"Loving Submission" - Yay or Nay

[Marik Swift]

How do you feel about Marston's philosophy of "Loving Submission" being reintegrated as a central aspect of Wonder Woman's character.

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Personally, I'm all for it. I feel like Diana should be the most beloved character within the DCU. Superman & other heroes have their heads so high in the clouds and doesn't understand the powerless felt by the everyday man. Wonder Woman should be that hero who is willing to submit herself to anyone she sees redeemable to remind them that she isn't above them and is even willing to be beneath them (via submission). Combat should be an absolute last resort for her.

With that, I would play up her empathy. She can see the good in others, the "true them", so to speak, and with her lasso she can help bring that person out of them. If she tells you someone is irredeemable, then they really aren't. Wording would be everything with her; she would submit herself to the "true" side of people, meaning only after the lasso of truth proves them to be bad would she honor the terms of her submission.

[CRaymond]

Nah. A person can discuss healthy sexual behavior without bondage kink.

[Awonder]

This is one of those things that definitely depends on how well it's handled. Since I have 0% faith in DC editorial to have any real clue how to deal with it, and since it can go really bad really fast, it's probably for the best that they just don't go there.

[Confuzzled]

Lol if Grant Morrison can screw it up, I doubt many of his contemporaries or his successors would be able to execute it properly.

"Loving submission" could work as an euphemism for taking the higher road and rejecting the "eye for an eye" wasteful philosophy.

[Marik Swift]

Lol if Grant Morrison can screw it up, I doubt many of his contemporaries or his successors would be able to execute it properly.

"Loving submission" could work as an euphemism for taking the higher road and rejecting the "eye for an eye" wasteful philosophy.

In what way did Morrison screw it up, in your opinion? I know many people didn't like the overall story, because they don't agree with Marston's take on the character, but as for the Loving Submission bits itself, I've seen no legitimate complaints addressed to it specifically.

[Joao]

There are better ways than "submission" to show that Diana is not above regular people.

Except if you consider things like this as loving submission, which I don't:

[SiegePerilous02]

I want it back. It shouldn't be present in every story, and it needs to be handled a certain way to work, but it's not worth getting rid of it. I don't like the idea of kink shaming Wonder Woman. I read one defense of Earth One that said something along the lines of "censoring or sanitizing a woman's sexuality for something more 'pure' is every bit as sexist as going over the top with the cheesecake" and I have to agree. It's one aspect of the whole that is Diana. Diana's a regal princess, a peace seeking diplomat, a badass warrior who is the best melee fighter in the DCU, compassionate to her enemies, and is kinky, fun and experimental in the bedroom with other consenting adults. I don't want any of those to go away.

"Loving submission" could work as an euphemism for taking the higher road and rejecting the "eye for an eye" wasteful philosophy.

The term could take on multiple meanings. Diana likes bondage play during sex, or giving herself over to a higher cause. It works for both.

[gwangung]

I want it back. It shouldn't be present in every story, and it needs to be handled a certain way to work, but it's not worth getting rid of it. I don't like the idea of kink shaming Wonder Woman. I read one defense of Earth One that said something along the lines of "censoring or sanitizing a woman's sexuality for something more 'pure' is every bit as sexist as going over the top with the cheesecake" and I have to agree. It's one aspect of the whole that is Diana. Diana's a regal princess, a peace seeking diplomat, a badass warrior who is the best melee fighter in the DCU, compassionate to her enemies, and is kinky, fun and experimental in the bedroom with other consenting adults. I don't want any of those to go away.



The term could take on multiple meanings. Diana likes bondage play during sex, or giving herself over to a higher cause. It works for both.

Totally, totally agree.

I'm not sure this would ever make it into a DC comic, but I always imagine that some of her crazier foes are in the villainy game for psychosexual reasons. And Diana has agreed to some rules with them so that they are channelling their urges into less harmful channels. That includes the "being helpless when bound" meme, and she plays strictly by those rules (but just for those people). She's very sympathetic to them, and her "play" with them is a way to guide them back to the light. (And I suspect a lot of these foes are the ones that reform and become less antisocial).

(ETA: Oh, yes, she's definitely adventuresome in the bedroom with other consenting adults....)

[SiegePerilous02]

Totally, totally agree.

I'm not sure this would ever make it into a DC comic, but I always imagine that some of her crazier foes are in the villainy game for psychosexual reasons. And Diana has agreed to some rules with them so that they are channelling their urges into less harmful channels. That includes the "being helpless when bound" meme, and she plays strictly by those rules (but just for those people). She's very sympathetic to them, and her "play" with them is a way to guide them back to the light. (And I suspect a lot of these foes are the ones that reform and become less antisocial).

(ETA: Oh, yes, she's definitely adventuresome in the bedroom with other consenting adults....)

Oh yes, this would be a great way to use the lower tier villains like Blue Snowman and Hypnota. Much more interesting than standard hero vs villain battles or overdone Greek myth stuff.

[Awonder]

I want it back. It shouldn't be present in every story, and it needs to be handled a certain way to work, but it's not worth getting rid of it. I don't like the idea of kink shaming Wonder Woman. I read one defense of Earth One that said something along the lines of "censoring or sanitizing a woman's sexuality for something more 'pure' is every bit as sexist as going over the top with the cheesecake" and I have to agree. It's one aspect of the whole that is Diana. Diana's a regal princess, a peace seeking diplomat, a badass warrior who is the best melee fighter in the DCU, compassionate to her enemies, and is kinky, fun and experimental in the bedroom with other consenting adults. I don't want any of those to go away.

