The all spoilers Superman Reborn thread. *SPOILERS*

[Last Son of Krypton]

If Marvel had gotten the rights to Superman initially, there never would have been the New 52, which would be reason enough to give them the rights now, anyway.

Byrne's reboot wouldn't have happened either.

[Jadeb]

Even though it looks like I'll be gone after this, I am curious to see the full issue. Cause that moment where Lois and Clark remember seems pathetically short if it isn't part of a longer scene. Just Jon asking them to remember and them remembering? I hope my opinions on the status quo don't taint my saying that it seems like poor storytelling.

Would be better played as a gradual process where Jon entreats with them, Lois and Clark looks at each other like no, were not married we couldn't be, Jon keeps going and they start being swayed thinking maybe... Seems like it's okay for a more powerful moment imo rather than the box ticking that it is here.

I'm a big fan of Superdad and have really dug the story so far, but, yeah, that seems really abrupt and unconvincing. Hope there's more to it.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

He would if the goal was to show contrast between the Supermen's leagues and lives.

spoilers:

I don't know. That would seem like a huge middle finger to Pre-Flashpoint fans.

end of spoilers

But now, some of those memories have made it into the New 52, so they're valid.

spoilers:

Well, I don't know. The image by itself seems to suggest that, at least as far as Superman is concerned, they're folding post-flashpoint into pre-flashpoint, which would be consistent with what Johns has at least conveyed about Rebirth. If he really wants to "break down the wall" between pre-2011 and post-2011, its not about those memories "making it into the New 52" as if the New 52 was a separate universe. I think we need to stop thinking of Pre-Flashpoint and New 52 as if they're separate universes. They're not. Its about making the New 52 into a legitimate continuation of the Pre-Flashpoint universe, which can be done.

end of spoilers

Though I still doubt the Silver age JLA is in continuity. They seem pretty set on mirroring the movies by having Cyborg on the team.

I don't think its in canon either...yet. But, that mirroring you're referring to can easily be accomplished without making Cy a founding member. I mean, Marvel didn't retcon Ant-Man and Wasp out as founding Avengers just because Black Widow and Hawkeye took their place in the movies. Just keep Cyborg on the team in present day and retcon the Silver Age founders back into canon. They've done it before. That's all I'm saying.

Plus, keeping Cy as a founding member hurts him for other reasons (*cough* no Titans connections/friendships *cough*).

[Prime]

For the time being yeah. Ive been on the edge for a while, but I just don't connect to Superman as a dad, and well, this does absolutely nothing to convince me to stay.

...I think we are on the same boat. I only stayed this far to know what happened to Superbro, now there really is no reason to stay. Like you said, I can't connect to this version of the character at the moment or be entertained by it because of how we got here. So for the moment I toll will gone. Will read the issue full before then of course.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Byrne's reboot wouldn't have happened either.

Yeah. All of Superman stories from 1956 onwards would be in one continuity. That would be amazing.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Johns having influence (of which really all that is confirmed is that he has a hand in everything to tie together the overall Rebirth tale; that's his major thing) doesn't change the fact that the actual panels flat out tells us the history has changed. So SO is not canon. Will it be similar? Quite possible. There is definitely imagery there, I'm not denying that. But it will be mixed with other stuff. Thus it won't be the actual SO, thus SO is not cemented. No written origin is now. The reality is that his ultimate origin is once again, at this point in time, untold. That surely brings back bad memories for longtime fans but that's where we're at in the immediate present.

spoilers:

Okay. You're right that we may get another origin in a couple years. However, it certainly seems right now that SO is becoming the canon origin again. And history has changed, but that change is likely more on the "let's make Superman's post-FP life feel at least like a continuation of his Pre-FP life" side than anything else. They have said "merger," but I have a hunch its just a way for them to "de-boot" Superman.

end of spoilers

[SuperCrab]

I'm guessing this is ok to post at this point: https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/03...man-lois-lane/

Thanks. Someone also sent me a PM, but I'm sure a lot of people are going to be coming into this thread looking for a link, so it's good to have it here!

This is a wait and see type of thing for me. It is better than the worse-case scenario of them saying New52 Superman wasn't a real Superman and/or all of his experiences no longer happened and/or Rebirth Superman is just the real deal with no merger. We got something here- that the New52 Superman was half of Superman who was split off, that he's merging with the Rebirth Superman and creating a third Superman, and there is a new timeline that could in theory incorporate some New52 adventures, perhaps with slightly different details.

And I want to be positive and say "Hey, it's a new Superman, and some part of him is potentially similar to the New52 Superman who I loved. It's moving past the Rebirth Superman, who I didn't really care for, and giving me someone new to potentially embrace." and I guess that is part of the way I'm feeling.

That said, that montage was very light on New52 moments (Off the top of my head- there's really just Ulysses). Obviously, Rebirth Superman is the dominant half here, with his memories being in the majority, and his married with a child status quo. Jon even just apparently rewrote the universe, in a sense, which is sort of way into Mary Sue territory, making him more important than he should be.

