"Loving Submission" - Yay or Nay

[Awonder]

Just because they failed in the past, doesn't mean the idea should be deemed too risky, be shelved and not used in the future. Especially as the current regime may not last forever anyway, and one of their newer batch of writers may be able to execute it better than previous ones. Of my previous suggestions, Orlando wrote Midnighter extensively and didn't shy away from his sex life or flirtatiousness with the likes of Dick Grayson at all. Seeley's series Hack/Slash had him writing a VERY nuanced arc for protagonist Cassie coming to terms with her bisexuality. Not trusting some parts of DC to handle this well isn't the same as it being a bad idea.

The current "regime" may not last forever, but, they are more likely to last longer than any given author. Even if Seeley comes along and handles it well for 1-2 years, then he's gone. Then, what? Then we are back to DC being in charge of making sure it's handled well. Something they have repeatedly shown a total inability to do.

Moreover, how do we even begin to define handled well in this case? Is it even possible to address this subject without inserting/projecting one's own sexual politics? Call me a cynic, but, yes, I'm doubtful. Odds are we would get much more bad than good.

As for Morrison's take, I viewed it as an interesting homage/satire/deconstruction of Marston's original stories. Who said it had to "accomplish" anything beyond being a good story? I found the contrast between the forceful enslavement of the Amazons in the beginning and the "therapy" they went through together with their bondage and other forms of sexual expression, taking ownership of their bodies and sexuality, very interesting. Same with the confusion on Diana's part of not knowing why the consensual bondage, master/subject relationship, would be so insensitive to someone like Steve. As for All-Star comparisons, this series of books isn't over, and it wasn't trying to be All-Star.

I see nothing of real depth and substance to his "deconstruction." That moment with Steve was handled like a brick. And went nowhere. It wasn't trying to be All-Star and it successed; it will never go down as highly regarded. And, that is due, in large part, to Morrison spending far too much time lost in his shallow "homage."

[Marik Swift]

There are better ways than "submission" to show that Diana is not above regular people.

Except if you consider things like this as loving submission, which I don't:

Superman would do what she did in that picture, as would most of the super noble heroes, such as Flash, etc. I like the idea that Diana takes her peaceful philosophy to an entirely new level (via Loving Submission), otherwise she really isn't doing anything different from her fellow heroes, and in turn, her dichotomy becomes less interesting.

Note, I said Diana. Cause I honestly think most other amazons (Donna, Hippoolyta & Artemis included) should be skeptical of her using their philosophy with anyone outside of the amazons, seeing it unnecessarily risky & even demeaning.

I agree with this.

Enlighten us.

[Awonder]

Superman would do what she did in that picture, as would most of the super noble heroes, such as Flash, etc. I like the idea that Diana takes her peaceful philosophy to an entirely new level (via Loving Submission), otherwise she really isn't doing anything different from her fellow heroes, and in turn, her dichotomy becomes less interesting.

Note, I said Diana. Cause I honestly think most other amazons (Donna, Hippoolyta & Artemis included) should be skeptical of her using their philosophy with anyone outside of the amazons, seeing it unnecessarily risky & even demeaning.

Ok, I'll bite, name a Superman or Flash story where they just stood there letting a powerful foe beat the crap out of them. I'll give you another: The Hiketeia. Diana takes a total stranger into her home, never even asking why she supliccated herself. They are bound together and help each other. How often has Flash or Superman had a murderer living in their house?

I do agree about the other Amazons though.

Enlighten us.

What's to enlighten? It's a good story that dramatically gets to the heart of seeing the good in someone who isn't acting all that good. Gets even better when she gets the GL to take on an apprentice that's of the very species he wanted extinct. And, it doesn't get lost in unnecessary kink and titilation.

[SiegePerilous02]

The current "regime" may not last forever, but, they are more likely to last longer than any given author. Even if Seeley comes along and handles it well for 1-2 years, then he's gone. Then, what? Then we are back to DC being in charge of making sure it's handled well. Something they have repeatedly shown a total inability to do.

Moreover, how do we even begin to define handled well in this case? Is it even possible to address this subject without inserting/projecting one's own sexual politics? Call me a cynic, but, yes, I'm doubtful. Odds are we would get much more bad than good.

