The all spoilers Superman Reborn thread. *SPOILERS*

[Last Son of Krypton]

DC comics sucks. Seriously they do. I wish they didn't have the rights to Superman.

They don't know what to do with character. Must he be single, married, young, old, fight for the oppressed or for his family, new continuity or old one? Just give back the Superman rights to Marvel.

[FishyZombie]

That's exactly why. And if you are going to go full PC, why do you include Ulysses? Dude was nothing special.

because Geoff Johns Also I think they are keeping N52 Phantom King and Lex Luthor. Meanwhile Cyborg Superman and maybe Metallo (he is a villain again, I don't know much about PF Metallo) are more pre-flashpointy.

[DragonPiece]

Am I missing something? People are acting as if there's been some sort of compromise, but the splash page seems to be entirely Post-Crisis to me.

The compromise is that stories in the new 52 did happen, we just don't know what yet besides John's new 52 superman run.

[MeloDet]

The compromise is that stories in the new 52 did happen, we just don't know what yet besides John's new 52 superman run.

I guess the only issue I have with that is that they chose such an inconsequential story. Just seems to easy you know? Like "don't worry some of the New 52 stories still happened, just not any of the ones that actually affected him". I mean I knew it was going to be mostly Post-Crisis going in, but this really is heavily slanted. Basically entirely post-crisis with one or two villains that the writers and editorial felt like keeping around.

Also this is a really minor point, but I'm a little miffed at the depictions of the daily planet in what appears to be Clark's early years. Dude looks Donner level outdated in those pictures lol

[DragonPiece]

I guess the only issue I have with that is that they chose such an inconsequential story. Just seems to easy you know? Like "don't worry some of the New 52 stories still happened, just not any of the ones that actually affected him".

Also this is a really minor point, but I'm a little miffed at the depictions of the daily planet in what appears to be Clark's early years. Dude looks Donner level outdated in those pictures lol

heh, that is funny you say Donner level because going by the pic the new origin is based on secret origin, and Johns and Gary Frank modeled that origin a lot after the original Donner Superman movie.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

But the actual facts will be that they were not. It's also seems as if though there were never two Supermen or Lois' in this timeline. It seems to go at a constant stream. Their reasons for moving upstate likely changed if there were not two Supermen, if Jon was born on Earth/everyone knows he's Lois and Clark's son (told ya), and they never went away.

I just wonder how they'll do it. I mean, the retcons are pretty darn big as we can see. Jon being born on Earth changes everything.

spoilers:

You were right that Jon's birth was retconned. But, they're still going to have to address some big holes here. It depends on what they do with everyone else's memories. Like, does Diana still remember being Clark's girlfriend? Or has that just been written out of canon? Its obvious from the image that Lois and Clark married exactly as they did Pre-Flashpoint, so that would mean that he's been off the market for years. So, if Diana DOES remember it, then they're going to have to find some way of explaining how for her, it was a few months ago, but that he's been married to Lois for years. I'm looking at this as like a dry run for the larger Rebirth event. So, them seemingly folding in Superman's post-Flashpoint adventures into his pre-Flashpoint life means that, obviously, some of his post-Flashpoint adventures may have to be rewritten to fit in. This might also be what they end up doing to the rest of the DCU. In other words, they'll have to rewrite some of Diana and Bruce's post-Flashpoint adventures to fit in with their Pre-Flashpoint lives as well. And, in all honesty, it might be easier to do it with Diana and Bruce than with Clark given that (1) Rebirth already retconned N52 Wonder Woman as a "lie" and (2) Batman already retained the lions' share of his continuity going into the N52. They'd only really just need to add back Steph and Cass's histories and Tim's time as a Robin. So, in that case, it may be that when all is said and done, Diana may remember those adventures from a couple of months ago with Clark but not being with Clark. And, just to be clear, I'm NOT saying this WILL happen. I'm saying its one of the POSSIBILITIES

end of spoilers

[Prime]

They don't know what to do with character. Must he be single, married, young, old, fight for the oppressed or for his family, new continuity or old one? Just give back the Superman rights to Marvel.

Lol It's Kim's DC gave the rights back to Marvel.

[Prime]

I guess the only issue I have with that is that they chose such an inconsequential story. Just seems to easy you know? Like "don't worry some of the New 52 stories still happened, just not any of the ones that actually affected him". I mean I knew it was going to be mostly Post-Crisis going in, but this really is heavily slanted. Basically entirely post-crisis with one or two villains that the writers and editorial felt like keeping around.

Also this is a really minor point, but I'm a little miffed at the depictions of the daily planet in what appears to be Clark's early years. Dude looks Donner level outdated in those pictures lol

Donner...because that's what Superman needed right? Stale's vile is just around the corner guys.

