Superman #20 (spoilers)

[DragonPiece]

I really like the book to focus on Superman not on his son.

Action Comics may be more for you. Jon hasn't had much of a role in that book besides random cameos. It should also be better now that fake Clark is out of the picture.

[SuperCrab]

I really like the book to focus on Superman not on his son.

Agree with you 100%.

[Sacred Knight]

We really don't know how long that will hold true though. I mean, Jon is Jurgens' baby after all and probably the idea of him being the bestest and strongest evar too. It's only a matter of time before it starts showing up there too, most likely.

My only hope at this point is if its all rectified specifically in Black Dawn but I highly doubt that. Batman emphatically brought this up for a reason and that reason is probably a long term game that we have to suffer through. And its not just bad for Superman. Its bad for Jon too. They've crafted a popular character up to this point, but pushing this will mess up his popularity big-time. Damian's popularity would drop like a rock too if they decided to make him better than his father.

All this now after I had finally become cool with the status quo. So irritating.

[Superlad93]

That's the in-story reason. The real reason though is that Toriyama planned for Gohan to essentially take over but the fans were having none of it.

So then it's not actually comparable. Jon isn't going to become Superman and overshadow Clark regardless of how power he becomes. They were literally trying to write Goku out as the MC. Not what's going on here.

As for the salt over it, its the whole idea. I mean, they're basically telling us that Superboy, as he is now, should be leagues stronger than Superman, as he is now. That's just insurmountably stupid, even if they don't actually show it at some point.

I go back to Reed Richards and his kids then. Both of his kids (Franklin in particular) are far and away more capable than their dad, but Reed is still very much "dat dude!" He's still the guy that gods and other comic being try not to cross. He's still the guy who Norman Osborn used as a direct threat to the Sentry.....and it freakin' worked. He's (or he used to be unfortunately) Marvels Mr. Fix It. And all the while Franklin can still create whole universe in under his blanket. It's just not that serous. Reed and the FF fans view it more as another fantastically crazy aspect of Reed's life/family. "yeah my son's basically god, and my daughter's intellect should only be measured in factors of Einsteins. Just another day in my awesome life. Let's go recreate the multiverse now yay."

The idea that Superman's tomorrow (his kid) is brighter than him is a valid interpretation of the tomorrow idea. May not be how you want to interpret it, but it's totally valid and easily workable in sustained publication. I'm personally not at all married to the idea that the buck just stops at Superman for all eternity in terms of power and capability. Even Superman Prime (Clark in the future)--even though I think it's awesome and cathartic--isn't my preferred idea for the character. His decedents, ideals, and bloodline living on, being accepted, and reaching new and staggering heights is something that I think plays well with the Super and the Man idea. In one sense it's an immigrant who made a new land his true home in every sense of the word. In another sense it's the idea of his bloodline breeding greater and more powerful beings till the end of time.

I don't know, it just doesn't upset me because I've seen it done so well elsewhere, and I don't think here would be much different. So I just don't get the salt over it.

[Sacred Knight]

So then it's not actually comparable. Jon isn't going to become Superman and overshadow Clark regardless of how power he becomes. They were literally trying to write Goku out as the MC. Not what's going on here.

No but its going to be just as bad with Superboy being better than Superman. That's not what I read Superman comic books for, not for a supporting character that's "stronger than Superman on his best day".

And the situation with Reed and his kids is just as stupid. So that's hardly a consolation. I guess that's the main difference in our viewpoints. I don't think its been done well anywhere.

[Jokerz79]

I really loved the issue and have no issue with Jon being more powerful than his dad. Many comic offspring are more powerful than their parents. I think this is just to add a element of difficulty for Lois and Clark with raising a Super-Son. They problem assumed Clark could easily guide his son thru to adulthood but now much like his adopted parents Lois and Clark are in alien territory when it comes to Jon and dealing with his powers.

[Chris24601]

Interesting. Did DC put out a source saying this?

Quite the opposite. The final explanation for Kara being stronger than Superman was that Superman spent his entire life learning how to hold back on his strength and often does so unconsciously even when faced with other super durable opponents lest he inflict too much damage and accidentally kill someone. In other words, his default even against other heavy hitters is to punch at less than half his actual weight class (Superman is canonically 6'3"/235 lb. while Kara is 5'5"/120-135 lb.).

Kara, being newly arrived on Earth and inexperienced with her powers didn't hold back and so, at least at first, seemed to hit harder than Clark was capable of. At the climax of a particular Supergirl arc though Clark let loose after a 'world of cardboard' speech and proceeded to pull off feats of strength that not even Kara's full bore effort could do and that was the end of "Supergirl is actually stronger than Superman" for the Post-Crisis version of Kara Zor-El.

