R.I.P. Marvel's 'progressive' era, 2012-2017

[Shirayuki]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_Comics

I don't think that really disproves what he said.

[penthotal]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_Comics

? Which character created by Image founders it's iconic or at least still popular? Spawn with its 15k monthly sales? Savage Dragon that almost never make the top 300? The Wildstorm characters that DC tried to relaunch time and time again without success? The best selling Youngblood? Pitt? Maxx? What's your point? Probably even Sleepwalker would sell better than Savage Dragon, and Black Night was canceled with sales higher than Spawn. We are talking about creating properties that succeed and find a place in the market, not creating characters that nobody cares about and are bought by few thousands people even when they had a movie. Mighty Thor is marvel second best selling ongoing, Ms. Marvel it's their digital hit and TPB Juggernaut. What Image has to do with that? Except Walking Dead that's become a popular phenomenon thank to a tv show (that after a few years it's starting to lose a lot of viewers already) which Image character fit this description?

EDIT: and consider that Images successes of the latest years, while very profitable for their creators and often very entertaining, at their level of sales would be almost all canceled if they were Marvel or DC books, except for Saga and, maybe, Wicked + Divine and East of West, Sex Criminals and Bitch Planet.

[Cloudman]

Did you buy Mosaic?

If people believe this, they have to support Marvel when they don't do this.

Should people have to buy something they don't want in order to appease others?

Should everyone who says they want diversity in Marvel comics have been forced to buy Mosaic too?

[ishikabe]

His point it's not sensible because it doesn't take into account the reality of comics and the comics market, at least as I believed it is and I have explained in my post above this.

What's weird is Darth Maul and the Walking Dead aren't characters created in the 60's. And rounding out the Top 50 for sales, Venom and Deadpool are not ancient icons either. Basically the comic market doesn't seem to want replacement heroes.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...7/2017-02.html

[ishikabe]

? Which character created by Image founders it's iconic or at least still popular? Spawn with its 15k monthly sales? Savage Dragon that almost never make the top 300? The Wildstorm characters that DC tried to relaunch time and time again without success? The best selling Youngblood? Pitt? Maxx? What's your point? Probably even Sleepwalker would sell better than Savage Dragon, and Black Night was canceled with sales higher than Spawn. We are talking about creating properties that succeed and find a place in the market, not creating characters that nobody cares about and are bought by few thousands people even when they had a movie. Mighty Thor is marvel second best selling ongoing, Ms. Marvel it's their digital hit and TPB Juggernaut. What Image has to do with that? Except Walking Dead that's become a popular phenomenon thank to a tv show (that after a few years it's starting to lose a lot of viewers already) which Image character fit this description?

EDIT: and consider that Images successes of the latest years, while very profitable for their creators and often very entertaining, at their level of sales would be almost all canceled if they were Marvel or DC books, except for Saga and, maybe, Wicked + Divine and East of West, Sex Criminals and Bitch Planet.

There's this cultural icon that anyone knows next to Batman and Superman called the Walking Dead. 6th place in sales for the latest data.

It has a TV show too that people seem to like. 4th in ratings too. I don't see any Marvel TV shows up there. :/

https://www.google.com/search?q=tv+s...hrome&ie=UTF-8

[Inversed]

Figured this would suck from the start, and yep no one's buying all the "change" at Marvel. Peter Parker isn't Tony Stark. Riri isn't Iron Man. Venom IS Eddie Brock. etc etc etc etc

The problem you have to look out for when they're bringing back original characters, you have to be sure it's done right so that they're not just regressing back to the "status quo". Case in point, Eddie Brock Venom. Sure, that's the classic Venom people love, but people also love Flash Thompson Venom, and through the years they've grown to develop both characters, and especially the symbiote, into something new and interesting. And now it's like "Nope it's just pure hatred of Spider-Man. Again." I really hope there's more to it.

So if/when Tony, Thor, Logan, Hulk, etc. do come back, I want them to go forward, do something new and special to make them returning worth it, not just go back to the same old same old motions, because that's what they did before. It's all a balance that needs to be kept in check.

[Drops Of Venus]

I think it's important to note that it's not even just brand new characters that are hard to sell on today's market. I mean, Marvel has given a shot to a LOT of classic characters who are original and not related to any legacy recently like Black Knight, Hercules, Mockingbird, Hyperion, Nighthawk, Prowler, etc. And what happened? They still flopped. So yeah, to expect Marvel to just create a stream of successful new characters when a bunch of their old ones still struggle to take off is incredibly unrealistic.

