R.I.P. Marvel's 'progressive' era, 2012-2017

[Moon Ronin]

If instead of Riri Williams, the Ironheart character had been a white dude, you wouldn't have gotten even a tenth of the outrage - if any at all. Guaranteed.

A lot of people cared about her age and, more importantly, her skin color. If they say they didn't, they're just lying to themselves.

"Oh no, it's just because she came out of the blue! It wasn't earned!"

Not a fu*king person ever says "it wasn't earned" when a white character becomes a legacy hero. Funny how that works.

And just as a reminder, plenty of people complained about Sam as Cap and Jane as Thor (still do, by the way) and those complaints were tied to race and gender as well.

I'm more upset that to put Riri as the lead in the Ironman book they

Killed Rhodey who would have been the obvious choice to take over
Put Tony in Coma and made him an A.I. (Evil A.I Tony will be on the way soon I'm sure of it)
And completely and utterly ignored Lila Rhodes (Rhodey's niece) is in the Marvel Universe who is not only a prodigy engineer but was mentored by Tony Stark.

[Overhazard]

It makes me wonder, if people hate these characters so much, then why do they still read about them? Why do they post mean things about every article they're in? No one is making them do it, so why be so caught up in hating something?

It would be so much more productive if they put their energy into finding things they enjoy instead of trying to drag down other people. It's a hard habit to break, I know, I've done it myself.

[VolcanikTiger86]

All I can say is I don't want to see diversity reduced to sidekicks, and we probably will not get that. There is a danger of this if you over-play the mentor thing. It can be patronising.

I don’t think it would be bad having some and that’s the important word some of the new characters be protégé’s to the old ones, Miles, Kamala, Sam, Riri and Moon Girl so that you have a place to build them up.

And please leave Mighty Thor as is. It is a hugely successful book, predates any diversity initiative and is being done for totally different reasons.

I could be wrong but pretty sure it doesn’t predate the diversity push which began around infinity/ inhumanity which by the way was a year before The Mighty Thor started. Plus it was in 2014 that the first volume was released and just check out the thread title.

If any of the books gets a tick for being both well written and also female focused then that book does, because the story comes first on that title.

Wish more books were like that

February 2015 and 2017:

74	63	Miles Morales Ultimate Spider-Man	10	$3.99	Marvel	29,321
61	49	Spider-Man	13	$3.99	Marvel	34,195

So yeah, Miles actually sells better now than he did before Secret Wars.

Cheers thanks for the info.

It was never confirmed on-page, but it was confirmed off-page by Greg Pak himself.

Attachment 47524

See even in your reply Greg Pak says it himself “touched on by any other writer or if anything has changed” so something changed the EIC said he was straight without a need for a retcon as nothing was confirmed on page and the writer played it safe.
Second thing
“But yes according to the story Fred and I wrote Hercules slept with Northstar”
Once again according to the writer it happened but according to the pages we got it was iffy and the editors ignore it completely no one is wrong.

[MarvelMaster616]

Like G.Willow Wilson said, it's about representation not diversity.

It's about showing that different types of people exist and sometimes reflecting different experiences. Ms Marvel caught on not just because she's a female hero, it caught on because she represented a whole lot of PEOPLE that aren't really being represented in popular entertainment (young people of faith who are true to their faith and aren't be parodied). Not to mention that it's a very good title.

What the companies (Marvel and others) are doing is admirable, granted they make mistakes (like Bioware did Mass Effect Andromeda, the whole making the female characters intentionally uglier than the real models is shameful and if it's true as it's been reported then Bioware have really gone down a rabbit hole) but Marvel should continue to try and represent the world outside despite some ridiculous retailer complaints.

I'm not going to go into the bullshit arguments about how Miles Morales doesn't work (it absolutely does, that's why he's been successful) or how Riri Williams hasn't shown how brilliant she is (she has, all throughout her title) because they are just bullshit.

And I agree with G. Willow Wilson. She seems to understand that the whole "diversity" concept has become somewhat lost in identity politics. It has gotten to the point where diversity is more a gimmick than a concept. Even though Miles and Jane Foster earned their roles in a fairly cohesive way, it still comes off as a gimmick of sorts. It gives the impression that Marvel isn't trying to tell a meaningful story with their characters and is just pandering in hopes of growing their market. The challenge for them is growing that market while not alienating their established customer base. And honestly, I can't help but sympathize for those at Marvel trying to do that because it's a hard challenge to overcome.

