmares of the old traumas of weapon x/x23, both cared about innocent people around them, both wanted the people who brought this upon them dead. Laura succeeded, Logan not.
Both stories were very personal to both!
Tieri used the set up to deal with Logan's fears of becoming a murder machine again, because he recently served Apocalypse as Horseman Death and his fears of what he is capable of. And in the end he had to live with it!!!
Taylor used it do get rid of one of Laura's demons and put an end to her time as x23, and I am thinking: Taylor wanted to give her a clean start!
So the impact on both characters is quite different.

So, coming to a conclusion for me and only for me. Having this two so similar stories together, I have to say:
Logan never got rid of his demons but could be heroic. He is weapon x, an animal and somehow despite all that sometimes a decent guy, who is able to be heroic, caring, protective. Logan never got rid of his past, lived in the fear of himself. This is the essence of a Wolverine story for me. To me Wolverine is a person who can be heroic despite all his /her demons he/she carries with him/her. It is the constant struggle with what he is and what he wants to be, as it was done so good in Glaremont's first Wolverine solo. This are the stories I prefer. This is Logan's legacy to me and not the costume or codename. And having the direct comparison here, I come to love Logan even more with all he had accomplished!
And OML delivers all that! So I am happy to have him in this world, confronting him with all he had done, keeping it all alive and not being plastered over with what has to be done in his old world! For me this makes a much more interesting story. To me he is Wolverine even if he do not call himself that any more. I am curious how this plays out in the team books, (It was addressed in EXM between Jean and OLM but he was not the focus in this book, which is ok) but I have to admit I am getting nervous of the number of books he will be in!
I would love to see Laura in one or more team book(s), because I like her. But I have the impression most writers have no clue what to do with her in her new role. So maybe it is best to let Taylor define it first in his book!
But back on topic:
It seems to me, that Taylor wants to remove every struggle and discomfort of Laura's live. If this is his way to go with Laura I will not follow. But now I am still curious of ANW “Immune” and how Taylor wants to proceed Laura's journey.

And to answer the initial question of this thread: EofS2 can not be compared with the original EofS! It was marketed all wrong.

[Beaubier]

It does seem that was Taylor's ultimate goal for this arc. It seems like he wanted to remove any potential struggles Laura had off the table. Trigger scent? 100% cured by Jean, flawlessly. Hence, there was absolutely no tension or struggle when Kimura tossed it out again. I think it would've been more interesting if it was imperfect, or what if Laura could have focused through it and channeled her rage? The last writers to do anything interesting with it were K/Y in X-Force; Liu and Hopeless left a bad taste in my mouth for it. Taylor could've 'cured' her while doing something interesting with it. He didn't. He also could've developed Kinura past the one dimensional villain she's always been, he didn't. Instead he portrayed her dumber than she's ever been in terms of her plan. I mean, if Bellona had to kill Daylesville, then obviously they had to know Laura manages to resist trigger scent. Still Kimura sent Laura after Tyger Tiger anyway. Also, her torturing her in a sensory deprivation tank was pretty lame compared to the more visceral things Kimura's done before. Maybe if he'd actually spent some time in the story showing what Laura was going through and really depicting how horrifying it was for her, there'd have been more of an impact. Instead that was all skipped. Lastly, there was the cop out ending. Laura gets to walk away from this arc without a care in the world because now all of her problems with her past are solved, AND she's exonerated for a crime she didn't commit. That reveal almost made it ridiculously apparent how Taylor doesn't want Laura to carry any discomfort. I'm also brought to mind how he said while he's not interested in writing Laura/Angel, he doesn't want to break them up because it'd cause Laura pain. Smh

One of the things I've loved about Laura is despite her personal struggles, she manages to overcome. Taylor seems more interested in writing a morally pure hero that never does wrong. I'll give him another couple arcs to turn it around. But if the writing stays at this level, not sure I'll stick around.

I did like the scene where Laura finally kills Kimura, and the 'beans' part cracked me up. Everything else was a solid meh.