Should they stay or should they go? Rucka's Reinventions

[Awonder]

No, he invented her, because Flashpoint wiped out every trace of her existence beforehand and replaced her with the blond version. Superman and Wally West came through time and space to be here now, Rucka's idea is that this Hippolyta has been here all along despite no mention of her before his run exists.

Speaking of Rebirth... it's not a very good argument compared to Flashpoint. Since Flashpoint was a multiversal event that changed everything, Rebirth however was Wally West coming through the Speedforce and tweaking a handful of characters... and Wonder Woman wasn't one of them.

Flashpoint didn't wipe out my copies of Marston and Perez.

I don't follow what you mean, what is "not a good argument"? I haven't followed much beyond WW in Rebirth; but, to me, they chose the name "Rebirth" for a reason. It's about going back to "classic" versions of these characters. So, while some of the details may be different, I don't see how Rucka invented this Hippolyta. At most, he reintroduced her.

[Amazon Swordsman]

Why is flashpoint so important anyway in terms of what's considered for continuity?

[Outside_85]

Why is flashpoint so important anyway in terms of what's considered for continuity?

Because, if you recall, one of Flashpoint's big selling points was that 'this is not an AU' 'this is the DCU' and in terms of the story, thats true, because Thawne went so far back in time to basically rewrite history, making so all the stories we've read never happened. Thats part one.
Then came part two where Barry tried to fix things and Pandora... or Manhattan, sabotaged his efforts and we got the New 52.
So the effects of Flashpoint is that nothing really remained of the world before it. Thats why the needed Brainiac/Tellos as having cherry picked in the timelines in order have Convergence and why daddy Superman's appearance isn't a major event in it's own right.

Flashpoint didn't wipe out my copies of Marston and Perez.

I don't follow what you mean, what is "not a good argument"? I haven't followed much beyond WW in Rebirth; but, to me, they chose the name "Rebirth" for a reason. It's about going back to "classic" versions of these characters.

So, while some of the details may be different, I don't see how Rucka invented this Hippolyta. At most, he reintroduced her.

Well, COIE moved on of them to another universe, and Flashpoint rewrote the one that can in to replace it before botching the fix. I am not thinking about people's comicbooks or memories, I am thinking about the technical aspects of these stories. Brunette Hippolyta did not exist in the main post-Flashpoint uiverse before Rucka invented her.

Because only a very small amount of characters have been directly touched and literally changed as part of the actual Rebirth event: As in Wally coming back. And most of those were the Titans.
Most others have simply moved on in another direction. Teen Titans reformed with a new leader, the Birds of Prey are formed, Green Arrow is running into his old crew piece by piece, Old Superman drifted into the shoes of his New 52 counterpart before merging with him and so on.

So in which book between September 2011 and now can I find this Hippolyta or the mention of her?

[Gaelforce]

Because, if you recall, one of Flashpoint's big selling points was that 'this is not an AU' 'this is the DCU' and in terms of the story, thats true, because Thawne went so far back in time to basically rewrite history, making so all the stories we've read never happened. Thats part one.
Then came part two where Barry tried to fix things and Pandora... or Manhattan, sabotaged his efforts and we got the New 52.
So the effects of Flashpoint is that nothing really remained of the world before it. Thats why the needed Brainiac/Tellos as having cherry picked in the timelines in order have Convergence and why daddy Superman's appearance isn't a major event in it's own right.



Well, COIE moved on of them to another universe, and Flashpoint rewrote the one that can in to replace it before botching the fix. I am not thinking about people's comicbooks or memories, I am thinking about the technical aspects of these stories. Brunette Hippolyta did not exist in the main post-Flashpoint uiverse before Rucka invented her.

Because only a very small amount of characters have been directly touched and literally changed as part of the actual Rebirth event: As in Wally coming back. And most of those were the Titans.
Most others have simply moved on in another direction. Teen Titans reformed with a new leader, the Birds of Prey are formed, Green Arrow is running into his old crew piece by piece, Old Superman drifted into the shoes of his New 52 counterpart before merging with him and so on.

So in which book between September 2011 and now can I find this Hippolyta or the mention of her?

Hmmm...

With all due respect, I believe you may be missing Awonder's point.

Rucka did not invent a brunette Hippolyta. Marston did in All Star #8.

Rucka did not invent Philippus, Perez did.

Rucka did not invent the version of the Amazons he seems to be using or the version of Themyscira either.

He isn't inventing or re-inventing these characters and places and such. He's bringing back the inventions of previous writers, just as the writer of Superman is bringing back his marriage to Lois. He certainly didn't invent that relationship, but he's bringing it back from the past.

[Outside_85]

With all due respect, I believe you may be missing Awonder's point.

Rucka did not invent a brunette Hippolyta. Marston did in All Star #8.

Rucka did not invent Philippus, Perez did.

