"Loving Submission" - Yay or Nay

[SiegePerilous02]

This mindset is exactly why there's more downside than up. Shaking things up just to do so is the shallow, sensationalistic spectacle that happens quite frequently with DC and Marvel. This is their bread and butter. And it's exactly what "loving submission" does not need. There was no depth or layers or an ounce of real substance to the rape and murder of Sue; it was all a "shake up" to get a sales bump and "people talking." Forgive me for wanting better for WW.

Shake ups are historically how DC and Marvel produce their best stuff, when they do them well. It's how the entire Silver Age was invented. Without the shake up of sidelining all the X-Men except Cyclops and replacing them with a more diverse cast of adult characters, that property would have languished in obscurity. If the risks aren't taken, nothing better will come about.

I want better for WW too. The rape and murder of Sue was atrocious and I will never stop hating that comic...but the current people in charge of DC also grabbed plenty of positive headlines (even in mainstream media) by bringing back Batwoman as a gay woman. There's just as much good as bad with them. In Johns' case, he seems capable of learning lessons. His writing of Diana improved towards the end of the New 52, and he knew enough to reach out to Greg Rucka and bring him back to the character.

Because "it might be good" is so convincing?

If we're talking about supplication to Aphrodite, Athena, submission to mom, sisters, then, sure, we're on the same page. But, beyond that? How would SM/WW really have been better, more layered (as you guys claim), if it had a brief glimpse of Clark binding Diana to the bed? That book would still be mediocre at best.

Well, first: who says Diana would be the one tied up?

Second of all, explicit graphic sex scenes aren't necessarily what we're talking (or all that we're talking about). Implicit sexual subtext mixed with psychological themes is where her original stories were most interesting. This very interesting series of articles reviewing each of Marston and Peters' original Wonder Woman issues, "Bound to Blog," sums up a lot of this better than I could, while also acknowledging how bizarre and dated it is in several ways. This issue, #16, is interpreted by the author as tackling themes of rape, incest and other sexual traumas, coming to terms with sexual desires that may be deemed abnormal, and rejecting the Madonna/Whore complex for the BS that it is:

http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/200...nder-woman-16/

Or the Queen Atomia story, which examines the homoerotic fantasies of young girls and their dolls:

http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/201...nder-woman-21/

Who decides? Don't give me that, 'cause you've been championing the upside this whole time just as I'm saying there's more downside. Ultimately, it's those in charge of the character at DC that decide, and, given their track record? No, I don't trust them. Why would I?

But, how does that eliminate "hoping for interesting WW stories"? Because an interesting WW can't exist without bondage games? If you don't know the kinky details of your friends' sex lives, does that mean you think your friends are not interesting and/or layered people?

Where I disagree is that there is more downside, not that there is no downside at all. I just think we're all in the same position: it could go either way, and we have no way of knowing how it will turn out.

We haven't had many interesting WW stories between Marston and now, IMO. The Silver and Bronze Ages were a waste land of mediocrity and/or crap. Perez was great in many ways, kind of crappy in others, and then post-Crisis canon as a whole was standard fare. Rucka could run with Perez's foundation and produce something great, but not many could. Historically, we have plenty of examples that moving WW away from her original mold hasn't done her many favors. Morrison once said that post-Marston Diana was like a "combination of Mary Tyler Moore and the Virgin Mary that wasn't even appealing to girls," and while I don't 100% agree with that statement, I don't think he's completely wrong either.

Well, Paquette's art is the one thing about the book that was truly stellar. But, a few tweets from women are not going to turn the story itself into a book anywhere near as highly recommended as All-Star Superman.

The tweets show that it isn't a black/white issue. Just because some women may find it sexist or too much like a man's fantasy or whatever, other women found it interesting and non-offensive, showing a diverse set of opinions instead of the book being objectively terrible.

