R.I.P. Marvel's 'progressive' era, 2012-2017

[The Negative Zone]

Its true. All legacy characters get a degree of hate if they replace a character, but its also true fans get much angrier when they think a "political agenda" is involved. Nobody called Ben Reilly and Superior Spider-Man a "pc agenda" or "pandering to white people." Their race wasn't brought into the outrage.

People can keep repeating they just hate "bad comics" and aren't acting racist, but when I see fans angrily hating on characters and bringing their race into the issue I can't take it seriously.

[Inversed]

Something interesting I just thought of Re:Riri Williams in Iron Man

What if instead of Riri, Toni Ho, the Iron Patriot of New Avengers/U.S.Avengers, took over the Invincible Iron Man book and basically took Riri's place? You think that would be better or about the same?

[nnelg]

Something interesting I just thought of Re:Riri Williams in Iron Man

What if instead of Riri, Toni Ho, the Iron Patriot of New Avengers/U.S.Avengers, took over the Invincible Iron Man book and basically took Riri's place? You think that would be better or about the same?

About the same

[Moon Ronin]

Something interesting I just thought of Re:Riri Williams in Iron Man

What if instead of Riri, Toni Ho, the Iron Patriot of New Avengers/U.S.Avengers, took over the Invincible Iron Man book and basically took Riri's place? You think that would be better or about the same?

Toni is on her own path away from the "Iron" books, I don't think it would work too well personally. Though to replace Tony with Toni would would also deny Bendis with the "look what I made" which would bring joy to my life.

[Username taken]

Its true. All legacy characters get a degree of hate if they replace a character, but its also true fans get much angrier when they think a "political agenda" is involved. Nobody called Ben Reilly and Superior Spider-Man a "pc agenda" or "pandering to white people." Their race wasn't brought into the outrage.

People can keep repeating they just hate "bad comics" and aren't acting racist, but when I see fans angrily hating on characters and bringing their race into the issue I can't take it seriously.

That's just thing. People get angry when white characters replace white heroes but the outrage is more severe when a minority and/or female comes in.

I'm stunned that people are forgetting the racist vitriol that Miles Morales received (I can remember because I was here. Even some idiot retailer sent out a racist tweet. Don't even get me started on the yahoo news and USA today forums). Same with Ms Marvel, people were even posting anti-Islamic messages right here on CBR. Are folks forgetting all the pandering talk??

People hate their favorite heroes being changed and yes Marvel went in a little hard but it will be disingenuous to deny the more severe outrage when Miles Morales and Kamala Khan were introduced.

[nnelg]

Its true. All legacy characters get a degree of hate if they replace a character, but its also true fans get much angrier when they think a "political agenda" is involved. Nobody called Ben Reilly and Superior Spider-Man a "pc agenda" or "pandering to white people." Their race wasn't brought into the outrage.

People can keep repeating they just hate "bad comics" and aren't acting racist, but when I see fans angrily hating on characters and bringing their race into the issue I can't take it seriously.

Marvel announced plans to broaden their fan base. Later that year Sam is Captain America. Then Jane Thor. Look at Marvel now. P. C Agenda. People that like it defend it and refuse to admit or accept it. That doesn't mean we are incorrect. It looks like Marvel is trying to pander to X-men fans. I accept it and I'm looking forward to it. Their isn't anything wrong with P. C. Agendas.

[nnelg]

That's just thing. People get angry when white characters replace white heroes but the outrage is more severe when a minority and/or female comes in.

I'm stunned that people are forgetting the racist vitriol that Miles Morales received (I can remember because I was here. Even some idiot retailer sent out a racist tweet. Don't even get me started on the yahoo news and USA today forums). Same with Ms Marvel, people were even posting anti-Islamic messages right here on CBR. Are folks forgetting all the pandering talk??

People hate their favorite heroes being changed and yes Marvel went in a little hard but it will be disingenuous to deny the more severe outrage when Miles Morales and Kamala Khan were introduced.

