Was Alan Moore's Swamp Thing really unique in mid 80s?

[smallo]

I ask that question because I'm reading Alan Moore's Swamp Thing and Crisis On Infinite Earths. The sophistication gap between the two somewhat surprised me because Swamp Thing at the time has no mature readers label and vertigo was almost a decade away. For example I just read Swamp Thing #50 which is a code approved book but the story explored nature of evil and deconstructed and subverted good vs evil tropes. Crisis is juvenile by comparison. My guess is most ongoing DC titles were more like Crisis. Indeed the Swamp Thing Crisis crossover feels awkward...was Swamp Thing the only ongoing experimental DC series or were there others?

[CentralPower]

Most comics in the 80s (Marvel or DC) were more like "Crisis on Infinite Earths" than "Swamp Thing". DC did not start flirting with a "mature readers" lable until '87, with "the Question" and a prestige format Green Arrow series.

Moore's ideas were not necessarily new. (You could find conceptually similar content in the 70s, even 60s.) But, his execution was technically superior than the then-standard for the industry. At the time, people saw it as a mark of distinction for guys like Moore or Morrison. (There were other writers, working on mainstream titles at both of the big 2, who were better than the average for the time. But, Moore is definitely one of the stand-outs.)

In real terms, it is probably better to see it as an indictment of other writers that the industry took so long to catch up after "Watchmen" or "Swamp Thing".

[smallo]

Most comics in the 80s (Marvel or DC) were more like "Crisis on Infinite Earths" than "Swamp Thing". DC did not start flirting with a "mature readers" lable until '87, with "the Question" and a prestige format Green Arrow series.

Moore's ideas were not necessarily new. (You could find conceptually similar content in the 70s, even 60s.) But, his execution was technically superior than the then-standard for the industry. At the time, people saw it as a mark of distinction for guys like Moore or Morrison. (There were other writers, working on mainstream titles at both of the big 2, who were better than the average for the time. But, Moore is definitely one of the stand-outs.)

In real terms, it is probably better to see it as an indictment of other writers that the industry took so long to catch up after "Watchmen" or "Swamp Thing".

Technically superior...yes...I skimmed other Crisis crossovers...Moore's writing definitely stands out.

[Lee Stone]

It actually bothered Moore that they did end up putting a Mature Readers label on it.
Probably because to the general comic buying public, 'Mature Readers' meant gore, gratuitous sex, nudity and foul language.
And having 'Mature Readers' on the cover would likely reduce the readership, or potential readership, by being restricted to adults.
I much preferred the 'Sophisticated Suspense' label they had on it up until then, as it seemed more appropriate.

DC in the mid to late '80s also had a broader mix of tones or styles...

1. Ambush Bug, 'Mazing Man and Captain Carrot...
2. Justice League, early Doom Patrol, Firestorm, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Blue Devil, Flash, Green Lantern Corps, Superman...
3. New Teen Titans, Legion of Super-Heroes, Outsiders, Infinity, Inc., Wonder Woman, Batman, Suicide Squad, Captain Atom, Manhunter, Warlord...
4. Green Arrow, Swamp Thing, Question, Animal-Man, later Doom Patrol...
5. Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Underworld, Hellblazer, Vigilante, Dark Knight Returns...

Comics these days mostly fall at levels 3 and 4, with the Vertigo titles falling at levels 4 and 5.
Level 1s have fallen out of fashion (at least in comics), and level 2s sometimes pop up but they're viewed as too nostalgic and don't last long (unfortunately).

[stain]

It was unique to me. The most bizarre mainstream comic I had read up to that point were old Dr Strange (and really that was more psychedelic). I was very much a Spider-Man, FF, and Batman reader. At first I didn't really understand the genius of Swamp Thing, honestly I was too young. Years later I read it and absolutely loved it. A few years ago I bought the entire Moore run at Comixology and enjoyed it even more.

Moore's run on Swamp Thing is in my top 3 favorite comics of all time. I think it's because I've read it at very different times in my life and enjoyed it on different levels each time.

[Lee Stone]

It was unique to me. The most bizarre mainstream comic I had read up to that point were old Dr Strange (and really that was more psychedelic). I was very much a Spider-Man, FF, and Batman reader. At first I didn't really understand the genius of Swamp Thing, honestly I was too young. Years later I read it and absolutely loved it. A few years ago I bought the entire Moore run at Comixology and enjoyed it even more.

