Is Spider-Man An Incompetent Hero?

[Vegeta]

A few thoughts on your blog posts:

"This is because his tactics essentially guarantee that he will be a target, his loved ones will suffer, and his enemies will become stronger as a result."

In the blog post you declare Daredevil and Batman as heroes who are "doing it right." Yet, Daredevil has suffered far more tragedy than Spider-Man through the course of his superhero existence. Not only do many of the villains know his secret identity, but many of his rogues also know that Daredevil is not a killer; thus they know they can get away with many things, safe with the knowledge that retaliation only comes in the usual broken ribs and jail sentence.


Pictured above, a man who clearly gives zero f---s

This also happens to Batman on multiple occasions (Barbara Gordon, Jason Todd, Steph Brown, Commissioner Gordon's wife) Even with a secret identity, anyone tangentially associated with Batman still becomes a victim.

"Spider-Man, unlike Batman or Daredevil, doesn’t present a very intimidating presence. He’s many things, but intimidating isn’t one of them. His costume isn’t that intimidating. He doesn’t operate in the shadows or anything."

Spider-Man is plenty intimidating (Titania was paralyzed with fear, Doc Ock developed arachnophobia for a time, Beetle was terrified of him in an issue) When Spidey cut loose during the "Origin of the Species" story line super villains were skipping town or turning themselves into the police for protection!

[Vegeta]

And despite his "intimidating presence," Batman is still shown busting up drug dealers and the usual gangbangers. It isn't just the "cream of the crazy crop" like the Joker or Mad Hatter that continue to operate in Gotham.

" He’s actually a well-known public figure, thanks largely to his own efforts and those of his boss, the ultimate blowhard that is J. Jonah Jameson."

Those photos certainly don't build his public persona, if anything, they generate MORE fear as Jameson uses them paints a picture of a dangerous (possibly criminal) menace roaming the streets! Besides, Batman has a huge nightlight the commissioner broadcasts into the sky, Flash has a museum dedicated to him, Superman often appears to receive the key to the city, etc. etc. Self promotion is not something Spidey is solely guilty of.

"To make matters even worse, he gives his enemies a common threat to rally against. Anyone who knows anything about social psychology, or has just been to a Taylor Swift concert, knows that nothing unites people better than a common cause. He doesn’t just make his enemies stronger as individuals. He makes them stronger as a team. How is that responsible?"

Flash's Rogues, the Superman Revenge Squad, Mudpack, the League of Smiles, the Legion of Doom? Pretty much every long published superhero or superhero team has had to deal with his beaten opponents uniting for the mutual goal of revenge. Again, Spidey isn't alone here.

A few thoughts on your detailed plan to building a better hero:

"The hero must defeat their villains/enemies/criminals by making them disappear without a trace, either by killing them and destroying the body or by sending them into a domain from which they can never escape"

"The hero must make sure that nobody knows the villains they kill or disappear are dead, must never take credit for their disappearance, and must do everything possible to disconnect themselves from the villain"

What you just described as the "perfect superhero" is actually the serial killer Dexter Morgan. A character who still suffers great personal losses (such as his wife to a vengeful killer) and resorts to crimes such as planting evidence in a deceased detective's apartment to clear his name. Committing crimes to protect your secret identity isn't particularly heroic.

Another problem is that by declaring themselves "secret judge, jury and executioner" they have effectively removed themselves from any accountability. The criminal is robbed of their right to a public trial, and in a universe in which the power of mind control exists, as well as multiple impersonators, (the Chameleon, Skrulls, Mystique) this is dangerous.

Your hero also takes away a criminal character's ability to seek redemption. Hobie Brown was just a mixed up teenager who became the Prowler, had Spider-Man killed or spirited him away indefinitely to some secret gulag, he would have never became a hero and one of Spidey's most trusted allies. Poor Hobie! Don't forget that Black Widow, Hawkeye, Rogue, etc. were all ex-criminals given a second chance. Your perfect hero's methods doesn't allow for second chances though.

"The Norman Osborns and Lex Luthors of the world will start making up their own targets, irrationally lashing out at what they think is the source of the threat."

Most likely innocent people will bear the brunt of this backlash. Business associates, neighbors, attorneys, a pastor, maybe that guy that cut them off in traffic! Create a wave of paranoia and everyone is potentially in the crosshairs, nice work hero!
Besides creating a city wide panic,possibly leading to the increase of state surveillance and the eventual discovery of your hero's identity, it also contradicts the "intimidation factor" that you say said a hero must possess. Why should anyone be scared of Batman or Daredevil if they have no idea what they are capable of? Mere grandiose theatrics???