[Sacred Knight]

I hope they use that here actually. Say Batman is wrong and no, Jon is not stronger than Superman on his best day, because Batman nor anyone else actually has any clue what Superman's best day is because he holds back, even unconsciously. I would accept that, and freely admit my ire right now is exaggeration. But again I have my strong doubts just because of everything that's been said.

Further the hybrid thing makes no sense. It really never made sense with Dragon Ball too but I tried to overlook it. A superpowered race mixed with a, comparatively "normal" race shouldn't augment someone. It should actually halve their potential. I mean, as an example, a Kryptonian has a kid with a Daxamite or an Almerac, okay, I feel that. But not a normal human. And you halve Superman's power and you still get a pretty impressive kid. They're just forcing this and it will bite them.

[DragonPiece]

We really don't know how long that will hold true though. I mean, Jon is Jurgens' baby after all and probably the idea of him being the bestest and strongest evar too. It's only a matter of time before it starts showing up there too, most likely.

My only hope at this point is if its all rectified specifically in Black Dawn but I highly doubt that. Batman emphatically brought this up for a reason and that reason is probably a long term game that we have to suffer through. And its not just bad for Superman. Its bad for Jon too. They've crafted a popular character up to this point, but pushing this will mess up his popularity big-time. Damian's popularity would drop like a rock too if they decided to make him better than his father.

All this now after I had finally become cool with the status quo. So irritating.

I mean, he's bound to show up for some arcs, but I think for the most part, the main Superman book and Super Son's will deal with Jon's development while AC sticks to Superman himself.

[Sacred Knight]

I sure hope you're right.

[superduperman]

Yeah, I'm not really sure how Batman would know any of this about Jon or even Superman. This "Batman knows EVERYTHING!" stuff really has to stop. It's starting to look like the kid on the playground who won't allow himself to be killed because he has an invisible shield or something. I get that he's an ordinary human hanging out with gods but at some point the attempts to make him fit in look kind of silly. It sounds like Superman is about the whole family or Superman and Son while Action will be basically a traditional Superman book.

[Sacred Knight]

Batman's guest appearance was way too long anyway. It didn't sit right that Batman went to investigate Cobb and Clark just went to bed. Tomasi overused him. No reason for him to not have Superman check out Cobb, or at the very least go with. I get Superman is not overly concerned yet and not quite buying in, but there's a difference between being skeptical and just saying, well good night, you deal with it if you must.

[Superlad93]

Batman emphatically brought this up for a reason and that reason is probably a long term game that we have to suffer through.

Hopefully in a story line where we see future Jon at crazy full power teaming up with his younger self and dad!

Its bad for Jon too.

Not sure about that. Jon is popular in current day youth culture. Current day youth culture is and has been shaped greatly by anime. Anime has a knack for doing the whole "son surpasses the father idea." Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Dragon Ball, HunterXHunter, and My Hero Academia (just to name a popular few) ALL feature this idea as a major aspect of their plots. It's basically hardwired into western youth culture by now. And Jon's character seems to make a point of checking off all of the primal characteristics that make up on of these anime characters. I'd even say THAT'S part of the reason why he's so popular. So the idea of him further following the trend doesn't seem like it'll hurt his popularity among a lot of fans who made him popular in the first place.

Damian's popularity would drop like a rock too if they decided to make him better than his father.

Funny enough, Damian is actually technically better than his dad in almost ever aspect. Trained since birth by the best, and a mechanical whiz who even fix and improved on Bruce's work. The only things that really hold him back are his emotions and the ways he puts his talents to use not always being the best. But statistically speaking, Damian is an absolute beast.

[Sacred Knight]

I have yet to see any tangible material that flat-out states Damian is better than his father. He's had great training and that certainly has been built up, but no one's ever said he could best Batman right now as he is, to my knowledge. That's the difference, and that's the insult, that the narrative goes out of its way to say that Jon should, and as this is an ongoing narrative probably will be soon, stronger than Superman is right now. Utterly ridiculous. Now Jon will have to be nerfed, or Superman powered-up more, which will require some deus ex machina that otherwise wouldn't have if they were smarter about this and less fanboy/fanfic.

Again unless they counter this with the idea that Superman is stronger than anyone imagines because he's never let loose even though people THINK they've seen him let loose. Then I will relent and eat a huge crow sandwich. Gladly. But as of now, this is bad and Tomasi/Jurgens should feel bad.

[FishyZombie]

One day I hope Gleason draws a Batman/Superman ongoing team up. His style fits both characters really well and he's good at making Clark and Bruce look distinct from each other (even some of all time great artists draw them looking like identical twins more often than not).