I think a lot will depend on what gets incorporated going forward. Does Superman telling his life story include some real New52 moments? What about future adventures, do we at least occasionally see him remember something or have him revisit something unique to the New52? Also, the personality of the new Superman matters- Do they at least give him a tweak here and there relative to Rebirth Superman to reflect what New52 fans might like to see and that "Superman Red" is part of who he is?

One positive that is kind of neutral between Rebirth Superman and New52 Superman is the return of a status quo where Clark Kent works as a journalist at the Daily Planet, presumably with the familiar DP cast. That's classic Superman and it's about time! Between Truth and then Rebirth, it's been years since Superman has been Clark Kent, journalist. He went from being on the run to dying to being a farmer and a Dad (In a sense- i was actually two different Supermen, though). It'll be nice to have him do some reporting and hang out by the water cooler with Jim, Ron, Steve, Lois, Perry, and Kat (Can we get her back from Supergirl?), if indeed that happens. I know that New52 Superman fans are sometimes cast as not liking the traditional Superman setup with the Daily Planet and stuff, but I liked it, and in fact that was most the New52 Superman's stint, after starting off at the Daily Star, except for Truth, and the time he quit to start the blog (And the blog thing I count as basically Daily Planet- he was a journalist, he had interactions with the cast from the Planet).

This should move Superman back to Metropolis, where he belongs, the fact that the solicitations for the Superman title show him in Hamilton aside (I hope that's just wrapping that up. It sounds like they are trying to move out when something happens that takes up 6 issues. )- it does look like he's headed back to Metropolis.

This should at least leave room for future writers to acknowledge New52 plotpoints as having happened when they want to, which is a potential half a loaf.

Here's a question:

Anyone see anything on there in the montage that happened to or relates to *only* one of the two Pre-Crisis Supermen? Or is it all Post-Crisis, Rebirth, New52, and new stuff?

I definitely sense a Donner/Christopher Reeves/movie Supermen vibe.

[MeloDet]

Does Superman telling his life story include some real New52 moments?

This is a really good way of simplifying the issue. If this Superman telling his life story doesn't include any N52 momebts, whether because the events didn't happen or because they are down played, then I think it's safe to say that the New 52 is gone in every meaningful way.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I'd say Wally was the Alpha and Superman is the Beta of what Post-Rebirth event is. It's not the Pre-52 verbatim, but it's a whole lot closer than before. Stuff is added in and Pre-52 aesthetics are not at all assured going forward for all characters (though even if it's changed it still looks closer to Pre-52).

The end result likely won't be Pre-52 verbatim, but rather a new and updated version.

spoilers:

I think that Supes may be sort of the guinea pig as to what will be the end game of Rebirth. It looks like Supes has regained like 90%, if not all, of his Pre-Flashpoint life, while keeping some consistent parts of his N52 life. So, like if Wally's time as a NTT, as Flash and on the League and his marriage to Linda and his kids were restored to the time stream. That may be refuted, but only time will tell. However, it might be that Superman has regained the "10 years" that Wally was talking about in DCU Rebirth (kinda already had them, but still) and will be spreading the word around the rest of the DCU like "Hey guys, guess what? Some cosmic being has been messing with our lives and your lives were actually the way I remembered them before someone stole years off your lives."

end of spoilers

Does that make sense? I don't know. We'll have to see what happens.

[Superlad93]

I don't know. That would seem like a huge middle finger to Pre-Flashpoint fans.

Not really sure how using previously established continuity to show contrast between two versions of the League is a "middle finger" to anyone. The fact of the matter is, the League Hitch was given was different from the League Superdad used to come from, and in order to highlight the differences he had Superdad comment on that fact. Pretty simple.

But as it stands now, the Batman and Wonder Woman are the only Batman and Wonder Woman that Superman has now known because he now has a singular timeline. But it's possible that some of his old League adventures have made it into the new time line.

Well, I don't know. The image by itself seems to suggest that, at least as far as Superman is concerned, they're folding post-flashpoint into pre-flashpoint

You can think of this as Pre-52 if you'd like, but the fact of the matter is that it's not that verbatim. Just as Wally brought back a lot from Pre-52, he also didn't bring it all back. There were alterations. If you look on the image you can see Morrison's villains Vyn and Superdoomsday. That's straight up New 52, homie.

I don't think its in canon either...yet. But, that mirroring you're referring to can easily be accomplished without making Cy a founding member.

Sure, I totally agree. They could if they wanted to.

Plus, keeping Cy as a founding member hurts him for other reasons (*cough* no Titans connections/friendships *cough*).

