"Loving Submission" - Yay or Nay

[SiegePerilous02]

It could be just as recommend as all-star. You just trying to make something really awful sounds better and dismissing important voices of women. that just not a good thing to do

I don't think the book is really awful, so I'm not defending something I think is bad.

Wasn't my intention, I just wanted to point out that not all female readers of the book found something objectionable about it. Same as the fact that there were probably male readers who found something offensive about it, as well as those who loved it. Though I guess inspiring discussions on whether something is offensive/scandalous/sexist/outrageous or not is what Wonder Woman is all about. She was promoting feminism and same sex relations between women in the 1940s after all.

Because it is how it should be. Dina just don't need a father, then when they try to have Diana having a father it just feels wrong.

Like a woman having her child with her own rapist? screw that

woman having her kid sleeping with a married man/serial rapist? what kind of feminist tale you think you are doing?

I remember the rogue one producer saying that if they had to do many crazy devices to keep characters alive, they should just kill them.

Nobody is forcing these creators to execute this in such a bizarre way. They can tell a story where Hippolyta sleeps with a man without him being married and having a history as an abuser, or the man who threatened her with rape. In the Silver Age, Hippolyta's true love was some sailor named Prince Theno. Why not just have that mortal guy be her dad whose dead before the story begins and let that be the end of it? Or my idea to have Hippolyta and Hercules have consensual sex before their falling out...if they even need to go to war with each other at all. Make Theseus the bad guy and leave Herc alone.

[spirit2011]

Nobody is forcing these creators to execute this in such a bizarre way. They can tell a story where Hippolyta sleeps with a man without him being married and having a history as an abuser, or the man who threatened her with rape. In the Silver Age, Hippolyta's true love was some sailor named Prince Theno. Why not just have that mortal guy be her dad whose dead before the story begins and let that be the end of it? Or my idea to have Hippolyta and Hercules have consensual sex before their falling out...if they even need to go to war with each other at all. Make Theseus the bad guy and leave Herc alone.

Then you just have a random character that is uninteresting, look at this random man that is the diana's father. It just not interesting
Now if two writers that have good work and critical/fan acclaim can't do it, make me skeptical.

then hercules and hipolitha have consensual sex, when on very first wonder woman series he was just a sexual predator. don't screw a perfect origin just for having a father.

[SiegePerilous02]

Then you just have a random character that is uninteresting, look at this random man that is the diana's father. It just not interesting
Now if two writers that have good work and critical/fan acclaim can't do it, make me skeptical.

then hercules and hipolitha have consensual sex, when on very first wonder woman series he was just a sexual predator. don't screw a perfect origin just for having a father.

So same as the Waynes and the Els then? We don't need much more out of them than producing their sons, so a father whose dead can just provide his seed and exit the narrative, leaving it to Hippolyta. It would stop people from calling her a golem.

Actually, in WW #1 by Marston and Peters, Hercules is described as "making love" to Hippolyta before he betrays her. A few panels later, a baby Diana is described as "having the strength of Hercules." Maybe this clay birth as a fairy tale thing is older than we think?

[Awonder]

About the Father discussion, It is really needed?

First, I don't think Diana needs a father at all. I am passionately adamant that Diana's birth story (and much more) should be a very decidedly feminine narrative, which is why I love Simone's embellishments, specifically a mother's blood, to Diana's clay birth story.

However, DC/WB can't seem to not give her a father. So, that is what we have to deal with, and, here, I think it relates in the different ways it has been handled (for better or worse). I don't like Azzarello's choice of a father (and many other things), but, at least, for that small moment, he chose to have it be mutual loving submission.