It never was going to be as highly recommended as All-Star. Putting aside that is isn't as polished to begin with, All-Star is a straight up adventure story paying homage to the best Superman era and distilling it to its essence. Paying homage to Wonder Woman's best era (it ain't the Silver Age or anything that came after) comes with more controversial subject matter that isn't as easy to recommend to just anybody.

[Awonder]

There's just as much good as bad with them.

No, there really isn't. They do superheroes pretty well, that is where they shine. But, they don't do mature subject matter well at all. Their track record stinks. Even in trying to manufacturer the new 52 into a new Silver Age, what success it had was short lived, largely because the whole thing was poorly planned. That's what they do. Throw spectacle out and see if it works. That can work for spectacle, but it's a terrible approach for mature matters.

Even your Batwoman example is funny given that they didn't just screw that one up once, chasing Rucka away; they did it again chasing JH Williams and Blackman away, too.

"Bound to Blog"

You give me a blog? A blog about an author that won't be writing WW any time soon? No one at DC has shown they really know what to do with Marston - that's the main problem. There's no solid direction from those directing traffic.

Morrison once said that post-Marston Diana was like a "combination of Mary Tyler Moore and the Virgin Mary that wasn't even appealing to girls," and while I don't 100% agree with that statement, I don't think he's completely wrong either.

Again, I point out that Morrison himself spent YEARS both writing the character and researching this idea. Who else is going to put that much work into this? And, yet Morrison's Earth One did what? There's no real depth to it. No real complex layers. It's just kind of there with a few good moments. And very pretty pictures. He's not even consistent with his themes in a single volume. One minute Diana is doing all she can to rebel and force a break in tradition by not submitting, the next she's "ok, I submit, now. But, really I just want to know who my daddy is"?

DC can't possibly turn this into more spectacle? It's not like they would make the Amazons baby killers, right? They even made Donna a mass murderer!

The tweets show that it isn't a black/white issue.

No offense, but the tweets don't show anything, since they aren't here, I don't know what they actually said. I do know that I never said Earth One was objectively terrible. It is objectively not highly regarded like his other work. Adding a bunch of bondage did not convince the masses that WW was finally an interesting character.

I wouldn't recommend it to anyone that isn't a die-hard WW fan, not because it contains "controversial subject matter," but because it doesn't do so very well. It's not offensive like the rape and murder of Sue; it even seems to try to do well and has a few good moments here and there. It's just very underwhelming and rather poorly developed that ultimately doesn't do much. Except look very nice. Truly beautiful art. Just not enough substance.

[SiegePerilous02]

No, there really isn't. They do superheroes pretty well, that is where they shine. But, they don't do mature subject matter well at all. Their track record stinks. Even in trying to manufacturer the new 52 into a new Silver Age, what success it had was short lived, largely because the whole thing was poorly planned. That's what they do. Throw spectacle out and see if it works. That can work for spectacle, but it's a terrible approach for mature matters.

Even your Batwoman example is funny given that they didn't just screw that one up once, chasing Rucka away; they did it gain chasing JH Williams and Blackman away, too.

So let's bring this back to Batwoman: when you say they don't handle mature subject matter very well, it also makes it sounds like you're throwing the writers themselves under the bus. Yeah DC's editorial screwed the pooch and drove Rucka away. But does that mean the story Rucka wrote about Kate is trash? Should it not be enjoyed on its own merits just because we know some behind the scenes crap? DC published it and is keeping it in trade, and Batwoman means a lot to a lot of different people.

And she's still around. She just got a new ongoing written by a queer woman. Will DC screw things up again? Possibly. But I'm not gonna not support such a book if it interests me, because that will just speed things along.

Like if we get a good loving submission story, should my enjoyment of it not count if a subsequent writer drops the ball? Seems pretty silly.

You give me a blog? A blog about an author that won't be writing WW any time soon? No one at DC has shown they really know what to do with Marston - that's the main problem. There's no solid direction from those directing traffic.

I linked to the blog in the hopes that maybe you would be open minded enough to see where people are coming from with their appreciation of Marston's themes instead of dismissing it as us wanting Diana to be tied up and spanked by Clark or Steve.