Moore's run on Swamp Thing is in my top 3 favorite comics of all time. I think it's because I've read it at very different times in my life and enjoyed it on different levels each time.

I think it would've had a more profound effect on me if I had read it when it came out.
However, I still rank it as one of the very best runs in comics.

My entrance to the Moore Swamp Things came after the launch of Vertigo and coincided with me discovering Madman.
So I already had Peter Milligan's Shade, Rachel Pollack's Doom Patrol, Neil Gaiman's Death and Mike Allred's Madman warping my brain (pleasantly, I may add).

And then I was lucky enough that one of the first issues of Swamp Thing I read was #56, the 'My Blue Heaven' issue, which was one of Moore's more existential issues (up there with the issue where Swamp Thing and Abby, ahem, 'get intimate' and the one where he buries Alec's bones).

[ed2962]

I'm assuming you mean as far as DCU comics? I think Moore brought a level of not just craft but also "literacy" to the title. On one hand he treated the subject matter seriously, but he was willing to play with the genre a bit as well, and he assumed that the audience was smart enough to get it. After their success with Moore, DC sought out other UK writers who were sort of intellectual, yet had an affection for pop culture. Also I'd say the success of Frank Miller and a few other "edgy" creators encouraged DC to take more risks. After Crisis, they had a lot of new eyes on them, saw this was the time show folks they weren't just "The Superfriends". Swamp Thing, Green Arrow, Animal Man, Doom Patrol...these comics all started out in universe, but slowly became the core of DC's "New Direction" line which eventually morfed into Vertigo.

I'd see there were other comics pre-crisis that were a little more sophisticated. There was stuff like Night Force. I didn't read either Thriller or Camelot 3000, but I believe they were attempts to push things further.

[stain]

I think it would've had a more profound effect on me if I had read it when it came out.
However, I still rank it as one of the very best runs in comics.

My entrance to the Moore Swamp Things came after the launch of Vertigo and coincided with me discovering Madman.
So I already had Peter Milligan's Shade, Rachel Pollack's Doom Patrol, Neil Gaiman's Death and Mike Allred's Madman warping my brain (pleasantly, I may add).

And then I was lucky enough that one of the first issues of Swamp Thing I read was #56, the 'My Blue Heaven' issue, which was one of Moore's more existential issues (up there with the issue where Swamp Thing and Abby, ahem, 'get intimate' and the one where he buries Alec's bones).

I'm sure the older guys were blown away, when I first read it I was kind of bored though thought the art was cool (back then my taste were very mainstream). Around 91, working at a LCS I got the chance to read the run from Moore's first issue, I was blown away. At that time the best 2 comics I had read were The Watchman and Batman Year One. More recently I bought the collection and read it start to finish and today I truly see how brilliant those comics are. The Watchmen is more popular and will always have a huge audience, but The Swamp Thing is something special.

Maybe the Swamp Thing is to comics what the Velevet Underground was to music. LOL

I'm not much of a collector now and days but I do keep my eye out for Moore's Swamp Thing floppies, they are impossible to find in any condition. Mainly you find them in boxes belonging to those who don't really know what they have.

[Jim Kelly]

Despite what may seem a freaky personal life to some, Moore's clean style and tight plotting is really in keeping with the classic DC writers. You would not know anything about the man personally from reading his comics. He has totally absorbed the craft of comics writing. Whereas, someone like Grant Morrison, you can see his personal self bleeding through into the stories (not a knock against either writer, just a difference that I see in their styles). Of course, given all the press on Moore, it's hard for people now to read his work and not look for traces of him in the stories. But even someone like John Constantine only resembles Moore in being British and being interested in the supernatural.

Alan Moore is the kind of comics writer that would have made a good living back in the 1950s, because he seems to have that work ethic. He's an interesting figure in comics history, because he's someone who really understands the sophistication of the classic comics writers and yet he's supposed to be the exemplar of the new writing style in the '80s.

[DCJdog]

There was actually a lot of sophistication in other lines prior to Moore and during his run on the Swamp Thing. Moore just had a very long run. Don't get me wrong. Swamp Thing is unique and there really is no parallel. But the writers of that time and prior were raised up with a classical education and it showed in their writing (ex. references/drawing from great literary classics).

