Action Comics 976 Discussion

[manofsteel1979]

I’m out of the shadows for a while, just to give my 2 cents about this crossover I had some interest in. I’ll go straight to the point: story-wise, in my opinion it is probably the lowest point ever touched by a Superman comic in my whole life.

Not because of the plot. The plot was conceived in order to reach a point, and it is successful in that regard. The point was making SuperDad the official, one and only, Superman. Don’t be deceived by the “merging” thing: it is not a merger in any way, this is 100% SuperDad. We shall see what will happen in the future, but every single element from the splash page (yes, also young Lex, even if someone missed him) is compatible with SuperDad rather than Nuperman. Yes, Jor-El has a headband, but if you look very closely you’ll see it wasn’t even properly drawn by Mahnke – it is just a result of the colouring. This makes me think that it is an afterthought, or something which they added “just in case”, but I think that Nuperman is completely, definitely gone. I don’t think that this should shock anyone.

It is not the lowest point because of the dialogues. Don’t get me wrong, the dialogues and the story development are TERRIBLE, as bad as we can expect from Jurgens (“true love can conquer all”??? Seriously?) It’s basically a bad fanfic in that regard, but nothing we haven’t seen before (or even worse) in the past.

It is not the lowest point because of the art, which is great, and I think that we can all agree about it.

What I seriously find unforgivable is that we have reached a point in superhero comics where character development and psychology of the protagonists simply don’t mean anything anymore. We can seriously suggest that a major character has his own psychology forged by a “fusion of memories/feelings”, not because he lived some experiences and the reader followed him and his fictional life – which should be the basic element of a story, any story. One of the discarded solution to end the Spider-clone saga is now a reality, by the way. I am starting to think that the editors find ideas on message boards and later they implement them in the stories. I am serious.

We can seriously have a story where a kid saves the day thanks to the POWER OF LOVE and someone is dragging the characters from Watchmen into it because Manhattan stole 10 years of the characters’ life and he made them miserable because… Who cares, seriously? And more importantly – what does it ultimately mean?

Even worse, I am increasingly worried by the level of masturbatory self-reference Superman comics have reached. It’s a red queen’s race where the main purpose of Superman adventures is not getting the characters in unexplored territories. What a lot of people are aiming at is not a good development and a good conclusion, but rather a good starting point. The FINAL Superman origin. The DEFINITIVE Superman. It should sound familiar to all of us – it’s an obsessive and vaguely unhealthy nerdish ambition every Superman reader has experienced in their own life (yes, including myself) and which dates back to Return to Krypton (does anyone remember the half-silver age, half-Byrne Jor-El and Lara?), maybe even earlier. And Birthright. And Superman 200 and the three possible outcomes of reality created by Superboy’s punches. And I think that 16 friggin’ years are more than enough to have the story done (or – I speak just for myself – just read other comic books).

Seriously, it’s not about the costume, or the kid (which – at this point – I think that we can consider the new breakout character), or SuperDad vs Nuperman, a comparison which doesn’t mean anything. It’s just about proper storytelling, good or acceptable character development, new ambitious ideas. Say what you want about TRUTH – I stopped reading it halfway, just to be clear – but the scope of that story and its main ambition were infinitely more daring and interesting than this. Even GROUNDED – which is probably the worst Superman story ever written - had a more interesting premise.

Hey, welcome out of your self imposed exile!

While I may not share quite as pessimistic view as you do on this, I can't say you are completely wrong.This never ending need to "fix" Superman has been driving the ship for over a decade, and it certainly hasn't fixed anything.

That's why I am as a rule against reboots. I think the 1986 one was a grave error, I think the 2011 was an equally grave error, although at the time given the state of things the last few years , I was willing to accept it if it meant stopping the cycle of "fix it again and again until it's fixed, and then fix it even more.". Then New 52 got to the point that there would have to be some sort of fix to get the train back on the track because editorial was drunk at the controls.

