Marvel Artist Ardian Syaf Hid Anti-Christian And Jewish Messages In This Week’s

[Iron Maiden]

I don't sympathize. First of all, using religion as a license to hate isn't a valid excuse. There are many Muslims in Indonesia who don't agree with this movement or who interpret the referenced verse differently. Many verses in religion can be twisted any way the participants in said religion want. Second of all, whatever he believes, he certainly doesn't get to proselytize on Marvel's dime without their approval.

QFT. I guess that's why I never really joined any religious groups. I don't think tomes written that long ago were written by people enlightened enough to foresee a future where a lot strange little rules don't matter anymore.

[Blue Reloaded]

The law is archaic, and is being used to control religious minorities such as what happened to the Gafatar and Ahmadiyah. To support such a law as Syaf does is to restrict freedoms of speach and religion. It's funny by G. Willow Wilson's giving rebuttal to Syaf's comment's in Indonesia she could be jailed for 5 years by this law. When the Sunni militants (the majority) forced the Shia (minority) to relocate the government did nothing because by one leaders words "I don't care [about] human rights as long I protect those who voted for me (the Sunni majority) as their leader." The fact that the government uses fatwa is one religion ruling over others. This law is used more to empower a religious majority and control the minorities and that is bigotry. For Syaf to support this law is taking part in religious bigotry.

Yep, to take it a step further, because information dissemination is so limited in these countries, most take their Imam's word as law. Therefore, whatever is said during the call to prayer is taken as fact without any disagreement or ability to challenge the beliefs of their Imam. That is how extremist sects grow so rapidly in that part of the world.

[passerby]

The law is archaic, and is being used to control religious minorities such as what happened to the Gafatar and Ahmadiyah. To support such a law as Syaf does is to restrict freedoms of speach and religion. It's funny by G. Willow Wilson's giving rebuttal to Syaf's comment's in Indonesia she could be jailed for 5 years by this law. When the Sunni militants (the majority) forced the Shia (minority) to relocate the government did nothing because by one leaders words "I don't care [about] human rights as long I protect those who voted for me (the Sunni majority) as their leader." The fact that the government uses fatwa is one religion ruling over others. This law is used more to empower a religious majority and control the minorities and that is bigotry. For Syaf to support this law is taking part in religious bigotry.

You could interpret events that way, as bigotry. But I find it too simplistic and ignores the political dimension. The Sunni leader draws power from his Sunni base, so it's a pure Machiavellian manoeuvre to favour his own base over the Shia, who hate him as much as he hates them.

[Beaubier]

You said, "Using religion as a license to hate isn't a valid excuse." Of course. But do we see evidence of this hatred from what he has drawn, written, or said?

And, "Whatever he believes, he certainly doesn't get to proselytize on Marvel's dime without their approval." I think everyone here agrees that this is unprofessional. And this lack of professionalism is really all we can say about him at this point.

Saying that non-Muslims should have their rights restricted in that they should be denied positions of leadership is, to me, a hateful position. This isn't even taking into account that he's referencing a movement that has had violence and threats involved. If you read what other Indonesians have written about this and why they disapprove of it, it's no surprise why Syaf's inserts made them so uncomfortable.

[passerby]

Saying that non-Muslims should have their rights restricted in that they should be denied positions of leadership is, to me, a hateful position. This isn't even taking into account that he's referencing a movement that has had violence and threats involved. If you read what other Indonesians have written about this and why they disapprove of it, it's no surprise why Syaf's inserts made them so uncomfortable.

You find it hateful, but that's not enough to show that Syaf's position comes from hatred. There's a difference. From all we can see, he believes that he has no way out. He wants to be a good Muslim, so he has to follow what the verse says. It's not necessarily true that he follows the verse because he hates Christians and Jews. From all appearances, he follows the verse because he wants to be a good Muslim.

[Blue Reloaded]

You find it hateful, but that's not enough to show that Syaf's position comes from hatred. There's a difference. From all we can see, he believes that he has no way out. He wants to be a good Muslim, so he has to follow what the verse says. It's not necessarily true that he follows the verse because he hates Christians and Jews. From all appearances, he follows the verse because he wants to be a good Muslim.

It's one thing to follow what it says, regardless of personal belief; however, it is another thing to subversively evangelize those beliefs in your work. Not to mention, he stated in the conversation pictures above that he's proud to evangelize that hateful rhetoric in his work.

So yes, that is a position of hate.

Also, that defense worked out so well for the Nazis.

[Digifiend]

Marvel:

http://www.cbr.com/marvel-terminates...g-controversy/

[passerby]

It's one thing to follow what it says, regardless of personal belief; however, it is another thing to subversively evangelize those beliefs in your work. Not to mention, he stated in the conversation pictures above that he's proud to evangelize that hateful rhetoric in his work.

So yes, that is a position of hate.

Also, that defense worked out so well for the Nazis.

Right, let's trot out the Nazis ...