Again, I point out that Morrison himself spent YEARS both writing the character and researching this idea. Who else is going to put that much work into this? And, yet Morrison's Earth One did what? There's no real depth to it. No real complex layers. It's just kind of there with a few good moments. And very pretty pictures. He's not even consistent with his themes in a single volume. One minute Diana is doing all she can to rebel and force a break in tradition by not submitting, the next she's "ok, I submit, now. But, really I just want to know who my daddy is"?

DC can't possibly turn this into more spectacle? It's not like they would make the Amazons baby killers, right?

Diana rebels to escape the island and go on an adventure, and then submits to the Amazons when it becomes clear that they will fight to bring her back, and she wants to avoid unnecessary violence. One of the Holliday Girls says she excited to see an ass kicking and is disappointed when it doesn't happen, which is meta commentary on Morrison's part about how this subverts the story telling conventions of superhero comics. Which is what Wonder Woman was designed to do. Her questioning about Hercules comes after her main objective, which is to get the Amazons to restore Steve and the other victims of Medusa, see the merits of Man's World through the testimonies of men like Steve and women like Etta, and to let her leave the nest and discover it for herself. And she accomplishes this goal without blood shed. Sounds like a good Wonder Woman story to me, and there really isn't any inconsistency in it.

[Awonder]

So let's bring this back to Batwoman: when you say they don't handle mature subject matter very well, it also makes it sounds like you're throwing the writers themselves under the bus. Yeah DC's editorial screwed the pooch and drove Rucka away. But does that mean the story Rucka wrote about Kate is trash? Should it not be enjoyed on its own merits just because we know some behind the scenes crap? DC published it and is keeping it in trade, and Batwoman means a lot to a lot of different people.

And she's still around. She just got a new ongoing written by a queer woman. Will DC screw things up again? Possibly. But I'm not gonna not support such a book if it interests me, because that will just speed things along.

Like if we get a good loving submission story, should my enjoyment of it not count if a subsequent writer drops the ball? Seems pretty silly.

You're absolutely right that I'm not giving the writers enough credit for the good work they do. I'm not throwing them under the bus, but who won the Rucka v Editorial Batwoman power struggle? Who wins nearly all the time? The writers have little to no power here. It's not that I think an individual writer can't have a good idea or two. It's that I don't really trust DC to know when to pick a good idea and when to say no. They don't have the track record to trust.

I linked to the blog in the hopes that maybe you would be open minded enough to see where people are coming from with their appreciation of Marston's themes instead of dismissing it as us wanting Diana to be tied up and spanked by Clark or Steve.

Ah, assumptions? Tsk tsk. I am open-minded and can appreciate much of Marston. It's not him I don't trust.

Eta- I'm less interested in a blog, because I'm not discussing this with the blog's author. My interest in discussing this with you is in hearing what YOU have to say, not someone else. That doesn't make me close-minded.

Diana rebels to escape the island and go on an adventure, and then submits to the Amazons when it becomes clear that they will fight to bring her back, and she wants to avoid unnecessary violence. One of the Holliday Girls says she excited to see an ass kicking and is disappointed when it doesn't happen, which is meta commentary on Morrison's part about how this subverts the story telling conventions of superhero comics. Which is what Wonder Woman was designed to do. Her questioning about Hercules comes after her main objective, which is to get the Amazons to restore Steve and the other victims of Medusa, see the merits of Man's World through the testimonies of men like Steve and women like Etta, and to let her leave the nest and discover it for herself. And she accomplishes this goal without blood shed. Sounds like a good Wonder Woman story to me, and there really isn't any inconsistency in it.

Sure, if you say so. That must be why it's so highly regarded. Oh wait, ...