I think the book itself is ambiguous and lends itself to the interpretation that Hercules raped her. But I believe Paquette said there was no rape, and I think it can be interpreted as not being present. Hercules says "it's all play, remember?" which kind of makes me believe they were doing some kind of kinky bondage role play (because of course they did) and Hercules took her Girdle while she was vulnerable and enslaved her. Rape for Hippolyta and the Amazons is clearly on the agenda for Herc and his men, but she kills him before it can happen. If we take what she said at face value, Hippolyta creating a child isn't coming initially from a place of love. She loves the irony of using Herc's supreme seed of masculinity to create a race of hyper strong female warriors. She eventually let her rage go and went to the opposite extreme, wanting to coddle and protect Diana at all costs.

It's very bizarre, and honestly? I think I would prefer Hippolyta and Hercules sleeping together and then he betrays her, and have Diana just be conceived as a result of that. The fact that we can never give Diana a father without it being weird or sketchy in some way is really irritating.

Hippolyta never strikes me as a character that likes irony any where else in the story. So, for me, this doesn't feel like a choice this character would make. Much like other events, ala Marvel's Civil Wars, this feels entirely like a choice the author makes and forces into the narrratvie because of the concept that storytelling needs drama, and drama is conflict. As such, characters act irrationally and out of character to be dramatic. She had a powerful, female alternative in Medusa, whom Morrison even labels as the "Mother of monsters." Even in seeking revenge, that's the choice this Hippolyta would make.

I like the choice of Hercules as Diana's father much more than Zeus, but, like you, would much prefer they went about it differently. Either, as you suggest, a consensual union before the battle (somewhat similar to what Azzarello gave us), or, a reunion and reconciliation much later on down the road. In doing so, Herc wouldn't be the bad guy in their initial conflict either, he and Hippolyta could just be caught in the middle of two sides pushed by others into a big, messy misunderstanding.

Eta- How Diana is raised is much more important than her genes. And, while both Morrison and Azzarello mention moments of "loving submission," neither of them does a great job of developing it particularly when it comes to actually showing how Diana learned it from her mother and sister Amazons.

[SiegePerilous02]

Hippolyta never strikes me as a character that likes irony any where else in the story. So, for me, this doesn't feel like a choice this character would make. Much like other events, ala Marvel's Civil Wars, this feels entirely like a choice the author makes and forces into the narrratvie because of the concept that storytelling needs drama, and drama is conflict. As such, characters act irrationally and out of character to be dramatic. She had a powerful, female alternative in Medusa, whom Morrison even labels as the "Mother of monsters." Even in seeking revenge, that's the choice this Hippolyta would make.

Hippolyta in the present isn't the same person as the Hippolyta whose wounds are still fresh. She made the decision while her rage was still boiling. Evidently, it didn't even last that long. Diana is stated to have been around almost as long as the Amazons have been on the island, so Hippolyta must have given birth soon after they settled there and gave up the crazy ploy once she gave birth to her daughter and maternal instincts kick in.

I don't see anything irrational in overlooking Medusa in her revenge plot, because we have no idea how long she's had access to Medusa. It's not really a plot hole or anything, we have 3000 years between the arrival on the island and the current events where any number of things could have happened.

I like the choice of Hercules as Diana's father much more than Zeus, but, like you, would much prefer they went about it differently. Either, as you suggest, a consensual union before the battle (somewhat similar to what Azzarello gave us), or, a reunion and reconciliation much later on down the road. In doing so, Herc wouldn't be the bad guy in their initial conflict either, he and Hippolyta could just be caught in the middle of two sides pushed by others into a big, messy misunderstanding.

Eta- How Diana is raised is much more important than her genes. And, while both Morrison and Azzarello mention moments of "loving submission," neither of them does a great job of developing it particularly when it comes to actually showing how Diana learned it from her mother and sister Amazons.

It'd be cool to redo the Doom's Doorway arc but have it just be Hippolyta who enters and frees Hercules. They reconcile and he goes to Olympus, but they have their little reunion in between. This of course would be done without him ever having raped her. I always hate that kiss they share in the Perez run.