Well if Seeley handles it well and then leaves, we are stuck with an author that is free to go in another direction or, worst case, handles it poorly. And you know what? We (and the character) have survived poor takes before, we're inevitably going to have to do it again. And if the subsequent handling of this aspect of her is really poorly done, that doesn't erase a good run that does it well. I would continue to enjoy Seeley's (or whoever's) run on its own merits and not wish the whole thing was left off the table just because it would be handled poorly in the future.

As for the bolded: we can't, which is what makes art and the feelings it elicits so interesting.

I see nothing of real depth and substance to his "deconstruction." That moment with Steve was handled like a brick. And went nowhere. It wasn't trying to be All-Star and it successed; it will never go down as highly regarded. And, that is due, in large part, to Morrison spending far too much time lost in his shallow "homage."

To each his own, I guess. I found plenty to enjoy in the book, and unless you have a time machine, you have no way of knowing if the whole series of books will be as successful as All-Star or not. Even if parts of it were shallow, I tend to favor Marston's Wonder Woman above all other takes anyway, so even on an aesthetic level, this book pleased me more than majority of others.

[Agent Z]

I suppose this scene from Rucka's original run works





I find that Diana tends to be more willing to follow the law and understand the opinions of the people it was meant to protect than most of DC's heroes.

[phonogram12]

In what way did Morrison screw it up, in your opinion? I know many people didn't like the overall story, because they don't agree with Marston's take on the character, but as for the Loving Submission bits itself, I've seen no legitimate complaints addressed to it specifically.

I will never understand people who don't like Marston's take on his own creation. I just don't get it.

I want it back. It shouldn't be present in every story, and it needs to be handled a certain way to work, but it's not worth getting rid of it. I don't like the idea of kink shaming Wonder Woman. I read one defense of Earth One that said something along the lines of "censoring or sanitizing a woman's sexuality for something more 'pure' is every bit as sexist as going over the top with the cheesecake" and I have to agree. It's one aspect of the whole that is Diana. Diana's a regal princess, a peace seeking diplomat, a badass warrior who is the best melee fighter in the DCU, compassionate to her enemies, and is kinky, fun and experimental in the bedroom with other consenting adults. I don't want any of those to go away.

Me neither. More interesting layers need to be added to the character, not less.

[Baseman]

Its not about liking it as much as seeing it as more trouble than its worth sorry to say.It a take thats very few can do well.

[Agent Z]

I will never understand people who don't like Marston's take on his own creation. I just don't get it.



Me neither. More interesting layers need to be added to the character, not less.

Just because Marston created the character doesn't mean his take is beyond reproach. Liefeld may have created Deadpool, but his take isn't the one the movie used.

Interesting layers should be added. Some just don't think this "loving submission" is one of them. Especially given society has yet to completely shake off the perception That women are meant to be submissive

[SiegePerilous02]

Its not about liking it as much as seeing it as more trouble than its worth sorry to say.It a take thats very few can do well.

Yeah but the alternatives are seldom that interesting so its not like we have much to lose of some writers wanna take the risk.

I think Rucka is the only one who can write a Perez style Diana As an adult and make it engaging.

[SiegePerilous02]

Just because Marston created the character doesn't mean his take is beyond reproach. Liefeld may have created Deadpool, but his take isn't the one the movie used.

Interesting layers should be added. Some just don't think this "loving submission" is one of them. Especially given society has yet to completely shake off the perception That women are meant to be submissive

Except Deadpool was not as creative or interesting until further writers distanced him from the original incarnation. Wonder Woman has rarely, If ever, been as popular as her original stories by her creator. She got a resurgence with Perez but that created just as many problems as it solved.

Nobody is advocating for women to be portrayed as submissive and Diana was never submissive in the Golden Age to begin with. It actually argued that men would be better off being the submissive ones.

[Baseman]

Yeah but the alternatives are seldom that interesting so its not like we have much to lose of some writers wanna take the risk.

I think Rucka is the only one who can write a Perez style Diana As an adult and make it engaging.