Eta- Note, I'm all for Morrison's desire to pen a WW story that, as you say, "subverts story telling conventions." Her not fighting the Amazons was fine. But, that moment is problematic not because of her, but because of the not so great depiction of Hippolyta and the Amazons sending Medusa and a war party to fetch Diana. It's a lot like Azzarello's approach, make the other women look bad to make Diana look good. Well, that's not my favorite approach for Diana's mom and friends. Just imagine Alfred or Pa Kent sending MEDUSA out to look for a lost Bruce or Clark.

And the big climax of the whole thing is just another "Who's your daddy?" A question that DC can't seem to decide on what they want. Just yet another poorly executed "shake up" to "get people talking" that never really got many people talking because it was unremarkable.

[numberthirty]

I agree with that in theory; are you thinking of any specific example during Azzarello's run or just generally speaking?

Diana breaking it down for The First Born in the final issue of that run.

[Awonder]

Diana breaking it down for The First Born in the final issue of that run.

What she said was nice; but, I don't think it really fit well in the moment.

[SiegePerilous02]

Ah, assumptions? Tsk tsk. I am open-minded and can appreciate much of Marston. It's not him I don't trust.

Eta- I'm less interested in a blog, because I'm not discussing this with the blog's author. My interest in discussing this with you is in hearing what YOU have to say, not someone else. That doesn't make me close-minded.

Yeah, that was worded much more harshly than it should of been. Apologies.

For me, the way the themes are conveyed in the Marston stories are just executed in a way more interesting manner than the majority of Wonder Woman stories. That includes the sexual subtext, but that's not all. In general, the more colorful and fun way the stories were written just convey their intentions in a more engaging manner, being adventure stories with interesting psychological components that can be deciphered, but also enjoyed on a surface level. The problem with Marston pouring so much of his unique views into his creation is that, once he's taken out of the equation, nobody else can really replicate it and she suffers as a result. She doesn't have much to fall back on, aside from preaching about issues (can be done well like Rucka having her write a book, but more often than not is very boring), some general female empowerment themes, dealing with the latest Olympian BS or wrestling with a manticore or something. Her world from the Golden Age could rival Superman's in terms of color, strangeness and variety, and is even tailor made to tackle more adult issues than his is.

I honestly don't know how to get her back on track with some of this stuff, because (as we both agree) the people currently in charge of DC don't inspire confidence. But that doesn't change what I want from WW in general.

Eta- Note, I'm all for Morrison's desire to pen a WW story that, as you say, "subverts story telling conventions." Her not fighting the Amazons was fine. But, that moment is problematic not because of her, but because of the not so great depiction of Hippolyta and the Amazons sending Medusa and a war party to fetch Diana. It's a lot like Azzarello's approach, make the other women look bad to make Diana look good. Well, that's not my favorite approach for Diana's mom and friends. Just imagine Alfred or Pa Kent sending MEDUSA out to look for a lost Bruce or Clark.

And the big climax of the whole thing is just another "Who's your daddy?" A question that DC can't seem to decide on what they want. Just yet another poorly executed "shake up" to "get people talking" that never really got many people talking because it was unremarkable.

I don't know if I agree that he portrayed them too badly, he just didn't treat them with kid gloves. Marston's Amazons genuinely believed women were superior to men, and if he wanted to confront that mind set instead of changing it, they're not going to be portrayed as forward thinking in that regard. Especially compared to women like Etta who actually live in Man's World. Their attitude towards Etta isn't without precedent either; the one plus sized Amazon we got in the Golden Age was named Fatsis, and Mala thought of her as a “tub of lard” while the rest of the Amazons were just great at everything while being glamorous super models. Etta calling out that attitude is actually pretty feminist on Morrison's part, he just has it coming from someone who isn't an Amazon.

As for their aggressiveness...eh, they largely keep to themselves on the island and don't bother anybody. They certainly don't seem to have a history of going out and murdering innocent men, which is a step way too far for me too. They only go out to the outside world (implied to be their first foray) only because their Princess is in strange, possibly hostile territory. They only take out enemy combatants: if you look at the art, Medusa only freezes the soldiers while the Amazons make no moves to attack the cowering civilians. The effect of Medusa's gaze is reversible too; once Steve is proven to be trust worthy with their secret, Hippolyta lets him live without a fuss and the rest of the victims are restored.