The outrage is the same. Also I recall everyone saying the name Ms. Marvel was outdated and sexist when Carol became Captain Marvel. Why is the name ok for Kamala? If there is so much outrage over Miles and Kamala where are all the complaints. All I ever hear is praise for Kamala. How was there outrage he didn't replace the 616 Peter so it didn't matter.

[Fused]

You can't have an honest discussion about racism and misogyny if your point of view is that racism and misogyny either don't exist or that they're "tangential". If you want to assert that negative reactions to a minority or female legacy hero has nothing to do with their race or gender and that white legacy heroes garner the exact same sort of push back, that's up to you. But that's just not reality.

Comic fans react badly to many changes but the reaction when it comes to women and minorities always takes on a much different tone.

I remember picking up Totally Awesome Hulk thinking the concept was anything but. I was already resigned to the state of Marvel comics and had already dropped all their titles yet still found myself resenting Amadeus Cho and every other shoehorned progressive change editorial had put in effect in recent years. Someone not sharing my opinions on the matter might even accuse me of low-key racism or outright bigotry depending on who you're talking to. Luckily for me I have the "privilege" of being Asian-American in this matter. When it comes to comic books, however, that's not my primary identity. I'm a comic book fan first and foremost and Banner is my guy. Maybe I would even give Cho a chance at being remotely awesome if it didn't require Banner being offed.

This doesn't mean I suffer from some sort of internalized self-loathing either. I love seeing Psylocke, Colleen Wing and Katana being realized in live-action. My Danny Rand has always been white and the social justice mob demanding he not be don't even realize they should be clamoring for Shang Chi to be unveiled as the ultimate martial artist that he is, but they're oblivious to that character's existence, because as we now all know, those people aren't really buying comics.

[Baron of Faltine]

I think alot of the harsh negative reaction comes from outside the comic book community now days with announcements all over the internet and social media when a legacy is changed to a minority or a woman. There will be some push back within the community but as many stated that is common with any change with the industry, and yes there will be some that see it as a racial or gender thing but I don't think that it is the majority of decent within the comic book community.

Look at the new Wasp, Janet fans hate her, they want her book to fail due to the fact that Janet has been around from the start of the Avengers and has never had a solo book. Now if the new Wasp were a person of color it would have been news on social media, internet news and so on. The same people within the comic community will still hate her for the same reasons as before but the loud troll and non comic readers with the causal " I saw the ant man movie and Wasp is white!" will make those comic fans be called raciest because they don't like the new Wasp and stand in the way of "diversity".

Is very complciated issue when come to fictional characters, as they are...well kind of made up. Fictional. And as such, theoretically open to interpretation and literally re-imagination(how many version of fictional Jack the ripper we got? My mom got to see a Romeo and Juliet Ballet...where everyone was male. And she explained me that it was very complicated, a reallt hard work of choreography). But I think in recent times we come around to realize HOW import pop-culture actually is in forming the collective consciouness, more than high culture, for good or bad, and this imply one thing. Responsibility.
You are not just kid stuff. Because kid stuff is not worthless. It does influence mind, forge biases and assumption. If all Heroes are White and Males, create the assumption that girl and non white people can't be heroes. It all scientist cause, willingly or accidentally, disaster and tragedy whenever they try to do something, it make think that science it dnagerous and outright evil. If all heroes are jerks toward each other ALL THE DAMN TIME, well...you got the point. I think this is fundamentally the issue. You want to pubblish "classic" stories. OK. JUST avoid the pratfalls of past. You know like all the effin non-consensual implied sex here and there(apart the FAMOUS Carol debacle with that horrific timetravel forced imprgnation thing, there the whoel celestial madonna, or the times during act of vengeance that apparently Hulk/Joe Fixit raped Selene and she liked it apparently...I remained speechless after i had read it...and it was played nearly for laugh....I still remeber it...). Not all past is gold.
....

[Doc Sonic]

I can't imagine that anyone in the real world would appreciate having their race, sex or sexual orientation framed as a political statement... it's rather objectifying.

