Justice League Trailer Teaser.

[JAK]

Of course Batman will be involved in the story's conclusion. So will the rest of the League. Batman may help in Clark's resurrection or he might help him figure out exactly what he needs to do to save the day. He may even support Clark's efforts to some extent. But the point of the story, as per Zack Snyder, is to show that the League NEEDS Superman and won't be whole until he's with them. Pretty sure Clark's role will be the most significant in stopping Steppenwolf.

While I think his role will be important, I don't think it'll be the most significant. While I'm sure Snyder will try to show why the League needs Superman, I have a hard time ascribing specifics with that given the DCEU's current track record. We'll just have to see, and as I've said I hope I'm wrong, but WB still has a Bat-crush. I'll believe it only when I see it.

I don't see any point to resurrecting Superman only to have Batman steal all the glory for their victory. I just don't.

I don't see the point of it, either. That doesn't mean it won't happen, that's all I'm saying. A number of decisions made for this franchise have left me wondering "why? It'd be so easy/better to just do 'x'.." so there's every possibility this will be the same. Not that it will be, but that it could be. There are valid reasons why some of us fans can't just take the word of Snyder or the tone of the trailers.

Yes, Batman COULD have killed Superman. He still didn't. He didn't accomplish his task. He lost. Superman won.

The movie established that Batman could kill Superman with a well-thought-out strategy, the element of surprise, a Superman who had no desire to fight, and access to an extremely rare substance. Change almost any of these factors, and Batman very likely loses. And even still, it changes nothing. Batman was WRONG to want to kill Superman in the first place. Even if he succeeded in killing Superman, he would've killed the last bit of goodness in himself. He would've become the very thing he hated. Not to mention, of course, he would've succeeded only in serving Lex Luthor's agenda.

You go, Batman! You succeeded! At destroying your humanity for the amusement of another criminal! Hope you and your fanbase are proud!

Even if Batman had won, he would've lost.

Of course Batman was wrong. It's not like you'll get any pushback on that from me. And yes absolutely, even in "winning" he'd have lost. None of that negates what I'm saying. You said his mission was to kill Superman and he failed. But he didn't fail, he gave the mission up, realizing he didn't really want to do it. That's not the same thing. I also agree that if any other factor had been different, Batman would (at least I'd hope) be screwed. But in the moment where he gave up his mission, he was in every position to complete it and no one to stop him.


Now, future trailers or interviews could improve mine (and others', obviously) thoughts on this. I'm certainly open to it, moreso than some might think. I want to cheer this on. But what I've seen so far doesn't yet calm or negate thoughts of past experiences with the DCEU.

[W8IN4KAL-EL]

He has said the exact opposite on many occasions.

I know that he has BUT I am not convinced...actions speak louder than words...

[666MasterOfPuppets]

For those who say Zack Snyder hates Superman, I'll leave this link right here: https://t.co/LpMKrpNUPu

[DochaDocha]

For those who say Zack Snyder hates Superman, I'll leave this link right here: https://t.co/LpMKrpNUPu

I hardly think Snyder "hates" Superman. One could make the argument, though, that he doesn't care why we long-time fans like Superman.

[Jokerz79]

I think Snyder likes what looks cool and doesn't care to explore the deeper psychology or message of characters or stories when adapting them. I like his Dawn of Dead but I love the original Romero Dawn of the Dead and Snyder made a good movie about people holding up in a mall during a Zombie Outbreak/Apocalypse but he missed all the messages about society that Romero was exploring with it.

[JAK]

For those who say Zack Snyder hates Superman, I'll leave this link right here: https://t.co/LpMKrpNUPu

I don't think it's so much that he hates Superman as he doesn't understand him or how he connects with the audience as a character.

After reading several of Mark's articles, he strikes me as more subjective than objective; as an example: in the article you cite, Mark Huges also commits quite a bit of time to saying that Batman only killed one person in BvS when I'd tend to agree more with this video that says differently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO1ydIZNaNY

Speaking of, the channel this video is from (named "Folding Ideas") has a LOT of great videos, imo - and some (also imo) excellent examinations of MoS and BvS.

[W8IN4KAL-EL]

For those who say Zack Snyder hates Superman, I'll leave this link right here: https://t.co/LpMKrpNUPu

I looked at the link and I am sill unconvinced that Snyder likes Supes. Someone that likes him would not have had him killed so that Batman could lead/form the JLA.

[JAK]

I looked at the link and I am sill unconvinced that Snyder likes Supes. Someone that likes him would not have had him killed so that Batman could lead/form the JLA.

Well, I can understand the appeal of wanting Batman to be the one to try and get the League together, simply because it would be much harder for Batman than Superman. There's potentially a more dramatic story there.

It's been my impression that Snyder is like WB has been - they like what they see as the potential in Superman, but think that certain aspects of the character are "holding him back". Which is bull, really. But it does play into WB's history of learning the wrong lessons from things that happen to them as a company (not just with Superman, either - I have alternate WB-mistake horror stories)

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

Speaking of, the channel this video is from (named "Folding Ideas") has a LOT of great videos, imo - and some (also imo) excellent examinations of MoS and BvS.

Hey, another Folding Ideas fan.

Yep, lots of great stuff from that channel.