Diana is mentored by Althea in Earth One. It's her teachings of the Purple Ray that prompt Diana to want to share their technology with the outside world and seeing people dying there when a Purple Ray could heal them. Hippolyta falling in love with who Diana was and raising her to be loved and be herself paints a good picture of her life there and how she could be so compassionate and steadfast in her beliefs, no matter how mother and daughter clash in the present.

[Awonder]

Hippolyta in the present isn't the same person as the Hippolyta whose wounds are still fresh. She made the decision while her rage was still boiling. Evidently, it didn't even last that long. Diana is stated to have been around almost as long as the Amazons have been on the island, so Hippolyta must have given birth soon after they settled there and gave up the crazy ploy once she gave birth to her daughter and maternal instincts kick in.

I don't see anything irrational in overlooking Medusa in her revenge plot, because we have no idea how long she's had access to Medusa. It's not really a plot hole or anything, we have 3000 years between the arrival on the island and the current events where any number of things could have happened.

I'm not saying it's a plot hole, per se, but, "any number of things could have happened" is not exactly strong plotting either. For me, it never felt like a decision this character would make even when the wounds were fresh. It always feels like a decision Morrison made more for the story than for the character - which gets back to my larger point and skepticism about storytelling in general and especially corporate superhero comics.

Here, immediately after the battle, Hippolyta isn't seen wanting more revenge, but a way out of the violence of this world*. She prays for a "paradise" for her and the Amazons, but, then what? Stops to cut off Hercules' balls just in case she wants them later? Even as an idea to use him as revenge against a patriarchal world, it is done so in a very patriarchal way; it may be daughters instead of sons, but it would still perpetuate his legacy, ensuring that he lives on. So, it's not exactly subversive storytelling.

*edit - "Sweet Aphrodite. No more spilled blood. No more shackles. Let us retire forever from man's world. Let us draw an impenetrable veil around our affairs and prosper in peace. In a world that bears no mark of men." This is does not sound like a woman that a) wants revenge, nor b) wants to have her attacker's child. Thus, that's why the story doesn't fit together very well as a whole.

And as to whether or not she was actually raped? It's pretty heavily implied that was the intent. It shouldn't take answering questions later on twitter to clear that up.

It'd be cool to redo the Doom's Doorway arc but have it just be Hippolyta who enters and frees Hercules. They reconcile and he goes to Olympus, but they have their little reunion in between. This of course would be done without him ever having raped her. I always hate that kiss they share in the Perez run.

I hadn't thought about it that way, but, yeah, it would be cool to see Hippolyta rescue Herc.

Diana is mentored by Althea in Earth One. It's her teachings of the Purple Ray that prompt Diana to want to share their technology with the outside world and seeing people dying there when a Purple Ray could heal them. Hippolyta falling in love with who Diana was and raising her to be loved and be herself paints a good picture of her life there and how she could be so compassionate and steadfast in her beliefs, no matter how mother and daughter clash in the present.

You're right that there are many good moments painting a picture of Diana's life and relationships on the island. It's much warmer and more positive than Azzarello's version, thankfully. But, I was speaking more specifically about examples of Diana learning "loving submission," not just when it's easy, like celebrations, but when it's hard. For instance, the idea that the queen lovingly submits herself to the service of her people is only thrown in at the end. I don't recall any development or foreshadowing earlier in the story. It just kind of comes out of nowhere. And goes nowhere.

Even the juxtaposition of bad bondage in the first part of the story with "submission" later on is never a fully realized theme. At best, it's barely mentioned piecemeal. Now, imagine a similar story in the hands of a less skilled and concerned creative team with more DC editorial meddling - what could possibly go wrong?

[Aioros22]

Because it is how it should be. Dina just don't need a father, then when they try to have Diana having a father it just feels wrong.

Like a woman having her child with her own rapist? screw that

woman having her kid sleeping with a married man/serial rapist? what kind of feminist tale you think you are doing?

I remember the rogue one producer saying that if they had to do many crazy devices to keep characters alive, they should just kill them.

