Ultimates2 #5 ending

[lordozone]

Spoiler:


The cosmic jailer is revealed. And it seems to be god !

[Tycon]

If you're referring to TOAA, that isn't him. It's a sentient being from the First Iteration of the MU.

[lordozone]

If you're referring to TOAA, that isn't him. It's a sentient being from the First Iteration of the MU.

He says that he was the first cosmic being, when there was one multiverse and he was the only god. For me, he is clearly the one above all, and it explain why the one above all did nothing when the beyonders destroyed the universe, and the Living Tribunal.

[itspopularnowitsucks]

I think the First Firmament is bascially the YHWH / TOAA of first iteration of cosmos. He is also the boss of Logos, who itself is the current replacement of Living Tribunal. My question is, where is the TOAA of current 8th iteration of cosmos? (Is it... Reed?)

[JKtheMac]

Early on Ewing was suggesting he was going to go a bit Lovecraft with the early iterations of the Cosmos. It seems as if this is Logos regressing back into a very early dark deity. A kind of ultimate chaos at the beginning of the beginning.

But if I read this right, the Cosmic jailer is a yellow parasite, which my mind is trying to reject as the Shadow King, because I have been watching too much TV.

[theoneandonly]

What I would like to know is did he survive eight iterations of reality being rebirthed as a part of each subsequent universe masking his presence due to being weakened by the death of the first universe or did he go into hibernation outside of reality and the premature ending of 616 multiverse or perhaps the experiments of beyonders and all that followed in secret wars awakened him?

[Omega Alpha]

Meh, between this and Unworthy Thor, is underwhelming reveal day at Marvel, it seems.

[nightw1ng]

I interpreted The First Firmament to be more like an Eternity analog of the first universe. I don't believe in the slightest that it's The One Above All for multiple reasons:

- The Living Tribunal was its agent. If it was TOAA, it would have corrupted The Living Tribunal, not Order and Chaos.
- TOAA is basically all-powerful God and wouldn't need agents to do what The First Firmament wants.
- If TOAA was The First Firmament, it wouldn't waited bothered creating a system of order when the universe was reborn the first time. It would have undone things in the second universe, not waited for the eighth.
- Ewing knows his Marvel history would have just called the being The One Above All.

[itspopularnowitsucks]

I interpreted The First Firmament to be more like an Eternity analog of the first universe. I don't believe in the slightest that it's The One Above All for multiple reasons:

- The Living Tribunal was its agent. If it was TOAA, it would have corrupted The Living Tribunal, not Order and Chaos.
- TOAA is basically all-powerful God and wouldn't need agents to do what The First Firmament wants.
- If TOAA was The First Firmament, it wouldn't waited bothered creating a system of order when the universe was reborn the first time. It would have undone things in the second universe, not waited for the eighth.
- Ewing knows his Marvel history would have just called the being The One Above All.

I shall offer counter arguments:

- First Firmament commands Logos as its agent, who is currently playing a corrupted role of Living Tribunal. Logos even looks like Living Tribunal. That makes the First Frimament a TOAA analogue.

- First Firmament is the sole cosmic entity of the first iteration of Marvel cosmos, which makes it The God, a.k.a. TOAA, albeit in its iteration only.

- Why wait? There could be so many explanations. Because a dead God is weak. A dead God may only come back as a threat because the current iteration of All-New All-Different Marvel Universe is weak and in flux. Because a dead God needs 7 iterations to recharge even a fragment of its former glory. Because Reed and kids **** up something. Because rule of story. Threat only happens because we are now and we want a story about that. You can argue this is bad writing, but it is not a reason why First Firmament is not a TOAA analogue.

- Because Ewing knows his history, First Firmament is an obscure reference to Grant Morrison's Marvel Boy. It doesn't mean it is not also a TOAA analogue from the first cosmos.

[CentralPower]

I have issue 4 in hand, and plan to pick up issue 5 soonishly. Following this thread to read the comments.

[Chainsaw Vigilante]

Agree with Nightw1ng. There is only one TOAA, there are no new ones per multiverse reboot, it transcends the multiverse and what lies beyond it; and also we have seen it multiple times in comics under various guises (disguised as Jack Kirby and Stan Lee, the recent Thanos and Warlock saga by Starlin had it in it). Logos isn't the new Tribunal, it merely believes itself to be. Much like when Thanos declared himself God when he had any number of his various ultimate power items, he actually wasn't. Any number of entities have claimed they were the devil, or ruler of hell as well.
Being the sole cosmic entity of the first multiverse/universe just means you are the sole entity within it, and know of nothing beyond your boundaries. That reminds me of the Uni-Lord saga in the classic Silver Surfer vol. 3 series. The Uni-Lord only knew of itself, it believed it was all there was, then a Watcher accidentally breached through into the Uni-Lord's universe via a rift (The Surfer later doing the same), and it was only through those events that the Uni-Lord knew it wasn't the only thing in existence.

[itspopularnowitsucks]

Oh boy some of your folks gave off a strange monolithic worshiping vibe with TOAA.

[dbilly]

I just found this interesting tidbit from a 2012 post about a Marvel Boy / Noh-Varr story written by Grant Morrison in 2001:
"Marvel Boy relates how his crew responded to five distress calls from doomed civilisations. They found the cause were three Astro-gods. Noh-Varr says there were ‘only’ three suggesting they usually travel in larger groups.
It would seem that the Astro-gods are on a higher scale than even Galactus or the Celestials. This makes them a fearsome force to be reckoned with.
They originate from The First Firmament. There isn’t much detail about what this actually is but the word firmament describes the concept of the sky as a barrier or dome. In the Bible the first firmament divides the water above (the source of rain) from our world.
Following this idea the First Firmament could describe a barrier between dimensions. The fact it is First Firmament could mean that it divides the original primal source of creation from all the realities that followed."

Here's that full post for context: https://watchingearth616.wordpress.c...he-hypoverses/

[JKtheMac]

I suspect First Firmament is just a poetic way of saying the original creation, or iteration one. It calls to mind the sky and this entity appears to be called Skyfather.

I don't see how this can be TOAA because the implication is that Logos actually goes back and through that backwards process becomes the Skyfather. The voice may change but the process is begun by Logos saying we will go back and ended by the Skyfather saying the same.

[theoneandonly]

after the builders and the infinites it was logical someone would want to bring in the concept of first firmament and the first firmament sems to resemble or incorporates the dogmatism of one church being true church rather than have various sects being broken from it coexisting peacefully.