Characters like Spider-Man, Tony Stark, and the X-men cast such a large shadow. It's very difficult for Moon Girl, Riri Williams, and Miles Morales to shine within that shadow. It is possible, but it's very hard. It can still be done though. G. Willow Wilson proved that with Kamala Khan and she did it without taking anything away from Carol Danvers. Jason Aaron did that too with Jane Foster. When she became Thor, Odinson's story didn't end. It just went in a different direction. You could say the same thing about Dr. Doom becoming the new Iron Man after Secret Wars, but he's not a minority so that doesn't win any "diversity" points.

I have seen other companies like Bioware trying to pander, albeit with limited success. In many cases, it's painfully transparent what they're trying to do. It's basically just virtue signaling in hopes of capturing an untapped segment of the market, but this can backfire. Joss Whedon himself found that out with what happened to Black Widow in Age of Ultron.

If nothing else, G. Willow Wilson proves that representation can be done and done well. It's just very difficult and can't be forced. Marvel, being a business that wants to make a profit, can't help but try and force it in hopes of making a profit. Missteps are bound to happen. That's just how business and society work. But I think she has the right idea.

[Prof. Warren]

I'm more upset that to put Riri as the lead in the Ironman book they

Killed Rhodey who would have been the obvious choice to take over
Put Tony in Coma and made him an A.I. (Evil A.I Tony will be on the way soon I'm sure of it)
And completely and utterly ignored Lila Rhodes (Rhodey's niece) is in the Marvel Universe who is not only a prodigy engineer but was mentored by Tony Stark.

I'm not happy about Rhodey being killed. He's a great character and even though, this being comics, he could always come back I think his death left a sour taste in a lot of fan's mouths.

A.I. Tony is awesome. He's a great presence in the book right now and if he turns evil I'm fine with that - it'll probably just lead to an evil A.I. Tony vs. actual Tony once he comes out of his coma and that's a story I'd love to read.

And suggesting Lila as Ironheart is like saying that the only important features about Riri are her skin color and gender. Bendis obviously has plans for Riri that wouldn't be possible with Lila. It's not as though they're interchangeable characters.

[nnelg]

I would guess that bad sales are more down to s**tty stories than diversity (like a predominately white cast is somehow 'diverse').

Wouldn't know for sure tho. I've barely read a Marvel title in years.

EDIT: Just to add (bearing in mind that i've not read every comment in the thread and found this discussion through major newspapers), with all the comments regarding POC and bi-racial characters, I've yet to see a comment complaining about Iron-man being a fat-nosed Eastern European guy.

I bitched about Dr. Doom being renamed Ironman. Victor von Doom is above Ironman. He feels he is above the gods. Why would he take the name of Ironman. I have posted this a few times before.

[Vegeta]

I know a lot of people were angry when Ben Reilly and Doctor Octopus took over as Spider-Man. Sure, they have fans now, but the outrage was still there. (Certainly enough for 90's Marvel to have to reverse course and make a big proclamation that Peter Parker, the one "true Spider-Man" was back.) But I suppose that's different, somehow.

[Panfoot]

I bitched about Dr. Doom being renamed Ironman. Victor von Doom is above Ironman. He feels he is above the gods. Why would he take the name of Ironman. I have posted this a few times before.

I think the majority of the people reading that book are just Doom fans who are happy to have a Doom book. From what little i've read, it seems like if you just changed the title and put him in his old armor there would be no major changes to that book at all. To me it just comes off as another "Bendis wanted to write ___ so the just put the into his current book(s)" decision and the book seems pretty irrelevant anyway, he didn't take over Invincible and doesn't appear as "the" Iron Man(Yes, yes I know he's calling himself Iron Man and Riri is going by Iron Heart, but in the wider universe Riri seems to be getting around and has the red and gold going for her while until the upcoming Avengers story Doom has been only in his own book as far as I know). It's still more Bendis nonsense following his first awful volume.

[Drops Of Venus]

See even in your reply Greg Pak says it himself “touched on by any other writer or if anything has changed” so something changed the EIC said he was straight without a need for a retcon as nothing was confirmed on page and the writer played it safe.
Second thing
“But yes according to the story Fred and I wrote Hercules slept with Northstar”
Once again according to the writer it happened but according to the pages we got it was iffy and the editors ignore it completely no one is wrong.

Pak didn't confirm any change happened. He said that it was canon when he wrote and that he DOESN'T KNOW what happened ever since because he wasn't writing the characters anymore. He just pointed out a reasonable possibility based on the fact that the things you write as a comic book writer can be changed later. But there wasn't any actual on-page change ever since.