I find it weird that in order to present the validy of an all female presentation with the concept - and it certainly is, you decide to make this rash comparison.

The Hyppolita you are talking about wasn`t raped.

[Agent Z]

I find it weird that in order to present the validy of an all female presentation with the concept - and it certainly is, you decide to make this rash comparison.

The Hyppolita you are talking about wasn`t raped.

What do you call what Hercules did to her then? Are we really supposed to believe he just chained her up and yelled misogynistic insults at her?

[spirit2011]

So same as the Waynes and the Els then? We don't need much more out of them than producing their sons, so a father whose dead can just provide his seed and exit the narrative, leaving it to Hippolyta. It would stop people from calling her a golem.

Actually, in WW #1 by Marston and Peters, Hercules is described as "making love" to Hippolyta before he betrays her. A few panels later, a baby Diana is described as "having the strength of Hercules." Maybe this clay birth as a fairy tale thing is older than we think?

I don't think so. If Marton choose the clay birth is because is the one that fits mostly his feminist narrative.
Women that have hard times to get pregnant often relate to Hippolyta quest to get a kid. Take it away is a disservice to feminism and to women on that situation

Waynes and Els aren't nobodies, they play very well into the life their sons have (at least the fathers because the mothers are often forgotten). So give a diana just a father just to be a father is a big no

What do you call what Hercules did to her then? Are we really supposed to believe he just chained her up and yelled misogynistic insults at her?

If she wasn't raped, she was about to be raped.

[Aioros22]

What do you call what Hercules did to her then? Are we really supposed to believe he just chained her up and yelled misogynistic insults at her?

1) Sure, you could believe that, it wouldn`t change the bad.

2) This has to be about New52 Hyppolita because the former chronology (in this case Perez) didn`t have a father for Diana.

[spirit2011]

First, I don't think Diana needs a father at all. I am passionately adamant that Diana's birth story (and much more) should be a very decidedly feminine narrative, which is why I love Simone's embellishments, specifically a mother's blood, to Diana's clay birth story.

However, DC/WB can't seem to not give her a father. So, that is what we have to deal with, and, here, I think it relates in the different ways it has been handled (for better or worse). I don't like Azzarello's choice of a father (and many other things), but, at least, for that small moment, he chose to have it be mutual loving submission.

The addition of a father was so late on game of the character, I don't know why WB/DC decided this.
Ok I know, they are afraid of the character feminism and that not having a father might make her "unrelatable".

there isn't many reasons for a father, except "look she has a father like everyone else" and WW isno't like everyone else. You just break a unique thing in the name of normal

I'm not saying it's a plot hole, per se, but, "any number of things could have happened" is not exactly strong plotting either. For me, it never felt like a decision this character would make even when the wounds were fresh. It always feels like a decision Morrison made more for the story than for the character - which gets back to my larger point and skepticism about storytelling in general and especially corporate superhero comics.

Here, immediately after the battle, Hippolyta isn't seen wanting more revenge, but a way out of the violence of this world*. She prays for a "paradise" for her and the Amazons, but, then what? Stops to cut off Hercules' balls just in case she wants them later? Even as an idea to use him as revenge against a patriarchal world, it is done so in a very patriarchal way; it may be daughters instead of sons, but it would still perpetuate his legacy, ensuring that he lives on. So, it's not exactly subversive storytelling.

*edit - "Sweet Aphrodite. No more spilled blood. No more shackles. Let us retire forever from man's world. Let us draw an impenetrable veil around our affairs and prosper in peace. In a world that bears no mark of men." This is does not sound like a woman that a) wants revenge, nor b) wants to have her attacker's child. Thus, that's why the story doesn't fit together very well as a whole.

And as to whether or not she was actually raped? It's pretty heavily implied that was the intent. It shouldn't take answering questions later on twitter to clear that up.

it's not like Morrison can write women constantly without screwing up them after.