The choice of Medusa isn't accidental either. In Greek mythology, Medusa was the embodiment of female power, petrifying a man with her very gaze. The story of Perseus is about the patriarchy stomping out female power and making it a tool by beheading it. The Amazons releasing Medusa as the embodiment of terrifying female might is actually really cool.

I feel like the Azzarello run coming out took the heat off of this in many ways. The bomb has already been dropped that Diana has a father, and the New 52 Amazons are even more aggressive then they are here. If this was released as the New 52 incarnation of Wonder Woman, it probably would have sparked much more controversy. But at the same time, I feel like it'd be much easier to salvage these Amazons as sympathetic because at least they (seemingly) don't have the blood of male children on their hands. And whatever you may think of his writing of her, at least Morrison has a clear interest in Hippolyta and doesn't sideline her like the New 52 did.

[Aioros22]

Hell to the Yay.


Signed:

Someone who is open minded and doesn`t care about fandom`s business about who gets to be tied or spanked. Let everybody take turns.

[Awonder]

Yeah, that was worded much more harshly than it should of been. Apologies.

No worries.

For me, the way the themes are conveyed in the Marston stories are just executed in a way more interesting manner than the majority of Wonder Woman stories. That includes the sexual subtext, but that's not all. In general, the more colorful and fun way the stories were written just convey their intentions in a more engaging manner, being adventure stories with interesting psychological components that can be deciphered, but also enjoyed on a surface level. The problem with Marston pouring so much of his unique views into his creation is that, once he's taken out of the equation, nobody else can really replicate it and she suffers as a result. She doesn't have much to fall back on, aside from preaching about issues (can be done well like Rucka having her write a book, but more often than not is very boring), some general female empowerment themes, dealing with the latest Olympian BS or wrestling with a manticore or something. Her world from the Golden Age could rival Superman's in terms of color, strangeness and variety, and is even tailor made to tackle more adult issues than his is.

The Marston/Peter WW was truly unique, colorful and lively even when dealing with some mature themes. But, I just don't think you can re-manufacture that genie. That doesn't mean she doesn't have anything to fall back on, but, it will take some work. Just as she doesn't have an arch-enemy on the level of Lex and Joker. I'd love to see them do a little more with Reformation Island, and you can even incorporate some "loving submission" there. As I said earlier, I wouldn't put a complete ban on it, it would just need to be a very good script.

I honestly don't know how to get her back on track with some of this stuff, because (as we both agree) the people currently in charge of DC don't inspire confidence. But that doesn't change what I want from WW in general.

It's not just DC I don't trust, I wouldn't trust Marvel either. Sensationalistic spectacle sells. That's the market. Everything gets turned into a spectacle. Heroes acting way out of character just so they can fight each other. Superboy, of all characters, became a mass murderer. Indie comics can do more, and I think the right creative could potentially do more with it under those circumstances.

I don't know if I agree that he portrayed them too badly, he just didn't treat them with kid gloves. Marston's Amazons genuinely believed women were superior to men, and if he wanted to confront that mind set instead of changing it, they're not going to be portrayed as forward thinking in that regard. Especially compared to women like Etta who actually live in Man's World. Their attitude towards Etta isn't without precedent either; the one plus sized Amazon we got in the Golden Age was named Fatsis, and Mala thought of her as a “tub of lard” while the rest of the Amazons were just great at everything while being glamorous super models. Etta calling out that attitude is actually pretty feminist on Morrison's part, he just has it coming from someone who isn't an Amazon.