I honestly think Cyborg is one of the single worst choices to be on the JLA, and it does a disservice to both the JLA as a concept and him as a concept and character. One of the pillars of his character and concept is that he's an allegory for being a "scared of his own skin" teen. That idea of being uncomfortable needs to be there in order for him to work, but that sort of against has no place on the JLA. They are all well adjusted adults who are all 'bout gettin sh!t done. If one of them transforms into an energy being that needs a containment suit to stay tangible; do you know what they do? Show up for the next JLA meeting without missing a step.

I'd have preferred it if they used Black Lightning, Vixen, Ryan Cho's Atom, Mr. Terrific, or (my personal favorite choice) Amazing-Man. All of these would've been better choices than Cyborg, imo.

So yeah, I get where you're coming from.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Basically impossible to determine what his background was like at this point - Jor-El and Lara are in their Secret Origins getups, but they're younger. All the flashback material for before Clark tells Lois who he is is super-ambiguous - the rocket could be from Secret Origin or Men of Steel, the Clark in high school kinda looks like Morales' lanky stringbean, we don't know if he had a stint at the Daily Star where he was a Superman in a t-shirt and jeans prior to getting hired at the Planet. I don't think they'll go full Secret Origin, because at that point there's no reason to call it a merger and they might as well have committed fully to "this is the pre-Flashpoint Superman reintegrated into the universe" rather than muddying the waters and potentially disappointing both sides, but there's no indication of any substance as to what might have really gone down. The one thing we can probably still say for certain about his history now outside of what we literally saw is that something resembling (but not identical, same as how everyone remembered Crisis for years but not what literally happened) the Truth->Hamilton->Fake Clark->Fight with Mxyzptlk chain of events will have still happened. They remember having just fought Mxy which presumably means he was around as Fake Clark, and they still lived in Hamilton, so it's fair to guess Superman's identity was somehow exposed, which is when Jon learned the truth about his parents, so they moved to Hamilton only for the Fake Clark to appear and unwittingly cover for them, and then things happen pretty much like we saw in Jurgens' Action.

[Superlad93]

I think it's strongly implied that Lex went to high school with Clark and Lana. That redhead in the picture is obviously him. If I remember right, Man of Steel's rocket was yellow and blue and not shaped like a rocket.

Honestly, I think it's pretty futile to think of this new origin as any singular one from the past. It's basically everything. The "Ultimate Superman" LIVES!!!!!

Also Truth sounds like a great reason for Clark and Lois to move to Hamilton under new names. So that would leave intact the lion's share of Tomasi and Gleason's run.

[DragonPiece]

I think it's strongly implied that Lex went to high school with Clark and Lana. That redhead in the picture is obviously him. If I remember right, Man of Steel's rocket was yellow and blue and not shaped like a rocket.

Honestly, I think it's pretty futile to think of this new origin as any singular one from the past. It's basically everything. The "Ultimate Superman" LIVES!!!!!

Also Truth sounds like a great reason for Clark and Lois to move to Hamilton under new names. So that would leave intact the lion's share of Tomasi and Gleason's run.

So Superman's own wife exposed his identity? Would be weird for that to be in continuity still.

edit: I saw someone mention on another site that this will make Superman never wearing underwear in continuity, which makes me love this new timeline even more lol.

[Patrick Gerard]

I think the major tell here is going to be the Kents.

If Vyn still killed them, that's a pretty big shift.

Also the question of how Superman dressed early on.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Not really sure how using previously established continuity to show contrast between two versions of the League is a "middle finger" to anyone. The fact of the matter is, the League Hitch was given was different from the League Superdad used to come from, and in order to highlight the differences he had Superdad comment on that fact. Pretty simple.

But as it stands now, the Batman and Wonder Woman are the only Batman and Wonder Woman that Superman has now known because he now has a singular timeline. But it's possible that some of his old League adventures have made it into the new time line.

Because it would be bringing up all these famous stories that readers fell in love with, only to say to the readers "never mind, it didn't happen."

And that's what I'm saying. This is the only Batman and Wonder Woman he's known. I'd say its a "probably" that at least a lot of those stories would be re-canonized after Rebirth is over. Some of those stories (like Tower of Babel) are just too famous to ignore forever.

You can think of this as Pre-52 if you'd like, but the fact of the matter is that it's not that verbatim. Just as Wally brought back a lot from Pre-52, he also didn't bring it all back. There were alterations. If you look on the image you can see Morrison's villains Vyn and Superdoomsday. That's straight up New 52, homie.

Yeah, I already said that they were keeping consistent parts of post-Flashpoint/New 52 Superman continuity. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any inconsistencies that Superdoom and Ulysses present that outright contradict Pre-Flashpoint Superman continuity. Just now, instead of the younger, single, childless Superman, they fought the older, married, dad Superman (who remembered most things published before 2011). I'm totally fine with that.

But where's Vyn? I don't recall seeing him in the splash page. The only N52 villains I see are Superdoom and Ulysses. Plus, since Mxy has reverted back to Pre-FP, it seems that that part of Vyn's backstory has been rewritten.