[Sacred Knight]

Given that Johns reportedly co-plotted this event, it seems as though that would mean that Secret Origin is canon again.

spoilers:

Jor El and Lara have the exact same design as they did in Secret Origin. Metallo, in the rogues gallery line up looks exactly as he did in Secret Origin. The rocket is identical to the rocket in SO. There's also that panel with Clark and Lana walking right past Lex in the hallway at their school. Jor El having black hair doesn't change that. Its at most, an update of his age, at least its a cosmetic error by Mahnke.

end of spoilers

Johns having influence (of which really all that is confirmed is that he has a hand in everything to tie together the overall Rebirth tale; that's his major thing) doesn't change the fact that the actual panels flat out tells us the history has changed. So SO is not canon. Will it be similar? Quite possible. There is definitely imagery there, I'm not denying that. But it will be mixed with other stuff. Thus it won't be the actual SO, thus SO is not cemented. No written origin is now. The reality is that his ultimate origin is once again, at this point in time, untold. That surely brings back bad memories for longtime fans but that's where we're at in the immediate present.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

They say that this causes a change throughout all existence, which would mean that everybody's memories will be changed, including Wonder Woman's, whose memories of her own past have already been thrown into doubt.

Depending upon how much New 52 continuity they want to keep, they could have everybody remember the Superman Blue/Superman Red split, which occurred "a few months ago" in comic time (2011 our time). This way, almost all of the New 52 era stories would still be in continuity, because you'd still have two pairs of Supermen & Lois co-existing for that period of time. This would explain why Lois & Clark are still in Hamilton at the start of the next arc and need to move back to Metropolis. It would also help them with their Jon aging issue because they could include their time in Brainiac's bottled city with Superdad & MaLois.

[MeloDet]

Even though it looks like I'll be gone after this, I am curious to see the full issue. Cause that moment where Lois and Clark remember seems pathetically short if it isn't part of a longer scene. Just Jon asking them to remember and them remembering? I hope my opinions on the status quo don't taint my saying that it seems like poor storytelling.

Would be better played as a gradual process where Jon entreats with them, Lois and Clark looks at each other like no, were not married we couldn't be, Jon keeps going and they start being swayed thinking maybe... Seems like it's okay for a more powerful moment imo rather than the box ticking that it is here.

[Prime]

Even though it looks like I'll be gone after this, I am curious to see the full issue. Cause that moment where Lois and Clark remember seems pathetically short if it isn't part of a longer scene. Just Jon asking them to remember and them remembering? I hope my opinions on the status quo don't taint my saying that it seems like poor storytelling.

Would be better played as a gradual process where Jon entreats with them, Lois and Clark looks at each other like no, were not married we couldn't be, Jon keeps going and they start being swayed thinking maybe... Seems like it's okay for a more powerful moment imo rather than the box ticking that it is here.

This is the end for you reading Superman comics?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

They don't know what to do with character. Must he be single, married, young, old, fight for the oppressed or for his family, new continuity or old one? Just give back the Superman rights to Marvel.

If Marvel had gotten the rights to Superman initially, there never would have been the New 52, which would be reason enough to give them the rights now, anyway.

[Superlad93]

You were right that Jon's birth was retconned. But, they're still going to have to address some big holes here.

Not saying they won't. I even state that I wonder how they'll do it. But the facts are that Jon was born on this Earth, and that eliminates Convergence and Lois & Clark as part of the history. Those are just facts I'm stating.

It depends on what they do with everyone else's memories. Like, does Diana still remember being Clark's girlfriend? Or has that just been written out of canon? Its obvious from the image that Lois and Clark married exactly as they did Pre-Flashpoint, so that would mean that he's been off the market for years. So, if Diana DOES remember it, then they're going to have to find some way of explaining how for her, it was a few months ago, but that he's been married to Lois for years.

I doubt they'll keep it, but if they do then I imagine it'll have only lasted a few weeks to a month or so. Not hard. Time was just rewritten, virtually anything is possible.

I'm looking at this as like a dry run for the larger Rebirth event. So, them seemingly folding in Superman's post-Flashpoint adventures into his pre-Flashpoint life means that, obviously, some of his post-Flashpoint adventures may have to be rewritten to fit in. This might also be what they end up doing to the rest of the DCU. In other words, they'll have to rewrite some of Diana and Bruce's post-Flashpoint adventures to fit in with their Pre-Flashpoint lives as well. So, in that case, it may be that when all is said and done, Diana may remember those adventures from a couple of months ago with Clark but she won't remember being with Clark.

I'd say Wally was the Alpha and Superman is the Beta of what Post-Rebirth event is. It's not the Pre-52 verbatim, but it's a whole lot closer than before. Stuff is added in and Pre-52 aesthetics are not at all assured going forward for all characters (though even if it's changed it still looks closer to Pre-52).

The end result likely won't be Pre-52 verbatim, but rather a new and updated version.

[MeloDet]

This is the end for you reading Superman comics?

For the time being yeah. Ive been on the edge for a while, but I just don't connect to Superman as a dad, and well, this does absolutely nothing to convince me to stay.