Rucka did not invent the version of the Amazons he seems to be using or the version of Themyscira either.

He isn't inventing or re-inventing these characters and places and such. He's bringing back the inventions of previous writers, just as the writer of Superman is bringing back his marriage to Lois. He certainly didn't invent that relationship, but he's bringing it back from the past.

And you are missing mine. You are talking about the books as they exist in real life, as part of your memories and your comicbook collections. I am talking about the in-universe continuity.
Yes, Brunette Hippolyta exists in those books and memories. Where she did not exists was in the DCU after September 2011, until now.

Regarding Themyscira... I would say he has invented this version, since I don't recall it ever being the case that if an Amazon left and tried to go back, then she'd be faced with a slightly different illusion.

The problem is that what they are doing to Superman has more ground to stand on, with the notion that the classic Superman and Lois were people Tellus plucked from the timestream before they were erased. The Perez/Rucka Amazons have just appeared out of nowhere.

[Awonder]

And you are missing mine. You are talking about the books as they exist in real life, as part of your memories and your comicbook collections. I am talking about the in-universe continuity.
Yes, Brunette Hippolyta exists in those books and memories. Where she did not exists was in the DCU after September 2011, until now.

Regarding Themyscira... I would say he has invented this version, since I don't recall it ever being the case that if an Amazon left and tried to go back, then she'd be faced with a slightly different illusion.

The problem is that what they are doing to Superman has more ground to stand on, with the notion that the classic Superman and Lois were people Tellus plucked from the timestream before they were erased. The Perez/Rucka Amazons have just appeared out of nowhere.

But, "in-universe" continuity changes with the tides. There was no multiverse ... until there was a multiverse, again. They may not have explained all the technical details of how it happened for each and every character; but, the concept and spirit of the whole endeavor is not an "invention," but a Rebirth. 2011 is not the starting point for these characters anymore.

[Amazon Swordsman]

@outside, so what you're basically saying is that for every DC character, everything in history that happened before flashpoint was erased, null and void, or was pushed to another universe. Are all the comics following suit to this precedent? Or are folks picking and choosing what goes and what stays?

[Outside_85]

@outside, so what you're basically saying is that for every DC character, everything in history that happened before flashpoint was erased, null and void, or was pushed to another universe. Are all the comics following suit to this precedent? Or are folks picking and choosing what goes and what stays?

With the exception of Green Lantern, it being a big seller and under Johns' control and certain events involving Batman. Yes, everyone was rolled back to year zero and quite a lot of time and forum posts were dedicated to people guessing and hoping stories they knew and loved would somehow still be in-cannon... most of them were not.

But, "in-universe" continuity changes with the tides. There was no multiverse ... until there was a multiverse, again. They may not have explained all the technical details of how it happened for each and every character; but, the concept and spirit of the whole endeavor is not an "invention," but a Rebirth. 2011 is not the starting point for these characters anymore.

DC grew a multiverse over 50 years of publishing, then Marv Wolfman boiled it down to 1 universe and 20 years later Alexander Luthor, one of the few who remembered there was a Multiverse, went along an created a new Multiverse, though a very small one.
Until something happens in-universe that massively alters time, space and the course of established history, 2011 will remain as year one for 99.9% of DC's characters.
As for the spirit of things, like I said, most writers have managed the 'Rebirth' by a slight course correction without throwing out most of what came before.

[AmiMizuno]

Yea because you want to see Amazons who kill their sons and are the most unlikable. In fact, it Azz's amazons came out of nowhere too. The sex pirates, the baby killers, weak female characters. Do we really need that to come back? The first-born was really not even a villains and anti-climax. I mean also why would the Amazons allow Steve to live or Diana to go since there wouldn't be a purpose to being their Amazonian traditions of peace and love. I mean the Amazons should be flawed but likable too. Not sure what you has the reason for Post-Crisis was to DC everything was getting too confusing. I mean Perez's Amazons got a backstory. So how did they come out of nowhere? Also, a simple fact most Wonder Woman sales that do well both in reviews and sales go back to her roots not change her or her myths to something else.Azz completely changed the Amazons and too much of Diana's roots.

[Nyssane]

And you are missing mine. You are talking about the books as they exist in real life, as part of your memories and your comicbook collections. I am talking about the in-universe continuity.
Yes, Brunette Hippolyta exists in those books and memories. Where she did not exists was in the DCU after September 2011, until now.

Regarding Themyscira... I would say he has invented this version, since I don't recall it ever being the case that if an Amazon left and tried to go back, then she'd be faced with a slightly different illusion.

The problem is that what they are doing to Superman has more ground to stand on, with the notion that the classic Superman and Lois were people Tellus plucked from the timestream before they were erased. The Perez/Rucka Amazons have just appeared out of nowhere.