I'm kind of where I was in 2011. The path here was needlessly convoluted and divisive, and we are dangerously close to returning to the endless cycle of reboots and reboots and even more reboots,but what was the solution? Things couldn't just keep going in the direction they were and the Superman brand was damaged. It's bad when someone like me, who had stuck through some really bad stuff finally just throw up my hands with TRUTH and Nuperman in general. If it wasn't for Rebirth, I'm not sure if I would have even come back.

As for Jon, I see his creation as something long overdue and SHOULD have happened long ago. instead the people in power at DC were trying to find a way to undo the marriage and return of the triangle for two just because, so they did everything they could not to take those characters into the next logical step and kept them in stasis for a decade until the could reboot it all away. I would have preferred we had seen Jon's development "real time" or as close to naturally occurring, as superhero comics can but apparently DiDio didn't want to tell stories for years with infant Jon or toddler Jon, so here we are.

[stephtanner]

I have mixed feelings about this issue. While reading it, I couldn't help but think this was one of the weirdest comics I've ever read. And I've read a lot! On the surface level I enjoyed it, but the story just made me reflect on how badly Superman has been botched over recent years. Latent resentment at how the New 52 was poorly planned and executed bubbled to the surface again. So much of this mess was avoidable.

Nevertheless, I'm glad DC is taking steps to make things right. The merger solution is not pretty and seamless, but what can one expect when the nature of the problem is so ridiculous. I love Pre-Flashpoint Superman but I knew he was never fully coming back. Even his Rebirth appearance felt different to me because he was not on his native world. I bid him a fond farewell. New 52 Superman, goodbye! I hardly knew him and never really felt compelled to read his stories, but I respect that he was the main Superman for a few years.

I warmly welcome this new composite Superman. Like in the King Solomon story about the disputed baby, one whole Superman is better than one torn in two. He's sort of like an undiscovered country. This blend of the old and the new has me excited about what the future will bring not to mention what new stories about his past can be done. I am looking forward to the fill-in-the-blank stories just as much as his future battles.

[Maxi]

So this is the sixth version of mainline continuity Superman:

1. Golden Age/Earth-Two (retroactively estabilished as a different universe version)
2. Silver Age/Earth-One
3. Post-Crisis
4. Post-Infinite Crisis (which continued the PC narrative with alterations done to his past)
5. New 52 (which retroactively became known as basically "4B")
6. Post-Reborn

It should be noted that the last three happened in less than 15 years and under the same editorial management, while the first three happened over a period of 50 years...

[bat39]

So this is the sixth version of mainline continuity Superman:

1. Golden Age/Earth-Two (retroactively estabilished as a different universe version)
2. Silver Age/Earth-One
3. Post-Crisis
4. Post-Infinite Crisis (which continued the PC narrative with alterations done to his past)
5. New 52 (which retroactively became known as basically "4B")
6. Post-Reborn

That's one way of looking at it.

Another way of looking at it is to assume that 3 and 4 are the same version with some cosmetic changes (to incorporate some elements from 2), 5 is retroactively a 'corruption' of 3/4, and 6 is a 'restoration' of a new version of 3/4 (which may even include elements from 1 and 2).

Also, from a larger narrative standpoint, 2-6 are the same entity repeatedly altered by time-travel/universe-altering Crises and other weird manipulations to reality.

Silver/Bronze Age Superman became Post-COIE Superman (thanks to the aftermath of COIE). Post-COIE Superman became Post-IC Superman (thanks to the aftermath of IC). Post-IC Superman was apparently split into one, with one half being rebooted into New 52 Superman. Now, Post-IC and New 52 Superman's energies have 'merged' to become Post-Reborn Superman.

There's also this pretty neat theory floating around the boards that Golden Age Superman shattering the time barrier by revisiting Krypton's destruction messed up his history and transformed him into Silver/Bronze Age Superman...and it would be great if DC made this official somehow (which they won't).