Well that depends on whether or not your willing to deal with the fallout from tieing(or reattaching in this case) bondage themes on a character thats supposed to be a role model to little girls.

[phonogram12]

Just because Marston created the character doesn't mean his take is beyond reproach. Liefeld may have created Deadpool, but his take isn't the one the movie used.

I actually vastly prefer Nicenza and Liefield's take on the character than how he's been used over the past decade or so, tbh. I also thought the movie was vastly overrated, but I supposed that's neither here nor there as well.

Interesting layers should be added. Some just don't think this "loving submission" is one of them. Especially given society has yet to completely shake off the perception That women are meant to be submissive

Then why not shake up people's ideas about 'loving submission' then? Why avoid something instead of facing it head on and subvert such perceptions? Why play it safe?

[SiegePerilous02]

Well that depends on whether or not your willing to deal with the Implications on tieing bondage themes on a character thats supposed to be a role model to little girls.

She wasn't created just for little girls. Nor was it advocating that women deserved to be tied up or whatever. Wonder Woman always cast off the chains that were oppressive. If she wants to engage in bondage as an expression of her own sexuality, either as a dom or a sub, saying she can't because it's wrong is frankly kind of backwards. Something like "Sunstone" would be a good model.

[Awonder]

Well if Seeley handles it well and then leaves, we are stuck with an author that is free to go in another direction or, worst case, handles it poorly. And you know what? We (and the character) have survived poor takes before, we're inevitably going to have to do it again. And if the subsequent handling of this aspect of her is really poorly done, that doesn't erase a good run that does it well. I would continue to enjoy Seeley's (or whoever's) run on its own merits and not wish the whole thing was left off the table just because it would be handled poorly in the future.

I think you are underestimating just how destructive a single story can be. Amazons Attack was only six issues written a decade ago, yet, to many that is the perception of the Amazons. Made all the worse by Azzarello. Building something is far harder than destroying it. Take DC's treatment of Starfire for example. How often does she seem like an actual woman who owns her sexuality for herself, and how often does it come across as simple-minded titilation for a jr high boys locker room? I can't tell you how many times I've seen people call her a slut for that one issue of Red Hood and the Outlaws.

To each his own, I guess. I found plenty to enjoy in the book, and unless you have a time machine, you have no way of knowing if the whole series of books will be as successful as All-Star or not. Even if parts of it were shallow, I tend to favor Marston's Wonder Woman above all other takes anyway, so even on an aesthetic level, this book pleased me more than majority of others.

I'm not debating whether or not it was enjoyable, but I am saying it's nowhere near as critically well received as many of his other works. All-Star Superman doesn't need the second volume to make the first one a quality read. The quality of WW Earth One shouldn't need the rest of the series to really standout either.

Morrison has written WW for years. He also stated that he was researching the entire history of feminism. Yet, his WW project still reads as if it was written over a weekend. And it feels much less like a woman's voice than it does men writing women. Is Seeley going to put in that much work? Or are you just assuming he's naturally great at handling complex and delicate matters such as this with perfect precision?

Eta- If I were in charge, my policy would be simple: Don't go there. It's not needed. But, if you have one heck of a proposal, I may make an exception. Just be prepared for rewrites and/or rejection.

[Awonder]

I will never understand people who don't like Marston's take on his own creation. I just don't get it.

The thread isn't about Marston. It's about which ideas to use today (specifically "loving submission"). And how to make it work going forward.

Me neither. More interesting layers need to be added to the character, not less.

And how do you see this "layer" playing out?

Then why not shake up people's ideas about 'loving submission' then? Why avoid something instead of facing it head on and subvert such perceptions? Why play it safe?

Do you think we're all going to agree on what is a good "shake up" and what is not?

A basic pro/con analysis:
(Potential Upside) X (Odds of Happening)
-(Potential Downside) X (Odds of Happening)

Which is greater?

Eta- Here's my favorite part - those of us more on the side of saying Marston's "loving submission" isn't needed, yet, can still be seen in other ways have given multiple examples. Those of you saying you want to bring it back have yet to give a good example of how this adds those "layers" you speak of so highly. Just saying.