Post-Reborn status of the Kents?

[Sacred Knight]

The one thing I find kind of disturbing in some of the responses is the notion that Superman becomes 'weaker' or 'less of a man' or 'cheesy' if his parents are still alive.

Its nothing inherent. Its simply a product of the execution. It was the way he was written all too often the last time around when they were alive. That's not to say it didn't have its moments either, because it did. But for me, their presence in his adult life was abused by mentally weak characterization. Better writing can avoid it, yes, its not mandatory that a person is weak in adulthood if their parents are alive. I just don't trust them not to write it badly again if things are changed back.

As for being in the minority...I'm used to that when it comes to supporting pre-Crisis ideas. Pre-Crisis is vastly underrated today and has been for a very long time.

[Superlad93]

I went with option 2.

Jonathan's death is a lesson in limitations. Martha lives for a while after, but eventually passes.
It's not like I have super strong feeling about any particular take. I don't agree with the nonsense about Clark having to use them as a crutch.
A writer does HAVE to use them at all! Just a strange strawman argument that sounds just as odd as the idea that he must have them around
or he's not him. Both strange extremes that take personal taste and make it the law of the land for whatever reason. It's just not that serous.

That all said, I fully expect them to be gone Post-Reborn. Didn't see them in the new timeline flashbacks for Jon's birth. I'm totally down for Clark's
extended family (the Daily Planet) being there for the Kents and Jon in particular. Gives Perry more standing in their lives without letting him in on the secret.

I also want to take this opportunity to let Lois' family get some play. You have a far more compelling story when it's a xenophobic grandfather having to deal with the idea
that his own flesh n' blood is part alien. The emotional journey for that story sounds fascinating and relevant.

[Last Son]

I'm not sure I have any particular preference, though I'm more open to the idea of the Kents being alive than I used to be, but if the pre-Flashpoint influence is as big as I think it is, then I'm guessing Jonathan is dead of a heart attack and Martha is alive.

[Knightsilver]

I think it'd be nice if the Kent's lived long enough to see their grandson...but as for the present day,I'm okay with them having passed. Perry works as a surrogate grandpa to Jon,he was already something of a father figure to Lois and Clark in many ways. Sam Lane would probably want to encourage Jon towards a career in the military,and as Superlad said, it'd be interesting to see him react to having a half alien grandson,and overcome his prejudices.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I'm not sure I have any particular preference, though I'm more open to the idea of the Kents being alive than I used to be, but if the pre-Flashpoint influence is as big as I think it is, then I'm guessing Jonathan is dead of a heart attack and Martha is alive.

Yeah, I hope this is the case too. It sweet that Clark and Lois named their son in honor of Clark's dad.

[Last Son of Krypton]

No one is saying the "it's tradition/that's how it should be" excuse should apply to the Kents being alive either. The fact is that them being alive has certain merits which outweigh the 'benefits' of them being dead.

Its worth noting that them being dead was not even something that integral to Superman before COIE either. The first time the Kents were introduced, they were basically a plot device to explain how an alien infant grew up on earth (actually, that was already covered in the very first iteration of the origin - they were more a plot device to explain where the name 'Clark Kent' came from). They were hardly important characters, so their deaths didn't mean much. Then, with the Superboy stories, they became important supporting characters during Clark's childhood and teenage years. They were still dead in the present, but its not like that really contributed anything much to the stories themselves (as far as I know). Superman certainly spent a lot more time angsting over Krypton than he did over the deaths of his adoptive parents.

Then, with the 1986 reboot, Byrne made the Kents important characters in the Superman stories for the first time. And there's at least one interview where he claims it was to make up for retconning Superboy out of existence, which were the stories where the Kents used to be prominent players. And Byrne and subsequent writers made the Kents and the Smallville setting integral parts of the Superman mythos. Its worth noting that every adaptation of Superman since 1986 has made one or both of the Kent's not only important characters in Superman's backstory but even in his 'present-day' adventures.

Come to think of it, even when the Kents were dead in the New 52, it was made clear in-story that their deaths were part of the machinations of a 5th-dimensional foe and that the Kents being alive was the way things 'should have been'.

In a sense, I view the Kents being alive (or at least, having been alive well into Superman's career) as being a retcon nearly on par with the retcon that Alfred raised Bruce Wayne since childhood and is a father-figure to him.

At most, Martha being alive is a retcon almost in par with Alfred raising Bruce, as in various media adaptations it was reiterated and made popular the idea of just Jonathan dying.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Well, to the uninitiated , one of the Kents being alive has been a concept that has existed in most non comics media since the 50's and the George Reeves show. Now, granted Ma Kent was only seen in the pilot, but it did establish she was alive when Clark Left Smallville , which carried over to the Donner film and pretty much every live action and animated version since. Many discover Supes through other media before comics, so to a majority of people Superman has at least one paternal figure in his life as an adult, if not both.