[lollie_poppy]

This is fucking retarded, there has always been diversity in Marvel comics. Heck there is a whole franchise that is an allegory to oppressed minority, this so damn stupid, as if Riri Williams is the first black woman superhero that have ever existed.

People who complain that there is no diversity in Marvel appaently don't read too much comic.

Just to name a few:

Black Panther (black)
Storm (black woman)
Magneto (Jewish)
Wanda and Pietro (Romani)
Kitty Pryde (Jewish)
Karma (Lesbian Vietnamese)
Dani Moonstar (Native woman)
Jubilee (Asian)
Sunspot (Black Latino)
Nothstar (Homosexual)
Dust (Muslim woman)

[penthotal]

There's this cultural icon that anyone knows next to Batman and Superman called the Walking Dead. 6th place in sales for the latest data.

It has a TV show too that people seem to like. 4th in ratings too. I don't see any Marvel TV shows up there. :/

https://www.google.com/search?q=tv+s...hrome&ie=UTF-8

I don't think you understand what a cultural icon is. Maybe looking at Walking Dead ratings from a year ago and from this year you could better understand the difference between «cultural icon» and «temporary phenomenon».

What's weird is Darth Maul and the Walking Dead aren't characters created in the 60's. And rounding out the Top 50 for sales, Venom and Deadpool are not ancient icons either. Basically the comic market doesn't seem to want replacement heroes.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...7/2017-02.html

If they don't want replacement heroes so why Thor it's Marvel second best selling ongoing? Why Miles is successful? Why the buy All New Wolverine?

Have you read the chart you linked me?

Mighty Thor 40,175
Deadpool 38,560
Venom 38,337
Invincible Iron Man 36,600
Spider Man 34,195


To me that doesn't look like «people don't want legacy characters». Also, Deadpool in 5 month is gone from 60k to 38k. Also, Venom and Darth Maul just started, what they have to do with long time success and longevity? You seem confused.

[skyvolt2000]

But this is how Top Cow/Image comics got started.

Don't forget Milestone, IDW and Valiant.

In other words, female characters and non-white characters are fine as long as they stay in their lane and don't take the spotlight...fuck that.

I have to correct you on this.

It's as long as CERTAIN ones stay in their place and don't take the spotlight.

Green Lantern anybody? Jessica & Simon can take Hal's spot in JL & GL main book-no one goes off. Yet how many essays of hate have we seen with John Stewart?

People keep saying DC is better at diversity but never actually show any proof, Cyborg has been problematic since nu52, Baz and his co-star have also been problematic( especially Baz ) and that's not even getting into the fiasco over Stewart or the mess with Batwing

They don't hear you.

Every time DC has tried, they were met with backlash-especially McDuffie's JLA run.

New 52 and on has plenty of issues-yet because those issues aside from Duke & Wally-haven't messed up that many books. No one is complaining aside from those two.

You can't say DC is better when most of the POC are MIA or in the background as support cast.

Should people have to buy something they don't want in order to appease others?

Should everyone who says they want diversity in Marvel comics have been forced to buy Mosaic too?

That is the trait by trolls (not Matt Murdock mind you). They expect you to buy ALL of those "diverse" books if you are truly about diversity. You are not free to buy what you want.

Every time a POC, LGBT or certain female lead books fail-that is the excuse used.

Yet when it's say Vision-it's folks don't know QUALITY. A word never used for POC (especially black lead) books. They are bad by default.

[penthotal]

This is fucking retarded, there has always been diversity in Marvel comics. Heck there is a whole franchise that is an allegory to oppressed minority, this so damn stupid, as if Riri Williams is the first black woman superhero that have ever existed.

People who complain that there is no diversity in Marvel appaently don't read too much comic.

Just to name a few:

Black Panther (black)
Storm (black woman)
Magneto (Jewish)
Wanda and Pietro (Romani)
Kitty Pryde (Jewish)
Karma (Lesbian Vietnamese)
Dani Moonstar (Native woman)
Jubilee (Asian)
Sunspot (Black Latino)
Nothstar (Homosexual)
Dust (Muslim woman)

Well, except two, all these characters never had their book, only one has a book right now, and some of them seldom appear on comics nowadays. I think when people refer to diversity they mean giving diverse characters their book and a leading role. When your whole line (until just a couple of years ago) is made of book starring white males and among 300 characters you have 20 there are not white male and they only appear on team books with tens of characters in them, calling it diversity it's a bit of a stretch.