[manofsteel1979]

So this is the sixth version of mainline continuity Superman:

1. Golden Age/Earth-Two (retroactively estabilished as a different universe version)
2. Silver Age/Earth-One
3. Post-Crisis
4. Post-Infinite Crisis (which continued the PC narrative with alterations done to his past)
5. New 52 (which retroactively became known as basically "4B")
6. Post-Reborn

It should be noted that the last three ocurred in less than 15 years and under the same editorial management, while the first three ocurred over a period of 50 years...

Which tells you all you need to know, I think.

[hellacre]

So Superman's mythos has amounted to this. Superman as a character in terms of development, his entire make up and motivations imo is shallow and lacks real conviction and pathos. Reborn validated it. The journey in a story does not count. It's not even how you get there anymore. The character gets from point A to B with the wave of magical wand. He does not earn it anymore. Any real consequence of personal growth amounts to 0. You get told how you should feel by the writers who seem to make it up as they go along.


There are no stakes. It is all handed on a platter. A very saccharin and lacklustre one. The emotion it hopes to play off is nostalgia and nothing else. Stories asking questions, challenging the character, actually humanizing him to make life reflect life... HIS life feel and seem authentic that has gone out the door.

Batman does family and life juxtaposed with heroism better.

[andersonh1]

If not for the need to show some regard for fans of New 52 Superman, a much more straightforward alternative storyline would have simply been for post-Crisis Superman to slowly help unravel the mystery and eventually discover that this was his Earth all along. There wouldn't be any need for convoluted merging of Supermen into one. It would have been a much simpler remove and replace.

Still digesting the plot and implications here. I think on one level this is still post-Crisis Superman, but on another level they've altered enough that he's not quite the same guy. At least the flashbacks indicate that all those important stories and character moments still happened.

[Truman Burbank]

So Superman's mythos has amounted to this. Hack writing. Superman as a character in terms of development, his entire make up and motivations imo is shallow and lacks real conviction and pathos. Reborn validated it. The journey in a story does not count. It's not even how you get there anymore. The character gets from point A to B with the wave of magical wand. He does not earn it anymore. Any real consequence of personal growth amounts to 0. You get told how you should feel by the writers who seem to make it up as they go along.


There are no stakes. It is all handed on a platter. A very saccharin and lacklustre one. The emotion it hopes to play off is nostalgia and nothing else. Stories asking questions, challenging the character, actually humanizing him to make life reflect life... HIS life feel and seem authentic that has gone out the door.

Batman does family and life juxtaposed with heroism better.

You say this post is about Reborn, but I think you nailed the New 52 exactly.

[Maxi]

So Superman's mythos has amounted to this. Hack writing. Superman as a character in terms of development, his entire make up and motivations imo is shallow and lacks real conviction and pathos. Reborn validated it. The journey in a story does not count. It's not even how you get there anymore. The character gets from point A to B with the wave of magical wand. He does not earn it anymore. Any real consequence of personal growth amounts to 0. You get told how you should feel by the writers who seem to make it up as they go along.


There are no stakes. It is all handed on a platter. A very saccharin and lacklustre one. The emotion it hopes to play off is nostalgia and nothing else. Stories asking questions, challenging the character, actually humanizing him to make life reflect life... HIS life feel and seem authentic that has gone out the door.

Are you talking about Reborn or New 52?

[stillanerd]

Yeah, it always seems like whenever DC reboots, it's Superman and his history which suffers the most. And of course, Superman wouldn't even be in this position if DC left things well enough alone for the most part. At the same time, I can appreciate them trying to realign Clark, Lois, and their son, Jon into DCU proper without them being "refugees from a parallel universe." At least he also gets a better costume out of the deal.

And so far, in terms of the new timeline, we have to look at it bare bones for the time being. As been stated earlier on this thread, DC Rebirth adopts a "best of both worlds" approach, in they're taking what worked during the Post Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint DCU and the New 52 DCU and combining it into one universe. In the cast of Superman Reborn, that's what literally happened. If we look at that two-page splash page showing the new timeline, the scenes of Superman's origin are clearly supposed to be from Grant Morrison's run on Action Comics, which suggests everything from that run is still canon. We also clearly see that The Death and Return of Superman also happened, as did Lois and Clark marriage, meaning all those stories from the Triangle Era are still canon. It's the stuff involving Jon's birth and events after his birth and how those fit which is the question.