I hadn't thought about it that way, but, yeah, it would be cool to see Hippolyta rescue Herc.

good read of the absurd thing is hipolyta having the child of her rapist

You're right that there are many good moments painting a picture of Diana's life and relationships on the island. It's much warmer and more positive than Azzarello's version, thankfully. But, I was speaking more specifically about examples of Diana learning "loving submission," not just when it's easy, like celebrations, but when it's hard. For instance, the idea that the queen lovingly submits herself to the service of her people is only thrown in at the end. I don't recall any development or foreshadowing earlier in the story. It just kind of comes out of nowhere. And goes nowhere.

Even the juxtaposition of bad bondage in the first part of the story with "submission" later on is never a fully realized theme. At best, it's barely mentioned piecemeal. Now, imagine a similar story in the hands of a less skilled and concerned creative team with more DC editorial meddling - what could possibly go wrong?

That is why I voted a big no. I don1t trust writers and DC editors. And I think it is not a crucial element on WW story.

[Pat Powers]

What an interesting discussion. I've enjoyed reading it.

I think a return to Loving Submission days for Wonder Woman has an enormous upside to it that has not been mentioned heretofore in this discussion, from DC's point of view, and I'm betting at least some consideration has been given to it, because the potential upside has been demonstrated so powerfully.

The demonstration is this: Fifty Shades of Gray sold 70 million copies in one year. Seventy million people, most of them women, bought a copy of a book about a Loving Submission romance between a billionaire (today's real life super power) and an ordinary woman.

And it's not just Fifty Shades of Gray. Fifty Shades sprang from a whole cottage industry of indie erotica writers who write stories, many of them with BDSM elements, about romances between billionaires and ordinary women.

So suppose DC did a Wonder Woman Returns To Loving Submission run, with all the power of DC's marketing. How big a chunk of that 70 million people could they get?

It's true that this is a largely female audience and not one that typically reads comics, but the most important factor here is, it's largely a LARGE audience. By which I mean, FREAKING HUGE audience. I mean, suppose you got only ten percent of the Fifty Shades of Gray audience to buy a Loving Submission run comic. That's seven million new readers.

But you know, even just ten percent might be an optimistic projection. So let's take it down an order of magnitude: just one percent would be 700,000 new readers.

But let's be extra extra extra cautious and project that just one tenth of one percent of the Fifty Shades of Gray audience went for a Wonder Woman Loving Submission run. That would be … 70,000 new readers.

So, yah, that's an upside, alrighty. A huge one. And just the sort of upside the big guns at DC might find intriguing.

[SiegePerilous02]

What an interesting discussion. I've enjoyed reading it.

I think a return to Loving Submission days for Wonder Woman has an enormous upside to it that has not been mentioned heretofore in this discussion, from DC's point of view, and I'm betting at least some consideration has been given to it, because the potential upside has been demonstrated so powerfully.

The demonstration is this: Fifty Shades of Gray sold 70 million copies in one year. Seventy million people, most of them women, bought a copy of a book about a Loving Submission romance between a billionaire (today's real life super power) and an ordinary woman.

And it's not just Fifty Shades of Gray. Fifty Shades sprang from a whole cottage industry of indie erotica writers who write stories, many of them with BDSM elements, about romances between billionaires and ordinary women.

So suppose DC did a Wonder Woman Returns To Loving Submission run, with all the power of DC's marketing. How big a chunk of that 70 million people could they get?

It's true that this is a largely female audience and not one that typically reads comics, but the most important factor here is, it's largely a LARGE audience. By which I mean, FREAKING HUGE audience. I mean, suppose you got only ten percent of the Fifty Shades of Gray audience to buy a Loving Submission run comic. That's seven million new readers.

But you know, even just ten percent might be an optimistic projection. So let's take it down an order of magnitude: just one percent would be 700,000 new readers.

But let's be extra extra extra cautious and project that just one tenth of one percent of the Fifty Shades of Gray audience went for a Wonder Woman Loving Submission run. That would be … 70,000 new readers.