The term could take on multiple meanings. Diana likes bondage play during sex, or giving herself over to a higher cause. It works for both.

I have a hard time really seeing it as sexist for the simple reason that I don't care to know anything about Superman's sex life either. These are superhero comics - super heroics is why I buy them. More important, I can't name three people working for either DC or Marvel that could do this well.

Do you really trust DiDio/DC to manage this when they can't even manage any other aspect of WW's world?

[Awonder]

Totally, totally agree.

I'm not sure this would ever make it into a DC comic, but I always imagine that some of her crazier foes are in the villainy game for psychosexual reasons. And Diana has agreed to some rules with them so that they are channelling their urges into less harmful channels. That includes the "being helpless when bound" meme, and she plays strictly by those rules (but just for those people). She's very sympathetic to them, and her "play" with them is a way to guide them back to the light. (And I suspect a lot of these foes are the ones that reform and become less antisocial).

(ETA: Oh, yes, she's definitely adventuresome in the bedroom with other consenting adults....)

How would this work?

Unless the "rules" are that said baddies can only attack WW herself, otherwise Diana is playing along with other people's lives without their knowledge and consent. "Sure, go ahead and kidnap (if not worse) random folks, possibly causing a lifetime of trauma for them, but, I'll just let you have your titlation at mine and other's expense." Sensation Comics for Sex Therapy!

[Awonder]

There are better ways than "submission" to show that Diana is not above regular people.

I agree with this.

[SiegePerilous02]

I have a hard time really seeing it as sexist for the simple reason that I don't care to know anything about Superman's sex life either. These are superhero comics - super heroics is why I buy them. More important, I can't name three people working for either DC or Marvel that could do this well.

Do you really trust DiDio/DC to manage this when they can't even manage any other aspect of WW's world?

Sex and the psychology behind it weren't really a part of Superman's creation the way they were for Wonder Woman, though, so he's incidental to this. There's no getting around that, no matter how much some may try to deny it. People insist on shoving this more outlandish side of her back in the closet, and it kinds of weirds me out, tbh. Super heroics aren't the only thing going on in these books, and nobody is saying bringing this back would diminish everything else anyway. Sex and psychology are a vital part of what made Wonder Woman so unique, especially combined with the mythology and super heroics, and she's often been a dull sanitized version of true self ever since creators tried to distance themselves from Marston's take.

I think Orlando or Seeley could do it, honestly, though I don't trust DiDio either.

[Awonder]

Sex and the psychology behind it weren't really a part of Superman's creation the way they were for Wonder Woman, though, so he's incidental to this. There's no getting around that, no matter how much some may try to deny it. People insist on shoving this more outlandish side of her back in the closet, and it kinds of weirds me out, tbh. Super heroics aren't the only thing going on in these books, and nobody is saying bringing this back would diminish everything else anyway. Sex and psychology are a vital part of what made Wonder Woman so unique, especially combined with the mythology and super heroics, and she's often been a dull sanitized version of true self ever since creators tried to distance themselves from Marston's take.

I think Orlando or Seeley could do it, honestly, though I don't trust DiDio either.

It's not about "closets" or "sanitation," it's simply about avoiding unnecessary pitfalls. DC trips over themselves on a frequent basis when it comes to the Amazons. DC published the infamous PG story "I don't feel worthy of the 'S' so that's why I show off my breasts." And that's from their Cheif Creative Officer. I can't name a single comic I've read from DC or Marvel in the past 15-20 years that has actually handled sex with any depth or maturity.

Even Morrison's attempt to bring the sexy back - what did that actually accomplish? How does it move WW forward and elevate her? Name a single sexual psychology moment from that that comes anywhere near to the quality of his All-Star Superman. It's only memorable because "tee hee, kinky, tee hee."

[SiegePerilous02]

It's not about "closets" or "sanitation," it's simply about avoiding unnecessary pitfalls. DC trips over themselves on a frequent basis when it comes to the Amazons. DC published the infamous PG story "I don't feel worthy of the 'S' so that's why I show off my breasts." And that's from their Cheif Creative Officer. I can't name a single comic I've read from DC or Marvel in the past 15-20 years that has actually handled sex with any depth or maturity.

Even Morrison's attempt to bring the sexy back - what did that actually accomplish? How does it move WW forward? Name a single sexual psychology moment from that comes anywhere near to the quality of his All-Star Superman.

Just because they failed in the past, doesn't mean the idea should be deemed too risky, be shelved and not used in the future. Especially as the current regime may not last forever anyway, and one of their newer batch of writers may be able to execute it better than previous ones. Of my previous suggestions, Orlando wrote Midnighter extensively and didn't shy away from his sex life or flirtatiousness with the likes of Dick Grayson at all. Seeley's series Hack/Slash had him writing a VERY nuanced arc for protagonist Cassie coming to terms with her bisexuality. Not trusting some parts of DC to handle this well isn't the same as it being a bad idea.

As for Morrison's take, I viewed it as an interesting homage/satire/deconstruction of Marston's original stories. Who said it had to "accomplish" anything beyond being a good story? I found the contrast between the forceful enslavement of the Amazons in the beginning and the "therapy" they went through together with their bondage and other forms of sexual expression, taking ownership of their bodies and sexuality, very interesting. Same with the confusion on Diana's part of not knowing why the consensual bondage, master/subject relationship, would be so insensitive to someone like Steve. As for All-Star comparisons, this series of books isn't over, and it wasn't trying to be All-Star.