"Loving Submission" - Yay or Nay

[Pat Powers]

I was not proposing that EL James write a Wonder Woman run. Check out my response to Seige Perilous to see what I was proposing.

[Awonder]

I was not proposing that EL James write a Wonder Woman run. Check out my response to Seige Perilous to see what I was proposing.

Your proposal is begging for failure for the simple notion that you're chasing another fanbase. There are countless examples where that hasn't worked. Marvel chased anime for years with little to no success. Twilight was huge, making hundreds of millions more than 50 Shades, yet, other urban vampire romance didn't sell half as well. Fans of one series don't just pick up whatever else you throw at them. Moreover, 50 Shades is already beyond its prime with the second movie making hundreds of millions less than the first.

More important, DC/WB is not going to take WW into any detail about her sex life, just as they don't for any of their marquee heroes. That isn't what they do, and it's not their brand. They may have brief glimpses here and there, but that's it.

[nebezial]

yup, pretty much this!

[Pat Powers]

Growing a property sometimes requires taking risks. As I said, the size of the Fifty Shades fanbase should be very appealing to DC.

I don't think they'll do actual bondage porn imagery, but they can certainly IMPLY sexual bondage just as they IMPLY sex all the time. See: Starfire. It can be done.

[Awonder]

Growing a property sometimes requires taking risks. As I said, the size of the Fifty Shades fanbase should be very appealing to DC.

I don't think they'll do actual bondage porn imagery, but they can certainly IMPLY sexual bondage just as they IMPLY sex all the time. See: Starfire. It can be done.

One of the best ways for a business to fail is to forget what they do. DC publishes superheroes, not wanna-be 50 Shades fan fic.

And, if the are only "implying" sex, what 50 Shades fan is even going to be remotely intrigued by that?

[ed2962]

I think it's possible to do it. Like someone (Seige) said, "Sunstone" is a good example of how such material could be handled in a smart and engaging way.

On the other hand, like Awonder just said, DC isn't about to get too detailed about the sex lives about any of their icon characters and they can just barely handle heteronormative sexuality in cape comics. Half the time they screw that up.

Having said that, you really don't have to be explicit about it. You can introduce those concepts and be subtle about it. But it'll take a smart and informed writer to do it and not make it sensationalistic.

[Jim Kelly]

I think there's a kind of tunnel vision when it comes to how Marston set up the Amazon's cult of Aphrodite. It's like this is the only religion, fictional or real, that required loving submission of its followers or had practices that can be viewed as kinky when separated out of their context.

I won't name names, because that could derail this thread, yet there are some very well-known ideologies and mythologies that you could pick apart in the same way. But we give the billions of people who follow those dogma some respect and allowance for doing their own thing.

It really bugs me that Marston's personal choices are denegrated this way. I just think that "whatever gets you through the night is all right, 's all right."

[Outside_85]

I think the topic is interesting and I think it's actually a core part of the whole 'fighting with love' tagline people love to put on Diana. Because someone as powerful as her have a very easy time to unintentionally appear aloof and above everyone else. So the whole submissive aspect could be as simple as seeing her going down to normal people's levels rather than pull them up to hers.
Like Superman often floats down from above when he is to meet someone and often also remains hanging in the air above them, while Diana would simply land to have the other person at eye height.

With combat, within reason I would say there could be more of the kind of fights like the one Simone had between Diana and the GL and Rucka's cuddle/wrestling with Cheetah where Diana takes a few blows or hangs on while the other character gets their tantrum out of their system. She could fight back and end it pretty quickly, but essentially these fight could be seen as her submitting to the anger of the other characters and weathers the storm till they are reasonable again.

In terms of love... I don't see why it needs to be something spectacular that a character might enjoy love making in a particular fashion. It doesn't have to be depicted, and it doesn't have to explicit or extreme, all it needs is being alluded to... even in the form of a joke. And in the case of the Amazons, in general, it could have taken on a kind ritualistic aspect.

[Alpha]

I think the topic is interesting and I think it's actually a core part of the whole 'fighting with love' tagline people love to put on Diana. Because someone as powerful as her have a very easy time to unintentionally appear aloof and above everyone else. So the whole submissive aspect could be as simple as seeing her going down to normal people's levels rather than pull them up to hers.
Like Superman often floats down from above when he is to meet someone and often also remains hanging in the air above them, while Diana would simply land to have the other person at eye height.

With combat, within reason I would say there could be more of the kind of fights like the one Simone had between Diana and the GL and Rucka's cuddle/wrestling with Cheetah where Diana takes a few blows or hangs on while the other character gets their tantrum out of their system. She could fight back and end it pretty quickly, but essentially these fight could be seen as her submitting to the anger of the other characters and weathers the storm till they are reasonable again.

In terms of love... I don't see why it needs to be something spectacular that a character might enjoy love making in a particular fashion. It doesn't have to be depicted, and it doesn't have to explicit or extreme, all it needs is being alluded to... even in the form of a joke. And in the case of the Amazons, in general, it could have taken on a kind ritualistic aspect.

Totally agree. I think a direct translation of Loving Submission won't work, but the idea of Diana being this person who doesn't like to let things go (even if she does have her limits) and in a physical sense this means that she fights like a wrestler. Hanging on while they get their tantrum out of their system is the perfect way to put it. This comes from her dedp curiosity and amazement at the world, and a desire to work things out directly

[I'm a Fish]

I definitely think it depends on the situation, and of course, the writer. In Combat, I thought the way Orlando had Diana use it agents Cheetah in issue #83 made sense. They were friends and Cheetah was trying to tell Diana something all-be-it in a very violent way (like she does everything) so it made sense for Diana to basically say "Hold on, if you want want to tell me something then I'll listen. We don't need to fight over it, we can just talk."

But I thought the was Rucka used it agents Phobos and Diemos was a little weird, since she basically said "I love you." until they got so freaked out they surrendered. So yeah, it really depends on a lot of stuff. And if the writer isn't confident they can use it correctly they should just avoid it all together.

Out of combat...maybe just allude to it if you are gonna bring it up at all...

[Celgress]

OP Question -

I have no opinion on the subject. There was no "don't care option" thus I didn't vote in the poll.

[lotchj]

Loving submission what does that mean??? Never got that!!

[Celgress]

Loving submission what does that mean??? Never got that!!

*takes a deep breath* Okay, here goes. -

It means, or at least heavily implies, Diana enjoys being restrained and/or restraining her partner(s) during sexual activity so one party submits to the whims of the other.

[Marik Swift]

*takes a deep breath* Okay, here goes. -

It means, or at least heavily implies, Diana enjoys being restrained and/or restraining her partner(s) during sexual activity so one party submits to the whims of the other.

It's not about sexual activity.

It's related to it, but it's not innately about it. What you are describing is straight up BDSM, not loving submission.

[Agent Z]

It's not about sexual activity.

It's related to it, but it's not innately about it. What you are describing is straight up BDSM, not loving submission.

Considering what Marston was into and how often he incorporated it into his work, I don't think you can separate that from what "loving submission" means.