[Clark_Kent]

I looked at the link and I am sill unconvinced that Snyder likes Supes. Someone that likes him would not have had him killed so that Batman could lead/form the JLA.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know it was Snyder's decision, 100%, to kill Superman in BvS? Warner Brothers has been wanting to do the Death of Superman ever since Superman vol 2 #75 smashed sales records...maybe it was Snyder's choice, and maybe it wasn't so he & Terrio crafted the story to fit the corporate mandate.

Maybe Snyder sits in his house at night, twirling his mustache and proclaiming "I beat you Superman! Mwuhahahaha!"...or, maybe, WB said "we want to do the Death & Return of Superman now that we will have other heroes to feel the loss" and Snyder decided it was a good catalyst to build the League around. You don't know. I don't either, but I think it's more likely than Snyder hating Superman. Why would he jump onto directing MoS if he hated the character? It's not like he was hurting for work.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Just out of curiosity, how do you know it was Snyder's decision, 100%, to kill Superman in BvS? Warner Brothers has been wanting to do the Death of Superman ever since Superman vol 2 #75 smashed sales records...maybe it was Snyder's choice, and maybe it wasn't so he & Terrio crafted the story to fit the corporate mandate.

Maybe Snyder sits in his house at night, twirling his mustache and proclaiming "I beat you Superman! Mwuhahahaha!"...or, maybe, WB said "we want to do the Death & Return of Superman now that we will have other heroes to feel the loss" and Snyder decided it was a good catalyst to build the League around. You don't know. I don't either, but I think it's more likely than Snyder hating Superman. Why would he jump onto directing MoS if he hated the character? It's not like he was hurting for work.

Snyder himself said it was his idea and WB was like "What?" when he told them about it. Even Nolan tried to convince him to not doing it: http://collider.com/batman-v-superma...ustice-league/

[Clark_Kent]

Snyder himself said it was his idea and WB was like "What?" when he told them about it. Even Nolan tried to convince him to not doing it: http://collider.com/batman-v-superma...ustice-league/

Well then. Egg on my face, it appears lol

Also: "to bring Superman to the ultimate point in embracing his humanity." So perhaps not "because I hate him" after all.

[FishyZombie]

I think Snyder is more interested in "how the world would react to Superman" than Superman himself. In the 2 movies so far, Superman feels more like an after thought. Cavil isn't given much to work with, very few lines and is written really blandly. He's more underwritten than poorly written. It was Lex, Pa Kent, Jimmy and Doomsday that really got butchered.

[DochaDocha]

Why would he jump onto directing MoS if he hated the character? It's not like he was hurting for work.

Again, not saying he hates Superman, but it was a high profile project that likely also paid pretty well. There's not hurting for work, and there's big career opportunities.

[misslane]

I looked at the link and I am sill unconvinced that Snyder likes Supes. Someone that likes him would not have had him killed so that Batman could lead/form the JLA.

Don't put lead and form next to each other as if they're the same thing. They're not. Bruce is recruiting members for the League, but he isn't leading them nor is it clear that this team will have leaders. From what I understand, Snyder has an affinity for Arthurian myth, and his vision for the Justice League is more like a roundtable of equals than one where there is some definitive leader. It's more likely that each character excels or leads in different ways or at different points in time. Given the motifs already in the movie about rebirth -- the new age of heroes, uniting a team, bringing together mother boxes, Cyborg's body being formed via mother box, Superman's resurrection -- it seems to me that each member of the team figuratively represents a different part of a body, so to speak. It isn't alive unless all parts are drawn together. Not like it's a monster, but consider that Bruce is like Dr. Frankenstein and the League members are the body parts. Just drawing those things together isn't enough. It needs a spark. Superman, to me, is that spark. Also, Superman is kind of like Jesus and the League are kind of like the his apostles. Actually, I see Bruce as an analogue to Saul of Tarsus who began by persecuting Christians, had an epiphany, then became one of Christianity's greatest supporters. Whatever the case may be, Snyder's take on Superman's death isn't as a means to an end with that end being to diminish Superman. I think it's obvious he saw Superman as uniquely suited as a catalyst for a new age of heroes.

I think Snyder is more interested in "how the world would react to Superman" than Superman himself. In the 2 movies so far, Superman feels more like an after thought. Cavil isn't given much to work with, very few lines and is written really blandly. He's more underwritten than poorly written. It was Lex, Pa Kent, Jimmy and Doomsday that really got butchered.

Lines aren't the be all, end all. Actions speak louder than words, and we can understand and judge this Superman based on both his actions and his words. As for Lex, he wasn't far off from other Lex Luthor's in terms of motivation and behavior; he especially reminded me of Birthright Lex. Pa Kent was portrayed as a thoughtful, caring, heroic, and protective father. He instilled in his son the understanding that his love for him was unconditional and that he could one day do great things, but that the world can't be as simple for Clark as it is for others, because Clark's decisions can have worldwide consequences. Therefore, he taught Clark how to weigh the micro (personal) and the macro (global), and did his best to give Clark and the world their best chance to adapt to the change that was coming. As for Jimmy? He wasn't in the film. That was a CIA agent using "Jimmy" as a code name. It wasn't really Jimmy. It was Snyder's way of having fun with the character via an Easter Egg use of his name. Doomsday was Doomsday. He was a Kryptonian creation who killed Superman, and who adapted to the violence inflicted on him. He served as a metaphor for the futility of violence and the personal dragons we have to slay in our own psyches to change for the better.