[JKtheMac]

What's weird is Darth Maul and the Walking Dead aren't characters created in the 60's. And rounding out the Top 50 for sales, Venom and Deadpool are not ancient icons either. Basically the comic market doesn't seem to want replacement heroes.

The reality of mainstream comics is the Mickey Mouse act made old characters more valuable to corporations than original characters.

Although I occasionally read an interesting Captain America comic I don't think he is a particularly relevant character if you stick to his roots, and his comics don't sell well when they do that, but potentially he has more recognition and brand awareness than Ms. Marvel so they need to find ways to use him and his name. That's a problem that Marvel have to deal with, because many fans think he should still be fighting the Second World War or the Cold War.

I don't like Superman and he doesn't say anything to me about my life but he is one of the most recognisable properties in comics. Does he actually sell? Not always.

Saddled with this legacy neither Marvel or DC are encouraged to create new characters. The writers often don't want to bring their character ideas to the table because they could be interpreted as secondary characters and effectively not be in any way controlled by them. So when, for a wonderful period we actually get innovation and fresh ideas at Marvel we should be celebrating that, but there will always be a slowly dwindling but influential core that will resist every tiny inch of that innovation.

There is an attraction to using old characters and doing something interesting and relevant with them, and some writers do great work doing that. The older fans are not always understanding of that. By necessity the writers need to take risks to actually sell, to be relevant and different which will turn off some readers.

This whole thing is a challenge that Marvel and DC have to face every week. Recently they have met that challenge. This downturn may be a temporary blip, but downturns make people take stock.

[ishikabe]

If they don't want replacement heroes so why Thor it's Marvel second best selling ongoing? Why Miles is successful? Why the buy All New Wolverine?

Have you read the chart you linked me?

Mighty Thor 40,175
Deadpool 38,560
Venom 38,337
Invincible Iron Man 36,600
Spider Man 34,195

Yes I did read it. But do you get what you are implying here? So if Darth Maul doesn't count towards recent success by being a #1 issue, then their first "diverse" title comes in at a lowly 41st place. I remember not too long in the past Marvel had multiple Top 20 titles. I guess diversity isn't selling like the old guard did. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Frontier]

The problem you have to look out for when they're bringing back original characters, you have to be sure it's done right so that they're not just regressing back to the "status quo". Case in point, Eddie Brock Venom. Sure, that's the classic Venom people love, but people also love Flash Thompson Venom, and through the years they've grown to develop both characters, and especially the symbiote, into something new and interesting. And now it's like "Nope it's just pure hatred of Spider-Man. Again." I really hope there's more to it.

So if/when Tony, Thor, Logan, Hulk, etc. do come back, I want them to go forward, do something new and special to make them returning worth it, not just go back to the same old same old motions, because that's what they did before. It's all a balance that needs to be kept in check.

I think balance is key.

Like, I want Brock to be Venom again and to be back as a Spider-Man antagonist, but he shouldn't be the exact same Venom he was back in the 90's. With all the development he's and the Symbiote have gone through, they should be far more compelling and interesting back together rather then just being reduced back to "eating brains" and going after Spider-Man for little reason.

Conversely, we have a situation in Spider-Man where Parker Industries is cited as "progressing" Peter Parker as a character and "using his full potential" when more often then not he's just riffing on Tony Stark and Batman or proving to be fairly inept or ill-suited to running a company, while the family man Peter Parker in Renew Your Vows feels more like a natural progression for the character despite the Superhero family dynamic.

For my money I'd say DC Rebirth has generally brought back a lot of classic characters, villains, and relationships back to the forefront and generally in their most iconic and recognizable forms, but have also still found a way to play them out in new ways.

[Digifiend]

Well, except two, all these characters never had their book,

Black Panther (black) - has TWO current books
Storm (black woman) - had a solo prior to Secret Wars
Magneto (Jewish) - Ditto
Wanda and Pietro (Romani) - Both have had solos, Wanda's only recently ended.
Kitty Pryde (Jewish) - had her own book in the 90s... as a SHIELD agent!
Jubilee (Asian) - has had her own book in the early 2000s.

Also, Sunspot has his own Avengers team.