The all spoilers Superman Reborn thread. *SPOILERS*

[gwangung]

Yeah, we're a minority in this, but you're not alone. I too have a certain....respect....for the "takes a life" stories. I might (depending on my mood) even say that Clark killing Zod is one of the best Superman stories you can ever tell, and Clark having a a no kill policy because of that is much more powerful and interesting than him not killing because, like any rational person, he doesn't want to, and the sight disgusts him because super senses and basic decency.

Count me among them, too. I see a Superman who thought it was a bad thing to kill, but once he was forced to do so for good reasons, said "Never Again." (I'm one of those who thought he was justified in killing the pocket universe Kryptonians---the inhabitants of THAT universe would rightly do so, and as the last representative of the inhabitants, he would feel compelled to carry out their wishes. The aftermath of THAT would make his "no-killing" vow iron-clad).

[jyamen]

Basically we're looking at a NEWnu52, where the history pretty much stands and the last 6 or whatever years now need rebooting to make the stories work. Theres still so much that doesn't fit together, from Wonder Womens relationship with him, to Wally West pointing to history far longer than what New52 has admitted (the same goes for Batman, but that's been a thorn in readers side since the new 52s inception) Titans memories returning to pre52, to Donna Troys history ignoring D.Finch's run.

The next coupla years are basically one big apology for the new52.

[Scott Taylor]

This leaves me really wondering about Legion of Super Heroes, and how/if Superboy will fit into that history.

[Atomic Man]

This leaves me really wondering about Legion of Super Heroes, and how/if Superboy will fit into that history.

Morrison's Action run established that Clark operated with the LoSH in the future wearing a variation of his later jeans/t-shirt costume. That fits right in with pre-Flashpoint/Secret Origins, so I have a feeling Reborn is key to the return of the LoSH. I would love to see Dini and Mankhe on a LoSH book.

[SuperCrab]

Basically we're looking at a NEWnu52, where the history pretty much stands and the last 6 or whatever years now need rebooting to make the stories work. Theres still so much that doesn't fit together, from Wonder Womens relationship with him, to Wally West pointing to history far longer than what New52 has admitted (the same goes for Batman, but that's been a thorn in readers side since the new 52s inception) Titans memories returning to pre52, to Donna Troys history ignoring D.Finch's run.

The next coupla years are basically one big apology for the new52.

When do they apologize for getting rid of the New52?

[Last Son of Krypton]

When do they apologize for getting rid of the New52?

Next relaunch.

[Dataweaver]

When do they apologize for getting rid of the New52?

Some time after they get rid of it.

[Scott Taylor]

I would love to see Dini and Mankhe on a LoSH book.

Yah, you and me both. Been too long without a decent LoSH book.

[Miles To Go]

When do they apologize for getting rid of the New52?

When WB apologize for what they did to Scrappy Doo in the first Scooby-Doo Movie.

[Jokerz79]

I don't find the continuity between New 52 and Pre-Flashpoint confusing.

Barry went back in time to Flashpoint during that time Superman, Lois, and Jimmy went to Gotham and it was Stolen and taken to convergence. The mysterious figure Mr. Oz keeps talking about at that time changed reality stealing ten years from the DC Universe and created New 52. In the New 52 Universe Kid Flash (Caucasian Wally West) of the New 52 was forgotten because of Mr. Twister during an early mission with the original Teen Titans he actually went into the Speed Force and gained his Pre-Flashpoint memories and discovered someone altered the DC Universe. After the events of Convergence Pre-Flashpoint Superman and his Lois and their son arrived on the New 52 Earth when the Justice League first formed they assumed it was a new universe not their own altered and decided to live in the Shadows. Whoever created the New 52 Universe created a duplicate Superman for it and he was New 52 Superman after his death and New 52 Lois's deaths their Pre-Flashpoint counterparts and their son came out of the shadows and have now merged with their New 52 counterparts which altered history and destroying whatever this mysterious figure did creating a hybrid past of both Pre-Flashpoint and New 52. Convoluted? Yes but at least the past and legacies of the past are being restored. Which is why Crisis of the Infinite Earths was brilliant and New 52 was not Crisis cherry picked DC history and clearly stated what was canon while New 52 left everything a mess with examples like the mandate the heroes were only around for 5 years yet Batman and Green Lantern histories remained almost intact. As confusing as this can be I think DC needed it.

[Atomic Man]

I don't find the continuity between New 52 and Pre-Flashpoint confusing.

Barry went back in time to Flashpoint during that time Superman, Lois, and Jimmy went to Gotham and it was Stolen and taken to convergence. The mysterious figure Mr. Oz keeps talking about at that time changed reality stealing ten years from the DC Universe and created New 52. In the New 52 Universe Kid Flash (Caucasian Wally West) of the New 52 was forgotten because of Mr. Twister during an early mission with the original Teen Titans he actually went into the Speed Force and gained his Pre-Flashpoint memories and discovered someone altered the DC Universe. After the events of Convergence Pre-Flashpoint Superman and his Lois and their son arrived on the New 52 Earth when the Justice League first formed they assumed it was a new universe not their own altered and decided to live in the Shadows. Whoever created the New 52 Universe created a duplicate Superman for it and he was New 52 Superman after his death and New 52 Lois's deaths their Pre-Flashpoint counterparts and their son came out of the shadows and have now merged with their New 52 counterparts which altered history and destroying whatever this mysterious figure did creating a hybrid past of both Pre-Flashpoint and New 52. Convoluted? Yes but at least the past and legacies of the past are being restored. Which is why Crisis of the Infinite Earths was brilliant and New 52 was not Crisis cherry picked DC history and clearly stated what was canon while New 52 left everything a mess with examples like the mandate the heroes were only around for 5 years yet Batman and Green Lantern histories remained almost intact. As confusing as this can be I think DC needed it.