Well, we were talking about Rucka/Azzarello/JMS, so that in itself takes the characters out of the in-continuity and makes it about the comic book history itself.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Doctor Cyber - Keep. It irks me a little bit that Rucka felt the need to change her name from Cylvia to Adrianna, but whatever. She's fun, kooky, sarcastic... completely unique from WW villains that came before her. I do hope she branches off on her own as a villain.

This is actually something I'm curious about. Does the fact that Rucka changed her name mean that she's not supposed to be a reinvention of Cylvia Cyber, but is instead just an entirely different character?? In other words, what if this Dr. Cyber is simply a legacy character and the original Cylvia Cyber is out there somewhere in retirement and Adrianna decided not to let the name go to waste. I mean, her name is Adrianna Anderson, not Adrianna Cyber.

Ares - No idea, since we haven't really seen him yet. If he's that naked guy in the tree from a few issues prior, then I'm okay with it.

We see him in the "flashback" issues. He's back to his old look:

[Awonder]

With the exception of Green Lantern, it being a big seller and under Johns' control and certain events involving Batman. Yes, everyone was rolled back to year zero and quite a lot of time and forum posts were dedicated to people guessing and hoping stories they knew and loved would somehow still be in-cannon... most of them were not.



DC grew a multiverse over 50 years of publishing, then Marv Wolfman boiled it down to 1 universe and 20 years later Alexander Luthor, one of the few who remembered there was a Multiverse, went along an created a new Multiverse, though a very small one.
Until something happens in-universe that massively alters time, space and the course of established history, 2011 will remain as year one for 99.9% of DC's characters.
As for the spirit of things, like I said, most writers have managed the 'Rebirth' by a slight course correction without throwing out most of what came before.

The transition from pre-Crisis to post-Crisis had "exceptions" to the general rule of an all new DC. Likewise, pre-Flashpoint to post-Flashpoint had exceptions, too. I seriously doubt Rucka gave more than 2 seconds of thought to what other writers were doing with other characters. Moreover, I'd argue that most other characters weren't in the same 'need' of as drastic of a Rebirth as WW.

You may not like that Rucka threw out some things you liked; you can say it doesn't fit as well as other explanations. But, it just strikes me as odd saying Rucka "invented" a version of Hippolyta when his version is strikingly similar to versions that came before. Just as GL didn't change as much as WW after Flashpoint, on the flip side, WW changed more by going back closer to what she lost due to Flashpoint.

[Nyssane]

This is actually something I'm curious about. Does the fact that Rucka changed her name mean that she's not supposed to be a reinvention of Cylvia Cyber, but is instead just an entirely different character?? In other words, what if this Dr. Cyber is simply a legacy character and the original Cylvia Cyber is out there somewhere in retirement and Adrianna decided not to let the name go to waste. I mean, her name is Adrianna Anderson, not Adrianna Cyber.

We see him in the "flashback" issues. He's back to his old look:

It's been heavily speculated that it was Deimos and Phobos taking the form of Ares in order to discover the location of Themyscira by looking into Diana's mind.

As for Cyber, I like to think Cylvia's been wiped out completely and Adrianna IS Cylvia, just renamed. Sort of like how Barbara Ann replaced Priscilla (I hate the idea of multiple Cheetahs).

[Desean101101]

This is actually something I'm curious about. Does the fact that Rucka changed her name mean that she's not supposed to be a reinvention of Cylvia Cyber, but is instead just an entirely different character?? In other words, what if this Dr. Cyber is simply a legacy character and the original Cylvia Cyber is out there somewhere in retirement and Adrianna decided not to let the name go to waste. I mean, her name is Adrianna Anderson, not Adrianna Cyber.



We see him in the "flashback" issues. He's back to his old look:

I still hate what happened to Ares. There are such better Gods to make Diana's Nemesis but really Ares? He wasn't the best God but he was far from a villian

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It's been heavily speculated that it was Deimos and Phobos taking the form of Ares in order to discover the location of Themyscira by looking into Diana's mind.

Really, I just thought it was Ares. Has that theory been confirmed anywhere?

As for Cyber, I like to think Cylvia's been wiped out completely and Adrianna IS Cylvia, just renamed. Sort of like how Barbara Ann replaced Priscilla (I hate the idea of multiple Cheetahs).

Barbara Ann Minerva wasn't the "Post-Crisis version" of Priscilla Rich. Priscilla and Barbara existed as independent characters post-Crisis, with Priscilla being the first Cheetah and Barbara simply having taken up the identity. In fact, the latter actually murdered the former in The Flash #219 from 2005. Plus, we haven't seen the status of Priscilla currently. I'd like to think she still existed and is still out there somewhere. Hopefully even having been the original Cheetah still.

As for the idea of multiple villains, I love it when multiple characters have taken up the same villainous identity. It just adds a lot more to the mythology, IMO.