I mean think about how many aspects of Supes originated in other media. Perry and Jimmy, Kryptonite,flight. Alive Kent's is one such thing.

I'm not opposed to the idea of Martha being alive if it serves a narrative purpose like provide to Clark someone to talk to. Imagine MoS without Martha, Clark would have fewer lines than in the original.

[FishyZombie]

I feel like Clark's current arc is him trying to fill his Pa's shoes. And I think that works better if Jonathan* is dead, so he can't lecture Clark or give advice or even tell his son that he's proud of what he's doing. Clark can only do his best and hope he's living up to his old man's example. Also I like the idea that even if Jonathan has been dead for years, Clark probably understands him now more than he ever did while he was alive. Clark's burden with maintaining a successful marriage and instilling a child with godlike abilities with strong values, all while hiding who they are from the rest of the world, was once Jonathan's burden. Superman's adoptive father isn't needed because their dynamic has come full circle and "the son becomes the father."
*obviously i mean Pa Kent, not the kid

[Patrick Gerard]

As I've said elsewhere, I think ONE of them being alive does as much good as both of them being alive. And ONE of them dying does as much good as both of them dying.

I'd like to keep Martha alive but I would push Jonathan's death (natural causes please, rather than Vyn or a tropical virus) back to before superman debuted. It infuses a sense of regret into Superman's life. It matches many media adaptations. You can always restore or redo that once classic story where Jonathan is brought back to life for a day as a gift to Superman. That should be on the classics list but we got spoiled with too much Jonathan.

Part of why this works is that the most iconic imagery regarding Superman's parents' deaths (in comics and media) is ALL focused on Jonathan's death. I vaguely recall the idea in the Golden-Age may have even been that she died first, off-panel, but that meant the ON-PANEL story we saw was Jonathan talking to Clark from his death bed. Which makes that more important.

Secret Origin would have probably had Jonathan die sooner as well but I gather it was difficult to get approvals for removing Jonathan at all.

Loeb sincerely thought he could kill off Jonathan in OWAW but, I think, never asked and had him disappear in hopes that DC would sign off on a confirmed death, which they didn't. I gather -- and I could be wrong -- that the Loeb approach is to have a direction in mind, go as far in that direction as possible without getting approval, and then ask for the approval as you're on the cusp of doing it but while you have a way of backing out. Sometimes you have to sell an idea by showing it in action.

[Ascended]

My ideal is for the Kents to both die before Clark becomes Superman. But in the spirit of a unified continuity I voted for "Both live to see Superman, both eventually died." I dont want or need the Kents hanging around taking up page space in the present; their roles in the narrative can be utilized in flashbacks or through other characters like Perry. But in order to keep the continuity as clean as possible, let's just say Johnathan died during the Brainiac story and Martha died at some point thereafter.

[Ascended]

I also want to take this opportunity to let Lois' family get some play. You have a far more compelling story when it's a xenophobic grandfather having to deal with the idea
that his own flesh n' blood is part alien. The emotional journey for that story sounds fascinating and relevant.

But that would mean DC would have to write Sam Lane with a degree of nuance and moral complexity, instead of as a poor man's Thunderbolt Ross.

Im not sure they're capable of that anymore, honestly.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think Jonathan being dead and Martha being alive is the best compromise. It gives Superman his critical moment of understanding that, even with all his powers, he can't save everyone. It being his own father is what makes it sting. While keeping Martha alive gives you virtually everything he could get from having both of his parents alive without losing the pathos of a dead parent.

[Kuwagaton]

Loeb sincerely thought he could kill off Jonathan in OWAW but, I think, never asked and had him disappear in hopes that DC would sign off on a confirmed death, which they didn't. I gather -- and I could be wrong -- that the Loeb approach is to have a direction in mind, go as far in that direction as possible without getting approval, and then ask for the approval as you're on the cusp of doing it but while you have a way of backing out. Sometimes you have to sell an idea by showing it in action.

I'm glad the way that turned out because Johns did a great job

But that would mean DC would have to write Sam Lane with a degree of nuance and moral complexity, instead of as a poor man's Thunderbolt Ross.

Im not sure they're capable of that anymore, honestly.

Yeah, fisch and morrison had a rare miss there

[Patrick Gerard]

I'm glad the way that turned out because Johns did a great job


Yeah, fisch and morrison had a rare miss there

While I think Sam has become rather one note, I do think making him a general is a good example of a post-Crisis development I'd rather keep, even though I want more pre-Crisis style adventures in Superman's past.

Relegating Mr. Lane to being a farmer from Pittsdale would be a mistake. Although I like the idea of Lois coming from a city other than Metropolis. Maybe because it adds another setting we could visit.

[Patrick Gerard]

One thing I would like to see restored, Supergirl-side, is that the Danvers had a son killed in combat before they adopted her. There's latent drama in that premise.