As for their aggressiveness...eh, they largely keep to themselves on the island and don't bother anybody. They certainly don't seem to have a history of going out and murdering innocent men, which is a step way too far for me too. They only go out to the outside world (implied to be their first foray) only because their Princess is in strange, possibly hostile territory. They only take out enemy combatants: if you look at the art, Medusa only freezes the soldiers while the Amazons make no moves to attack the cowering civilians. The effect of Medusa's gaze is reversible too; once Steve is proven to be trust worthy with their secret, Hippolyta lets him live without a fuss and the rest of the victims are restored.

The choice of Medusa isn't accidental either. In Greek mythology, Medusa was the embodiment of female power, petrifying a man with her very gaze. The story of Perseus is about the patriarchy stomping out female power and making it a tool by beheading it. The Amazons releasing Medusa as the embodiment of terrifying female might is actually really cool.

I feel like the Azzarello run coming out took the heat off of this in many ways. The bomb has already been dropped that Diana has a father, and the New 52 Amazons are even more aggressive then they are here. If this was released as the New 52 incarnation of Wonder Woman, it probably would have sparked much more controversy. But at the same time, I feel like it'd be much easier to salvage these Amazons as sympathetic because at least they (seemingly) don't have the blood of male children on their hands. And whatever you may think of his writing of her, at least Morrison has a clear interest in Hippolyta and doesn't sideline her like the New 52 did.

Saying Morrison did better than Azzarello is not setting the bar very high.

While it's not my preference, I'm ok with the Amazons being arrogant, even aggressive when the time is right. But, Morrison's Hippolyta is needlessly an idiot. She has an all-seeing mirror, but apparently can't bother to see a single good thing happening? Instead, all it takes one chubby sassy girl and a soldier that doesn't sound like he has actually spent five minutes in the military to change her mind? That's the very definition of plot-forced stupid.

Even the choice of a father (again with the needless injecting of men into what is meant to be a feminist narrative) was clunky and poorly developed, just thrown in at the end. For all that research he said he did, it just didn't feel like it.

[SiegePerilous02]

Saying Morrison did better than Azzarello is not setting the bar very high.

While it's not my preference, I'm ok with the Amazons being arrogant, even aggressive when the time is right. But, Morrison's Hippolyta is needlessly an idiot. She has an all-seeing mirror, but apparently can't bother to see a single good thing happening? Instead, all it takes one chubby sassy girl and a soldier that doesn't sound like he has actually spent five minutes in the military to change her mind? That's the very definition of plot-forced stupid.

Even the choice of a father (again with the needless injecting of men into what is meant to be a feminist narrative) was clunky and poorly developed, just thrown in at the end. For all that research he said he did, it just didn't feel like it.

No, I guess it isn't Still though, it overall worked for me.

I don't think Hippolyta WANTED to see any positives in her magic mirror. She was very set in her ways, as were the Amazons as a whole, which is only natural considering they've been isolated and doing the same things for 3000 years. Considering the stuff we've been up to since they left, I can't say I blame her. The big difference here is that Etta and Steve aren't people she's watching in a mirror, they're actually physically present before her, which has never happened since they came to the island. She also doesn't completely abandon her view that Man's World is sucktastic either. After the Hercules revelation, she still tries to get herself banished and make Diana queen of the Amazons, because she is still so afraid that her daughter will be hurt. Thankfully, Nubia tells her to cut the crap.

Injecting a man into the narrative to explain her conception isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as that's as far as it goes. It's unavoidable if they want to ditch the clay birth and make it a natural pregnancy. I think the clay birth became a problem in the post-Crisis canon with the over emphasis on it and having Circe turn her back into clay and all that crap. It contributed to Morrison and co thinking she doesn't seem like a real woman, because she wasn't conceived like the women who are supposed to relate to her. That's not the same as taking the focus away from a female driven narrative. I think the fact that Hercules is such an afterthought and the scene is more about the issues between mother and daughter shows that the female narrative is still present. He doesn't take over the whole plot the way Zeus does. I also favor him as the father anyway, because he's already tied so heavily to the WW mythos origins, and the real world myth is the reason Hippolyta is well known to begin with.