I don't know which editor you're referring to, but if you're talking about the whole ''Hercules is straight'' debacle with Axel Alonso, he actually acknowledged that he was wrong in a later interview with CBR. He admitted that there were parts of Herc's history that were unnoticed by editorial when he made the statement. And then on that same series, Dan Abnett made a joke on the last issue as a nod to Herc's bisexuality, so as it stands, I'm confident to say 616 Herc's bisexuality is canon.

[Moon Ronin]

And suggesting Lila as Ironheart is like saying that the only important features about Riri are her skin color and gender. Bendis obviously has plans for Riri that wouldn't be possible with Lila. It's not as though they're interchangeable characters.

I'm not saying anything like that Lila would have been the logical choice to go with what ever race or gender. Also her Concept is set up but her story has yet to be fleshed out and would be very malleable to work with. I think it is more of a case of Bendis "look what I made" and an absent Marvel editorial staff, and that is why I really can't get into the new Iron man. Point is that its not that Tony was replaced with a young black girl that has me disliking the book, it has to do with how he was replaced. If Riri were a young white boy I'd feel the same, I gave it a shot and just cannot get into it. If you like it that is great but all decent about the book is not about race or gender.

[Ianbarreilles]

I'm not happy about Rhodey being killed. He's a great character and even though, this being comics, he could always come back I think his death left a sour taste in a lot of fan's mouths.

A.I. Tony is awesome. He's a great presence in the book right now and if he turns evil I'm fine with that - it'll probably just lead to an evil A.I. Tony vs. actual Tony once he comes out of his coma and that's a story I'd love to read.

And suggesting Lila as Ironheart is like saying that the only important features about Riri are her skin color and gender. Bendis obviously has plans for Riri that wouldn't be possible with Lila. It's not as though they're interchangeable characters.

It would be something if they kept James Rhodes dead it would actually make his death during civil war ii more tragic but I can see why readers would rather he not stay dead.

I agree that he didn't need to die though matter of fact Tony stark didn't even need to be put into a coma at the end of civil war ii.

[nnelg]

I think the majority of the people reading that book are just Doom fans who are happy to have a Doom book. From what little i've read, it seems like if you just changed the title and put him in his old armor there would be no major changes to that book at all. To me it just comes off as another "Bendis wanted to write ___ so the just put the into his current book(s)" decision and the book seems pretty irrelevant anyway, he didn't take over Invincible and doesn't appear as "the" Iron Man(Yes, yes I know he's calling himself Iron Man and Riri is going by Iron Heart, but in the wider universe Riri seems to be getting around and has the red and gold going for her while until the upcoming Avengers story Doom has been only in his own book as far as I know). It's still more Bendis nonsense following his first awful volume.

I buy it because of Doom. But dammit the name change and the armor annoys me. Also I don't like Ultimate Reed as the enemy. I don't have a problem with Riri. I have never liked Ironman though.

[Username taken]

I disagree. Look at Captain America. When Steve died and Bucky became there were more complaints. It was the same with Superior Spiderman. I complained about the writing in Thor. The whisper. The treatment of Odin. I the female protagonist was the problem then why do I post about the high quality of JiM staring Sif. If Stark stiil had his own title while RiRi had her title there wouldn't be many complaints. Look at Wolverine. Both titles were published at almost the same time. There aren't that many complaints about them. The reason why is because they Wolverine with basically Wolverine. I bought Sam Wilson. He made since as a replacement. It was good. Then they turned Steve into a nazi. Then I dropped Sam Wilson in protest. Any time a popular character is replaced we bitch and whine. Stop pretending otherwise.

I don't agree with the bolded part. At all. On these boards, there weren't many complaints if any at all.

If anything Bucky seemed to be celebrated when he became Captain America. Although that can be chalked up to him being Captain America's partner but his being white didn't hurt at all.

[He-Kal]

I really don't think it's that readers don't like diversity--they don't like having stuff shoe horned into their books and accept it.
Like Iceman being gay, Ironman is a girl (that came out of nowhere and had no solid connection with Tony before), on and on it goes.
If you make a NEW character that has no background like Miles Morales or Spidey Gwen, people will love it. But when you take established characters and throw out things or try to drill things in, the fans balk. DC figured this out and that's why you had Rebirth. Marvel Rebirth inc...3....2....1.....

[_Feely_]

I bitched about Dr. Doom being renamed Ironman. Victor von Doom is above Ironman. He feels he is above the gods. Why would he take the name of Ironman. I have posted this a few times before.

Oooo, you're my first. Sexy.

BTW, you were wonderful