Marvel wanted a single Peter why not just marry off Ben?

[Spiderfang]

This thread is in regards to the Peter Parker & Mary-Jane Watson marriage and events pertaining to the 90's Clone Saga and One More Day. So as the title asks; "If Marvel wanted Peter Parker to be single (or at least unmarried) so badly, why not just marry Ben off"? By this I mean why not have had Mary Jane leave Peter (part in due to stress of losing the baby and second due to marital strain/depression), marry her off or at least get her together with Ben and they both leave town for a while -- this way Ben doesn't have to die, and there would be no bizarre magickal sell your marriage to Satan type scenario in the future.

People might ask "why Ben, he's just a blond Peter!" While Ben was a lot like Peter, emotionally and attitude-wise he was a pretty surly and more neutral/indifferent-oriented individual and was always second-guessing himself until he officially became Spiderman. He was very conflicted and had enough issues compounded to make him standout from Peter in my opinion. Ben always felt like an outsider, or an outcast and MJ while she could very easily be reminded of Peter in Ben, she could also see similarities in the fact that they both feel like "second fiddle" to Peter/Spidey and somewhat neglected or emotionally devalued (factor in all of the Jackal headgames and MJ's abusive father).

Marvel could have also addressed the issue of Peter being the "legit" Spiderman one of two ways; 1) they could have progressed as normally with Norman and the Goblin returning except without MJ or Ben dying, and have Norman reveal that it was all just a "mind game" in order to ruin Peter's marriage and wreck his life or 2) simply have Peter believing in himself and not really caring whether or not he is the original and just valuing being a hero for the people and good person over being the genuine article.

I'd love to get some feedback on this idea.

[Steven Caldwell]

Just be thankful they haven't made Ben Reilly a Hispanic girl that has one gimp leg and is 12 years old.

[boots]

Just be thankful they haven't made Ben Reilly a Hispanic girl that has one gimp leg and is 12 years old.

they already made the "ben reilly" equivalent clone a female in ultimate universe and from all reports, it was pretty successful. as for a disabled superhero, while you're obviously trying to mock them, why not? i'm all for more representation not less.

[WebLurker]

They actually kind of addressed this in the Real Clone Saga graphic novel. In that version, they never figured out who was the original and who was the clone, but when they intially thought it was Peter, MJ opinion came down to A.) She was convinced he was the original and B.) regardless, he was the man she loved and wanted to raise her family with.

Also, I suspect a lot of people who are in the "I hate OMD" club are in it because they want to see Peter and MJ as a couple (married or otherwise). So, trying to find an alternate way to break them apart isn't going to fly, since they don't want to see them apart period.

they already made the "ben reilly" equivalent clone a female in ultimate universe and from all reports, it was pretty successful.

Yeah, Ultimate Jessica Drew was a generally good character, although she was most active in the Miles Morales era, as I recall.

as for a disabled superhero, while you're obviously trying to mock them, why not? i'm all for more representation not less.

I think some people find the Marvel era where there are more different characters less enjoyable than the more traditional setups, and since a lot of the changes involve more diversity in different ways, it's easy to mock and write it off as gimmicks. (Personally, I don't have a big deal with it, but I will concede that when I seek out comics, I want to find stuff that more in line with the classic versions of the characters -- more like the movies -- than the latest legacy character or new twist to an old formula.)

[Alan2099]

No matter how good a character Ben is, he's still going to be seen as the Mr. Pibb to Peter's Dr. Pepper. There's nothing wrong with him, but he's just not the real thing.

[boots]

They actually kind of addressed this in the Real Clone Saga graphic novel. In that version, they never figured out who was the original and who was the clone, but when they intially thought it was Peter, MJ opinion came down to A.) She was convinced he was the original and B.) regardless, he was the man she loved and wanted to raise her family with.

that was the only bit from that mini series that i thought was an improvement over the original saga. the "who cares who is the original" resolution made perfect sense for both their characters.

Also, I suspect a lot of people who are in the "I hate OMD" club are in it because they want to see Peter and MJ as a couple (married or otherwise). So, trying to find an alternate way to break them apart isn't going to fly, since they don't want to see them apart period.

well yeah...i don't think that crowd necessarily just want to see somebody anybody married . it's about peter + mj specifically.

I think some people find the Marvel era where there are more different characters less enjoyable than the more traditional setups, and since a lot of the changes involve more diversity in different ways, it's easy to mock and write it off as gimmicks. (Personally, I don't have a big deal with it, but I will concede that when I seek out comics, I want to find stuff that more in line with the classic versions of the characters -- more like the movies -- than the latest legacy character or new twist to an old formula.)

it shouldn't really ever be easy to mock someone with a disability.

there's always going to be a struggle to move from the classic (ie: the branded) iterations of the characters, especially for marvel who aren't known for that sort of progression. there will always be a dip in readership who simply want to keep reading about the same iconic characters that they always have, in the title they most associate with that character.

but the fact that some people take the most recent attempt to rebrand as an opportunity to attack the idea of different ethnicities, genders and disabled people though speaks more to an underlying mean streak than anything else. i have zero empathy for those guys.

[boots]

No matter how good a character Ben is, he's still going to be seen as the Mr. Pibb to Peter's Dr. Pepper. There's nothing wrong with him, but he's just not the real thing.

unless you buy that he is the real thing. which was the gamble marvel tried for...