That's the gist of it. I think Manhattan was more interested in creating a new Superman for his "experiment" than he was in dividing Superman; the how and why of the split will, however, explain that.

As for COIE being "brilliant," I'm not sure I can agree. It's a well-written story and the art is beautiful, but it was an "and/or" approach that destroyed the brilliant device that was the Multiverse. DC has never been the same since and has been trying to repair the damage for 31 years now. There was a way to keep the Multiverse intact and launch a brand new Earth with a "ground zero" continuity, but DC didn't want to do it and didn't even go so far as to do a full reboot. None of the post-COIE titles started with origin stories outside of minis or arcs within existing titles, and only some books were renumbered. I'm not saying that I like either of those ideas, but I do think that's what a "true" reboot would have to be, and DC has never had the resolve to do it. Infinite Crisis, despite its horrid treatment of Superboy Prime, Kal-L, Lois, and Alexander Luthor, was a step in the right direction but was curtailed by the suits at WB with the New 52. Let's hope Rebirth will continue what was started 11 years ago and succeed this time.

[DragonPiece]

I don't find the continuity between New 52 and Pre-Flashpoint confusing.

Barry went back in time to Flashpoint during that time Superman, Lois, and Jimmy went to Gotham and it was Stolen and taken to convergence. The mysterious figure Mr. Oz keeps talking about at that time changed reality stealing ten years from the DC Universe and created New 52. In the New 52 Universe Kid Flash (Caucasian Wally West) of the New 52 was forgotten because of Mr. Twister during an early mission with the original Teen Titans he actually went into the Speed Force and gained his Pre-Flashpoint memories and discovered someone altered the DC Universe. After the events of Convergence Pre-Flashpoint Superman and his Lois and their son arrived on the New 52 Earth when the Justice League first formed they assumed it was a new universe not their own altered and decided to live in the Shadows. Whoever created the New 52 Universe created a duplicate Superman for it and he was New 52 Superman after his death and New 52 Lois's deaths their Pre-Flashpoint counterparts and their son came out of the shadows and have now merged with their New 52 counterparts which altered history and destroying whatever this mysterious figure did creating a hybrid past of both Pre-Flashpoint and New 52. Convoluted? Yes but at least the past and legacies of the past are being restored. Which is why Crisis of the Infinite Earths was brilliant and New 52 was not Crisis cherry picked DC history and clearly stated what was canon while New 52 left everything a mess with examples like the mandate the heroes were only around for 5 years yet Batman and Green Lantern histories remained almost intact. As confusing as this can be I think DC needed it.

This whole paragraph is insane in itself, not saying I don't understand, but you can understand just by writing all of that, how crazy this all is.

[Chris24601]

This whole paragraph is insane in itself, not saying I don't understand, but you can understand just by writing all of that, how crazy this all is.

It may be crazy in execution, but the end result is that in a month from now you can just tell a new reader, "everything ever to appear in a Superman comic counts and happened in some fashion."

Convergence finished the work of Infinite Crisis and completely undid the COIE split... there was no longer a Pre/Post-Crisis Superman (the guy even remembers silly stories like Rainbow Batman for crying out loud). Superman Reborn finishes the job by merging most of the New52 events into his backstory. There's no longer a need to refer to Pre-Crisis/Post-Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint/New52... its all just Superman.

If they do the job right, a year from now you'll never have to mention things like Crisis, Flashpoint or Convergence when explaining Superman again. Just particular stories like Death of Superman, For the Man who has Everything and so forth that all happened to the same guy.

If you really think about it, open heart surgery is utter barbarity; you are literally cut a person open, split apart their ribs and cut into their heart. Its ugly and messy at the time, but the end goal of it all is to save the patient's life from something even worse. Short of a real time machine so you could go back and hit the authors of Crisis on Infinite Earths over the head with back issues of every continuity reboot since, Superman Reborn is probably the best patch job we're going to be able to get so that Superman can be on the same playing field as Batman and, to a lesser extent, Flash and Green Lantern (Wonder Woman's always going to be a struggle, but I'd argue the current version is mostly on track too for something that can fit all of her history into it somewhere).

It might be a big nasty scar right now, but scars fade in time if they're given the chance to heal.

[The Nuke]

I don't think it's that confusing. At least in most of the Heroes case.

For Superman continuity will have to be altered to somehow fit Jon into the Pre-52 continuity. Meaning after Lois and Clark got married, they had a kid. That kid was there through a lot of Supermans Pre-52 stories now.

But anyway. Confusing or not. The whole idea is simple. EVerything in Supermans history counts now, pre-pre52 as well probably in some cases. Just as everything in Batman's history will count and so on. So those pissed about continuity getting erased got their wish. Yes there will need to be alterations here and there, but things will generally be the same as you remember. More so then the Nu52 "It happened. Maybe. Kinda."

The NU52 happened, as was the plan. These stories happened to these Pre-52 characters now. and that's all that matters. IT's just a matter of moving forward and not back now.