[Moon Ronin]

That's just thing. People get angry when white characters replace white heroes but the outrage is more severe when a minority and/or female comes in.

I'm stunned that people are forgetting the racist vitriol that Miles Morales received (I can remember because I was here. Even some idiot retailer sent out a racist tweet. Don't even get me started on the yahoo news and USA today forums). Same with Ms Marvel, people were even posting anti-Islamic messages right here on CBR. Are folks forgetting all the pandering talk??

People hate their favorite heroes being changed and yes Marvel went in a little hard but it will be disingenuous to deny the more severe outrage when Miles Morales and Kamala Khan were introduced.

When a minority is a legacy hero it makes the news out side the comic book community. The majority of that anger that it is a minority is from outside the comic book community most of the people up set more than likely have never picked up a comic book in there life. Descent about the change/addition in the comic community is not based on race or gender for the majority, its the rattling empty can that gets noticed with blanket call of racist and misogyny to any one that disagrees.

[Digifiend]

The outrage is the same. Also I recall everyone saying the name Ms. Marvel was outdated and sexist when Carol became Captain Marvel. Why is the name ok for Kamala?

Because she's a teenager. Carol was at least a decade older when she started out.

[The Negative Zone]

Marvel announced plans to broaden their fan base. Later that year Sam is Captain America. Then Jane Thor. Look at Marvel now. P. C Agenda. People that like it defend it and refuse to admit or accept it. That doesn't mean we are incorrect. It looks like Marvel is trying to pander to X-men fans. I accept it and I'm looking forward to it. Their isn't anything wrong with P. C. Agendas.

I don't think anyone should really call the inclusion of other groups a "pc agenda." Even if you don't see it as a bad thing or not. It doesn't sound like a good term to use like Doc Sonic said.

[skyvolt2000]

Marvel announced plans to broaden their fan base. Later that year Sam is Captain America. Then Jane Thor. Look at Marvel now. P. C Agenda. People that like it defend it and refuse to admit or accept it. That doesn't mean we are incorrect. It looks like Marvel is trying to pander to X-men fans. I accept it and I'm looking forward to it. Their isn't anything wrong with P. C. Agendas.

YES it is.

All I heard is every single minority lead book does not but trash white folks and scream racism.

MAINLY by folks who don't READ the book. Let me repeat they don't READ the book are the loudest criers.

Folks who scream that they hate Black Panther yet when ASKED what book or scene caused that-guess who can't answer.

They only see a POC and that is all they need to go off.

WHOSE fault is it that when Marvel tries to use original guys like Panther, Falcon (as himself) and others-that say crybaby group attacks?

It has gotten to the point anything with a POC gets ATTACKED from day one.

[dragonmp93]

Slott said he was getting death threats for what he was doing in SM.

People wanting to troll will troll. It doesnt really say anything about anything except that there are people willing to go a bit nuts over certain things

Spencer got a lot of death threads because of the Captain Hydra reveal, and it wasnt even Sam, it was Steve Rogers, the blue-eyed blonde white american cisgender straight guy.

You can't have an honest discussion about racism and misogyny if your point of view is that racism and misogyny either don't exist or that they're "tangential". If you want to assert that negative reactions to a minority or female legacy hero has nothing to do with their race or gender and that white legacy heroes garner the exact same sort of push back, that's up to you. But that's just not reality.

Comic fans react badly to many changes but the reaction when it comes to women and minorities always takes on a much different tone.

I doubt that absolutely all the complains are because of sexism/racism.

I disagree. Were that the case, there would be no animosity toward Mile Morales.
Back in the day, around the time of Yost's run on X-Force, there was a rather vocal anti-X-23 sentiment pervading the X-boards. Some (like myself) really liked her, but others just hated her something terrible and seemed to feel as though her mere presence somehow besmirched or in some way undermined Logan's legacy.
Time proved to be the biggest factor in cooling these angry feelings.
And perhaps the same will hold true for characters like Riri Williams, Jane Foster, Miles Morales et al.

But the things is that we live in an instant society.