[Alan2099]

unless you buy that he is the real thing. which was the gamble marvel tried for...

That's a different discussion altogether.

[WebLurker]

No matter how good a character Ben is, he's still going to be seen as the Mr. Pibb to Peter's Dr. Pepper. There's nothing wrong with him, but he's just not the real thing.

I think Miles Morales, Spidey 2099, and any other legacy/alternate Spider-Men they come up with have/will have the same problem.

that was the only bit from that mini series that i thought was an improvement over the original saga. the "who cares who is the original" resolution made perfect sense for both their characters.

The Real Clone Saga was the only installment in the '90s Clone Saga comic section of the franchise I read, so I have very little idea about how it was different or the same beyond a few random details.

well yeah...i don't think that crowd necessarily just want to see somebody anybody married . it's about peter + mj specifically.

Yeah, I think that's what I was trying to say, except more concise. While I'm sure there are anti-OMD people who have the opinion "Spider-Man and MJ being broke up was the right call or an acceptable one but OMD was the wrong way to do it" I think the majority just want to see the couple together period, so don't want a breakup.

it shouldn't really ever be easy to mock someone with a disability.

True.

there's always going to be a struggle to move from the classic (ie: the branded) iterations of the characters, especially for marvel who aren't known for that sort of progression. there will always be a dip in readership who simply want to keep reading about the same iconic characters that they always have, in the title they most associate with that character.

Yeah, I find that I tend toward this. I'm not a huge Miles Morales fan, largely because they had to write out Ultimate Peter Parker, the character that was the reason I read the Ultimate comics in the first place, to make him work. (Thanks to the resolution of Ultimate Peter's story, I have been able to enjoy the Ultimate Miles comics as a connected superhero comic, but it's just not the same.)

but the fact that some people take the most recent attempt to rebrand as an opportunity to attack the idea of different ethnicities, genders and disabled people though speaks more to an underlying mean streak than anything else. i have zero empathy for those guys.

I do find that rebranding with changes to create diversity (e.g. replacing a character) tend to degenerate really easily. The bigots have a field day and people who oppose or dislike the change for innocent reasons (they don't want their favorite character replaced, for example) get lumped with the bigots simply because they don't support a "progressive" change, or whatnot. It gets so political.

[Spiderfang]

No matter how good a character Ben is, he's still going to be seen as the Mr. Pibb to Peter's Dr. Pepper. There's nothing wrong with him, but he's just not the real thing.

Okay but my opening question was referring to the fact that Marvel wanted Peter to be single, or at least not married and having MJ run off with Ben would have killed two birds with one stone - just without killing anyone.

[boots]

Yeah, I find that I tend toward this. I'm not a huge Miles Morales fan, largely because they had to write out Ultimate Peter Parker, the character that was the reason I read the Ultimate comics in the first place, to make him work. (Thanks to the resolution of Ultimate Peter's story, I have been able to enjoy the Ultimate Miles comics as a connected superhero comic, but it's just not the same.)

totally fair enough.

to be very general, i think it depends on what type of reader you are or the reasons you read: is it for a good story? is it for a creator? or for a character?

i'm more in the former two camps, since i don't really buy into "the character" as an independent thing that can be sustained by a revolving creative team in the long term. i happily moved on to kyle rayner, wally west and ben reilly as a kid because they were handled well and i had zero loyalty to the previous iterations.

that being said, i do understand why some people have an attachment to the character above all else. once nathan young left misfits, the whole show was just less fun for me. but actors are a slightly different matter than character.

I do find that rebranding with changes to create diversity (e.g. replacing a character) tend to degenerate really easily. The bigots have a field day and people who oppose or dislike the change for innocent reasons (they don't want their favorite character replaced, for example) get lumped with the bigots simply because they don't support a "progressive" change, or whatnot. It gets so political.

to a degree all art is political. but i like to think that we can pick out the readers who are simply traditionalists from the bigots.

[Alan2099]

I think Miles Morales, Spidey 2099, and any other legacy/alternate Spider-Men they come up with have/will have the same problem.

I think Spider-man 2099 is enough of his own weird little niche that he's gets a pass, but that's ONLY when he's in his own time in the year 2099 and has nothing to do with the modern timelines.

The others I'll agree with. Miles is especially worthless at the moment.

Okay but my opening question was referring to the fact that Marvel wanted Peter to be single, or at least not married and having MJ run off with Ben would have killed two birds with one stone - just without killing anyone.

It still holds true. People that complain about MJ not being with Spider-man would be complaining about MJ not being with the "real" Spider-man or how they just paired her up with "that fake" to get her out of the book.

[Metamorphosis]

There was a What If? story where MJ ended up with Ben Reilly thinking he was Peter after an explosion or something (that killed the real Peter).

http://spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/what_if_v2/086.html

[Spiderfang]

It still holds true. People that complain about MJ not being with Spider-man would be complaining about MJ not being with the "real" Spider-man or how they just paired her up with "that fake" to get her out of the book.

True you can't please everyone all the time, but it would have been a simple solution no? Peter is single, Ben fans get to keep Ben -- who stays away with MJ at least until the tide recedes.

[Confuzzled]

No, pro Spider-marriage is basically pro-Mary Jane Watson being the deuteragonist of the Spider-Man series, or atleast ASM. Marrying her off to anyone other than the protagonist (Peter) and shipping her off to limbo or reducing her to a tertiary level is not the solution to the problem.