[Miles To Go]

So Superman's mythos has amounted to this. Hack writing.

I enjoyed the story, there were plenty of stakes, and there's a guarantee of greater stakes to come in the "Black Dawn" storyline, and Lois and Clark certainly earned this course correction by valiantly standing up against Mxy despite failing memories, thier core essence and iron will shone through and showed they are capable of bending destiny to their will if it means they preserve the future. An Optimistic message

[Darkstars]

Really liked this issue! I haven't been this excited for Superman stories in a LONG time! Now DC just keeping giving us a Superman of hope and fighting for justice!

[Nelliebly]

So Superman's mythos has amounted to this. Hack writing. Superman as a character in terms of development, his entire make up and motivations imo is shallow and lacks real conviction and pathos. Reborn validated it. The journey in a story does not count. It's not even how you get there anymore. The character gets from point A to B with the wave of magical wand. He does not earn it anymore. Any real consequence of personal growth amounts to 0. You get told how you should feel by the writers who seem to make it up as they go along.


There are no stakes. It is all handed on a platter. A very saccharin and lacklustre one. The emotion it hopes to play off is nostalgia and nothing else. Stories asking questions, challenging the character, actually humanizing him to make life reflect life... HIS life feel and seem authentic that has gone out the door.

Batman does family and life juxtaposed with heroism better.

We can debate until the cows came home how Rebirth should or shouldn't have been handled but the idea that Superman and Lois Lane didn't EARN this outcome is a statement I absolutely will challenge.

Lois and Clark were married for 15 years before the new 52 broke them up and used their marriage as a scapegoat. They were engaged for even longer--since before Death and Return. They were married in the Bronze Age in the Superman family books. Jon Kent was teased as early as the 1980's with "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow." Throughout Lois and Clark'a marriage, their desire for a child and longing to have one together was a plot point various times. They lost their adopted child. Their desire for a child was even part of All Star Superman. So, there is absolutely no way that you can pretend here that the happy ending here for Superman, Lois and their child wasn't earned over the years. This should have happened YEARS ago. I suspect this once again comes back to WHO the mother of this child is for you and if this child had a different mother you would be more than happy to sing a different tune.

The comparison to Batman is also misplaced. For one, Batman didn't have his continuity disrupted so badly at the start of the new 52. So he's never been put in the position that Superman was in that regard in a long time. Two, Batman has a different kind of family than Superman does but has not been shown to ever be able to sustain a healthy marriage like he has nor was he always presented as a present father for his son's whole life. So the comparison doesn't work unless you are willing to acknowledge that Superman's narrative was supremely disrupted with the new 52 and the way Lois was treated AND that Superman being married to he period has made him a different kind of hands on/present father to his child.

[Myskin]

In the cast of Superman Reborn, that's what literally happened. If we look at that two-page splash page showing the new timeline, the scenes of Superman's origin are clearly supposed to be from Grant Morrison's run on Action Comics,

They aren't.
We have a SO-like Jor-El and Lara. The rocket scene could be from SO or Morrison, they are barely distinguishable (even if I have vague memories that in Morrison's run Jonathan and Martha found the rocket in the night time). We also have a Smallville scene with a young Luthor, also from SO.
Nothing from Morrison's AC.

[FishyZombie]

So Superman's mythos has amounted to this. Hack writing. Superman as a character in terms of development, his entire make up and motivations imo is shallow and lacks real conviction and pathos. Reborn validated it. The journey in a story does not count. It's not even how you get there anymore. The character gets from point A to B with the wave of magical wand. He does not earn it anymore. Any real consequence of personal growth amounts to 0. You get told how you should feel by the writers who seem to make it up as they go along.

I fail to see how this story changes Superman's motivations, they're the same as it's always been. All this crossover accomplishes is that it's bringing back Superman's rich history. If anything this story is bringing back all of the character growth that Clark lost with the New 52.