I've come to dislike the clay birth a bit, so I won't be too thrilled if Rucka brings it back. I don't like Zeus either. But as long future stories just shut the hell up about how she was conceived altogether and do other stuff, I can deal with it.

[Batarang]

''Loving Submission''... I read the thread name and i was like giggidy giggidy... lol

[Awonder]

No, I guess it isn't Still though, it overall worked for me.

Overall, it worked for me, too. But, given that it's Morrison, and given that it took so long, it was a bit of a let down to just get an above average story instead of something as special as All-Star Superman. And, I think it could use more polish.

I don't think Hippolyta WANTED to see any positives in her magic mirror. She was very set in her ways, as were the Amazons as a whole, which is only natural considering they've been isolated and doing the same things for 3000 years. Considering the stuff we've been up to since they left, I can't say I blame her. The big difference here is that Etta and Steve aren't people she's watching in a mirror, they're actually physically present before her, which has never happened since they came to the island. She also doesn't completely abandon her view that Man's World is sucktastic either. After the Hercules revelation, she still tries to get herself banished and make Diana queen of the Amazons, because she is still so afraid that her daughter will be hurt. Thankfully, Nubia tells her to cut the crap.

That still doesn't really work within the story. First, they haven't been doing the same thing for 3,000 years, as, thankfully, these Amazons are awesome scientists. And while I totally get that our world has a lot of crap, did she specifically tell her all-seeing mirror, "Don't show me anything good!"? If she's so set in her ways, meeting Etta and Steve for five minutes isn't going to change anything. Neither said or did anything remarkable.

Even her trying to make Diana queen to get her to stay was a storytelling dud that lasted 30 seconds because no one believed her including her. It's a moment where Morrison tried to work in some "loving submission" as a ruler serving her people, but it was a dud because it wasn't developed nor explored at all. It's just thrown in at the end. The idea is good, but executed unremarkably.

Injecting a man into the narrative to explain her conception isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as that's as far as it goes. It's unavoidable if they want to ditch the clay birth and make it a natural pregnancy. I think the clay birth became a problem in the post-Crisis canon with the over emphasis on it and having Circe turn her back into clay and all that crap. It contributed to Morrison and co thinking she doesn't seem like a real woman, because she wasn't conceived like the women who are supposed to relate to her. That's not the same as taking the focus away from a female driven narrative. I think the fact that Hercules is such an afterthought and the scene is more about the issues between mother and daughter shows that the female narrative is still present. He doesn't take over the whole plot the way Zeus does. I also favor him as the father anyway, because he's already tied so heavily to the WW mythos origins, and the real world myth is the reason Hippolyta is well known to begin with.

You're right that having male characters, including a father, isn't inherently bad. But, much comes down to how it's handled. I don't have a problem with the general idea of Hercules as Diana's father - in a different story. In this one, you have a woman, not getting pregnant from rape, but choosing artifical insemination from her rapist. Really?

It's made worse by the fact that Hippolyta has some sort of access and relationship to Medusa - that embodiment of female power you mentioned. She could have made an army of Amazon-Gorgon hybrids for her "revenge." All female and extremely powerful. And, in doing so, she would have ended Hercules' legacy.

I've met a few women who got pregnant from rape; but, none of them would CHOOSE the rapist as the father of their child. Not even for revenge.

Edit - Overall, I think Azzarello handled Zeus as Diana's father in a very overbearing fashion. But, to his credit, he sort of tried to work in mutual "loving submission" into Diana's conception.

I've come to dislike the clay birth a bit, so I won't be too thrilled if Rucka brings it back. I don't like Zeus either. But as long future stories just shut the hell up about how she was conceived altogether and do other stuff, I can deal with it.

Sure, any circumstances of her birth is less Diana's story and more her mother's. It's because Diana's mother is important - and mothers are extremely neglected in super hero stories - that is why Diana's birth is important. But, whatever the circumstances, it shouldn't be the ongoing focus. The story, Diana, Hippolyta, and friends, all need to move forward.