Like other said, Moore's biggest strength was his work ethic. He liked to explore certain themes and he would deal with themes in a very thought out, researched manner. I think what makes his style stick out was his native English culture. The English are typically very frank and address things from all sides of the issue (or, at least, that was Brit culture in his day). This was very different from the stark black/white one issue type writing that typified many American authors. It really makes his writing stand out.

[KingsLeadHat]

Even in the mid-80's, the primary audience for superhero comics were kids (this is easily forgotten it seems), so the bulk of the titles being intentionally simplistic (relatively speaking) was seen as the best way to avoid alienating readers yet still appeal to the all-ages market which was growing.

Moore's Swamp Thing was a quantum leap for comics writing, no doubt, but if you've ever sampled novels by the likes of Steve Englehart and a few other comic writers who branched out, you'll see that many of the older comics writers were far more sophisticated than the editors of superhero comics would allow. Besides, many of the writers of the pre-Moore era intentionally used those old Stan Lee conventions, seeing the more corny aspects as part of the charm and conceit of the superhero genre. Moore is my favorite comic writer, but I wouldn't want EVERYTHING written to that level because not every character requires it to be honest. Some titles need to be lighthearted, fun and adventure-oriented.

[Doctor Bifrost]

Depends on your definitions. I found it unique. In particularly found it thoughtful, which is something I look for in superhero comics and often do not find. I thought "The Anatomy Lesson" was brilliant. It changed the entire status quo of an existing character, in a way that opened up the entire narrative (the entire fictional universe, as it happens), but without resorting to retcons or characters acting without clear motivations (as is typical); it felt - no pun intended- organic. (I regret that DC has basically put the genie back in the bottle for that one.) His characters had a full range of mature emotions - his handling of the Demon and Jason Blood was particularly was subtle and smart, and I remember scenes from that story like I read them yesterday.

To me, the only thing that compared was Gaiman's Sandman. I don't know what it is with those Brits.

[Lee Stone]

One of the most powerful moments for me was the death of Zatara, sacrificing himself to save Zatanna.
Considering how Zatanna was introduced into the DC mythos by searching for her father, it was a landmark moment in her narrative.

Oh, and the Pogo issue was very moving. I rank it up there with Eisner's 'Story of Gerhard Shnobble'.

[CentralPower]

Technically superior...yes...I skimmed other Crisis crossovers...Moore's writing definitely stands out.

To clarify, I did not mean "technical" in a snarky way. I meant it as a reference to the fact that Moore actually (and no nice way to say this) knew how to write at an adult level, which much of the industry did not bother with at the time. Moore, in a technical sense, was a better writer.

I'd see there were other comics pre-crisis that were a little more sophisticated. There was stuff like Night Force. I didn't read either Thriller or Camelot 3000, but I believe they were attempts to push things further.

It depends on what you are defining as "sophisticated". Ideas-wise, Moore was not as advanced as some people credit him as being. You could find similar ideas a decade or more earlier.

However, Moore's execution was better than industry standard. Some say that Moore set the standard. However, this would imply that the industry as a whole was trying to meet that standard, which was not really the case for at least another decade.

Probably because to the general comic buying public, 'Mature Readers' meant gore, gratuitous sex, nudity and foul language.
And having 'Mature Readers' on the cover would likely reduce the readership, or potential readership, by being restricted to adults.
I much preferred the 'Sophisticated Suspense' label they had on it up until then, as it seemed more appropriate.

I am not a fan of said labels because they imply that comics are supposed to be pitched low by default. (Ratings are fine. But, singling out comics for not being pitched low arguably diminishes the rest of the industry.)

Comics these days mostly fall at levels 3 and 4, with the Vertigo titles falling at levels 4 and 5.
Level 1s have fallen out of fashion (at least in comics), and level 2s sometimes pop up but they're viewed as too nostalgic and don't last long (unfortunately).

Modern comics have a rating system that is similar to movie ratings. The level 3 and 4 stuff is more or less PG. G rated stuff (level 1) is falling out of fashion. Then, there is some R, or even NC17.

Of course, given all the press on Moore, it's hard for people now to read his work and not look for traces of him in the stories. But even someone like John Constantine only resembles Moore in being British and being interested in the supernatural.

I have a hard time separating writers from their work, a big part of why I am not a Moore fan at this point. But, you are right, drawing spurious or superficial ties (such as Constantine being British) is not helpful.