I see so much use of the word "hate, hate, hate" here. Even when there's really no evidence of it. Unprofessional behaviour? Sure. Political passions? Sure. Hatred, though? I'm not convinced, for reasons I've already explained in my previous posts. We know he is emotionally affected by the blasphemy case. We just do not know that the emotion is hatred, or a sense of injustice, or outrage, or some other feeling.

And that's not evangelism. He's expressing himself, to whoever understands. The vast majority of Westerners were blissfully unaware until Bleeding Cool's report. Even the Indonesians themselves, well, not many are avid comic book readers. And even those who are, they just see them as easter eggs, not a call to action.

So, we don't know that his actions originate from hatred, and those easter eggs are understood only by Indonesians, and they aren't going to be swayed by his political views because they see those easter eggs in an X-Men comic.

[Blue Reloaded]

Right, let's trot out the Nazis ...

I see so much use of the word "hate, hate, hate" here. Even when there's really no evidence of it. Unprofessional behaviour? Sure. Political passions? Sure. Hatred, though? I'm not convinced, for reasons I've already explained in my previous posts. We know he is emotionally affected by the blasphemy case. We just do not know that the emotion is hatred, or a sense of injustice, or outrage, or some other feeling.

And that's not evangelism. He's expressing himself, to whoever understands. The vast majority of Westerners were blissfully unaware until Bleeding Cool's report. Even the Indonesians themselves, well, not many are avid comic book readers. And even those who are, they just see them as easter eggs, not a call to action.

So, we don't know that his actions originate from hatred, and those easter eggs are understood only by Indonesians, and they aren't going to be swayed by his political views because they see those easter eggs in an X-Men comic.

That was literally the Nazi defense that you were using to abdicate the actions occurring:

"[He] was just following orders."

Especially when the whole point of the 212 rally was to call for the Governors resignation so they could behead him because he was a different faith and spoke about the Quran.

[ijacksparrow]

You find it hateful, but that's not enough to show that Syaf's position comes from hatred. There's a difference. From all we can see, he believes that he has no way out. He wants to be a good Muslim, so he has to follow what the verse says. It's not necessarily true that he follows the verse because he hates Christians and Jews. From all appearances, he follows the verse because he wants to be a good Muslim.

I'll make quite simple for you and anyone trying to reasoning the unreasonable:

Prejudice rooted in faith is not zealotry, it's still prejudice.

Hate speech rooted in faith is not zealotry, it's still hate speech.

I don't care what his holy book says or what any other book says on that matter. If he can't reason it, if he's a victim of his religion, that's his problem, not mine. It becomes my problem when he tries to spread prejudice and hate speech on X-Men books tho. Good riddance.

[Beaubier]

You find it hateful, but that's not enough to show that Syaf's position comes from hatred. There's a difference. From all we can see, he believes that he has no way out. He wants to be a good Muslim, so he has to follow what the verse says. It's not necessarily true that he follows the verse because he hates Christians and Jews. From all appearances, he follows the verse because he wants to be a good Muslim.

Ah yes, being a good Muslim by calling for the restriction of rights of Non-Muslims. Dress it up how you want, that's still hate speech.

I've seen people hide behind their religions to justify their hatred of others they don't agree with all my life. Wars have been waged over it. That doesn't make it morally defensible.

[passerby]

That was literally the Nazi defense that you were using to abdicate the actions occurring:

"[He] was just following orders."

Especially when the whole point of the 212 rally was to call for the Governors resignation so they could behead him because he was a different faith and spoke about the Quran.

When one party invokes the Nazis, not sarcastically, but actually serious about it, the discussion has run its course.

It's all the same to me if you wish to move beyond simplistic views and learn something about the world or not.

[Blue Reloaded]

When one party invokes the Nazis, not sarcastically, but actually serious about it, the discussion has run its course.

It's all the same to me if you wish to move beyond simplistic views and learn something about the world or not.

Usually I can't stand when that card is played in discussions--but, alas, here it is an adept comparison.

You don't know me. You don't know my views or experience, but nice pot shot as you exit the conversation.

By the way, just a reminder, I'm not the one defending bigoted hate speech based on someone having a different religion. But keep calling my views simplistic.

[passerby]

Ah yes, being a good Muslim by calling for the restriction of rights of Non-Muslims. Dress it up how you want, that's still hate speech.

I've seen people hide behind their religions to justify their hatred of others they don't agree with all my life. Wars have been waged over it. That doesn't make it morally defensible.

Again with hate, hate, hate. Is there no range of emotions that you're aware of other than hate?

There's no denying that there are people out there who act out of hatred. But this is a thread about Syaf, and we're talking about him. We have seen unprofessionalism from him. We have seen political fervour. We have seen religious fervour, misplaced or not. But hatred? I have not seen any from him. I have seen a lot of it from this thread though.

[nnelg]

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that a bunch of people got this guy terminated because of his religious beliefs. Because that's what happened. They should be ashamed of themselves. People are always wanting others to accept their beliefs but won't accept other people's.