So, yah, that's an upside, alrighty. A huge one. And just the sort of upside the big guns at DC might find intriguing.

I think one of the major issues people have with 50 Shades, particularly those from the BDSM sub-culture, is that it's actual depictions of sex are pretty vanilla, so it doesn't deliver on that front, and it basically romanticizes abuse and rape.

But there clearly is an interest in the "forbidden" going on. I mean, it can't be that difficult to create a plot more engaging than 50 Shades, can it? We already have access to a larger than life character like Wonder Woman as compared to the human wasteland that is (ugh) Anastasia. She would clearly be the dom in the story while Steve would be the sub, and that flips the dynamics 50 Shades works with and may actually be more engaging to women. It would be an opportunity for more positive representation for the subculture because Wonder Woman would be all about consent and safe words.

Not that I would trust DC to do this well, but they do have Stejpan Sejic now. If they put him in charge of it, and basically had him channel Sunstone (which I've heard is a complex examination of two women in such a relationship that is depicted with a lot of nuance and accuracy), we could be looking at something pretty great.

[Awonder]

You totally lost me at 50 Shades. That's like saying she should date a sparkly Dracula to try to get the Twilight crowd. No. Just no.

[Pat Powers]

My point about Fifty Shades is only that it revealed that there is this huge, underserved audience of mostly female readers that might find Wonder Woman very attractive if she returned to the bondage themes of her early days, but with a more modern understanding and a more mature outlook. Marston was writing in a medium that was, at the time, considered to be targeted at children. It is AMAZING that he got away with as much as he did, but he did have to dial things down a lot, I'm sure.

But you don't have to write a story about a Wonder Woman who is anything like Ana in Fifty Shades, because of course she's NOTHING like Ana in Fifty Shades. She's a powerful, accomplished woman. There are several ways you could go about it and do a good job:

1) Have Wonder Woman enjoy playing the submissive in her sexual relationships as a contrast to her public image as a powerful, dominating person who kicks ass and takes notes. Maybe even have her go incognito to seek out doms or dommes to control her (I don't much care if she is straight, gay or bisexual, I bet DC would go with straight) with her pretending all the while that she is a poor helpless little thing in the mighty arms of the dom or domme and loving the hell out of it. After the sex, back to kicking ass. Lots of potential for humor, lightness, character building here. She's still the powerful Amazon she always was, just has a new dimension.

2) Sidestep having Wonder Woman's character entirely by focusing on Transformation Island, where criminals are reformed via Loving Submission with the help of the Venus Girdles. How exactly did that work? Maybe do a story about a minor league metahuman criminal who goes to Transformation Island and is reformed into becoming a metahuman superheroine there. Lots of being chained, submitting to loving authority, learning to care about others and to allow others to care for her. It could be very Sunstone as well, plenty of room for nuance and wit. Meanwhile, Wonder Woman remains her mighty self.

I prefer the first approach. I have thought about having Wonder Woman desire a submissive sexual relationship with Superman or Batman, but I just don't see it. The Justice League trio are basically co-workers in fighting evil, a romance there woudl be irrelevant. A Wonder Woman romance with a different metahuman superhero might work, but it's very close to my first story except maybe without the incognito elements.

I think this could make big bucks for DC. If you study the stories with BDSM elements in them that have proven to be enormously successful, it's because they allowed people to enjoy kinky sex fantasies without being considered kinky themselves. That's what Fifty Shades did, it was marketed as a romance that had BDSM elements (rather than kinky porn). And the brief appearance of Slave Leia in Empire Stikes Back has allowed thousands of SF fans to explore sexy slavegirl fantasies. Wonder Woman could serve the same purpose and build a huge new audience. I think they would find it especially appealing, even essential, that she be presented as still a powerful kicker of evildoer's asses, even as she enjoyed the submissive sexuality. It could go big.