[spirit2011]

About the Father discussion, It is really needed?

or it comes because men need to be everywhere and women not needing them to have a kid make them insecure?

For me it leans forward the 2nd, because the character was just fine without it.

Wonder Woman has to be dangerous, has to make people not confortable. That is why these days people are questioning how much a feminist icon she is

The tweets show that it isn't a black/white issue. Just because some women may find it sexist or too much like a man's fantasy or whatever, other women found it interesting and non-offensive, showing a diverse set of opinions instead of the book being objectively terrible.

It never was going to be as highly recommended as All-Star. Putting aside that is isn't as polished to begin with, All-Star is a straight up adventure story paying homage to the best Superman era and distilling it to its essence. Paying homage to Wonder Woman's best era (it ain't the Silver Age or anything that came after) comes with more controversial subject matter that isn't as easy to recommend to just anybody.

It could be just as recommend as all-star. You just trying to make something really awful sounds better and dismissing important voices of women.
that just not a good thing to do

[SiegePerilous02]

You're right that having male characters, including a father, isn't inherently bad. But, much comes down to how it's handled. I don't have a problem with the general idea of Hercules as Diana's father - in a different story. In this one, you have a woman, not getting pregnant from rape, but choosing artifical insemination from her rapist. Really?

It's made worse by the fact that Hippolyta has some sort of access and relationship to Medusa - that embodiment of female power you mentioned. She could have made an army of Amazon-Gorgon hybrids for her "revenge." All female and extremely powerful. And, in doing so, she would have ended Hercules' legacy.

I've met a few women who got pregnant from rape; but, none of them would CHOOSE the rapist as the father of their child. Not even for revenge.

I think the book itself is ambiguous and lends itself to the interpretation that Hercules raped her. But I believe Paquette said there was no rape, and I think it can be interpreted as not being present. Hercules says "it's all play, remember?" which kind of makes me believe they were doing some kind of kinky bondage role play (because of course they did) and Hercules took her Girdle while she was vulnerable and enslaved her. Rape for Hippolyta and the Amazons is clearly on the agenda for Herc and his men, but she kills him before it can happen. If we take what she said at face value, Hippolyta creating a child isn't coming initially from a place of love. She loves the irony of using Herc's supreme seed of masculinity to create a race of hyper strong female warriors. She eventually let her rage go and went to the opposite extreme, wanting to coddle and protect Diana at all costs.

It's very bizarre, and honestly? I think I would prefer Hippolyta and Hercules sleeping together and then he betrays her, and have Diana just be conceived as a result of that. The fact that we can never give Diana a father without it being weird or sketchy in some way is really irritating.

[spirit2011]

I think the book itself is ambiguous and lends itself to the interpretation that Hercules raped her. But I believe Paquette said there was no rape, and I think it can be interpreted as not being present. Hercules says "it's all play, remember?" which kind of makes me believe they were doing some kind of kinky bondage role play (because of course they did) and Hercules took her Girdle while she was vulnerable and enslaved her. Rape for Hippolyta and the Amazons is clearly on the agenda for Herc and his men, but she kills him before it can happen. If we take what she said at face value, Hippolyta creating a child isn't coming initially from a place of love. She loves the irony of using Herc's supreme seed of masculinity to create a race of hyper strong female warriors. She eventually let her rage go and went to the opposite extreme, wanting to coddle and protect Diana at all costs.

It's very bizarre, and honestly? I think I would prefer Hippolyta and Hercules sleeping together and then he betrays her, and have Diana just be conceived as a result of that. The fact that we can never give Diana a father without it being weird or sketchy in some way is really irritating.

Because it is how it should be. Dina just don't need a father, then when they try to have Diana having a father it just feels wrong.

Like a woman having her child with her own rapist? screw that

woman having her kid sleeping with a married man/serial rapist? what kind of feminist tale you think you are doing?

I remember the rogue one producer saying that if they had to do many crazy devices to keep characters alive, they should just kill them.