"If it were a comic book, it wouldn’t be very interesting because the outcome would be too final."

At least you admit this would probably not make a very enjoyable/marketable ongoing comic book series. But why single out Spider-Man as a failure when the problems are simply elements of the fantasy hero genre itself???? What about heroes such as Hank Pym, who accidentally created a genocidal robot? Or when he actively concocted another threat to the Avengers simply so he could play the hero and thus prevent his own court martial? Iron Man is another hero that has caused a great many headaches for the denizens of the Marvel Universe, how do they higher on the competence scale than Peter Parker???

[Mister Mets]

From a cold practical results orientated point of view you grossly misrepresented the facts.

You created a false criteria by which to measure the character against because you entirely misunderstood what his goals actually were. I mean you say Spider-Man didn't generate the kinds of results he wanted when he began his career but there was never ever a point where any story clearly laid in stone what those were. But over time the idea is simple. He helps people when they are in need.

He isn't a 'crime fighter', like Batman is or even Daredevil. He simply uses his powers to help people as he sees emergencies in progress or whilst he's on patrol looking for them. Spider-Man's goals are not orientated towards crime. In his reason for being a superhero stopping a burning building is of as much importance as busting up a gun smuggling operation or finding a missing child or getting a medicine to someone in dire need of it.

This makes his goals more open ended than Batman's. There isn't an endgame for him. All he wants to do is alleviate dangers and emergencies as they occur not campaign to make the world a better place long term beyond just putting away criminals as he sees them. And it works too.

You ignored the behavioral patterns of the actual characters in the series and wider marvel and DC universes, including even adaptations of them.

And most egregiously you entirely ignored at least two poignant instances where it was shown Spider-Man is a criminal deterrent. Go read ASm #50 and watch Spectacular Spider-Man S01e06 and with the latter bear in mind Spider-Man is the ONLY superhero in NYC in that universe.

Good catch on Amazing 50. It showed what happened when Spider-Man takes some time off: the Kingpin took over New York's crime scene.

[JoeWithoutFear]

Spidey was incompetent in his earliest days. By the 70s he was solid. It stayed that way until ... the last few years when he's been turned into kind of foil.

[comicscollector]

Not at all.
There is a diference between being a incompetent hero to a hero with human characteristics,so by other words Spider-Man is actually a character that is not perfect (therefore makes mistakes) but by saving people and living up the responibilities that came with the powers makes him a competent hero.

[SpideyCeo]

Spidercide your rebuttal was shut dowm by slott along time ago, peter does more than the pick up cleaning of hero work, he actually helps enrich human life and supports outside the costume. Your lowball bias on what the character is is flawes written to support your own viewpoints, Spider-man simply is written by others to have different ways to be a superhero not just a daily purse snatcher.

[Vegeta]

Spidercide your rebuttal was shut dowm by slott along time ago, peter does more than the pick up cleaning of hero work, he actually helps enrich human life and supports outside the costume. Your lowball bias on what the character is is flawes written to support your own viewpoints, Spider-man simply is written by others to have different ways to be a superhero not just a daily purse snatcher.

No, it didn't change Peter's M.O. at all, it simply provided more resources for him to accomplish it. For Spider-Man, saving lives still comes before punishing the wicked. Just because he has a cool car like Batman doesn't mean that his personality or crime fighting goals have shifted.

[Spidercide]

No, it didn't change Peter's M.O. at all, it simply provided more resources for him to accomplish it. For Spider-Man, saving lives still comes before punishing the wicked. Just because he has a cool car like Batman doesn't mean that his personality or crime fighting goals have shifted.

Spider-Man does what he can with the time and resources that he can but he isn't 100% altruistic all the time. He lives a stressful life and sometimes fucks up and needs time to himself.

But for the record when he took money from a mobster who wanted him to be his body guard (he was going to protect the guy for free in any case so why not make money from it) he put the guy in jail and then used the money to build a public library in honour of Gwen Stacy.

He took a job at the shitty inner city school Midtown High had devolved into mostly because he wanted to help the children there. Teachers have crappy jobs the best of times so this was a big deal.

He helped out one of his students' who was homeless and who's brother was an addict.

When a super villain fight wrecked some kids' apartments he gave them his own rent money just to help out.

He took time out of his day to visit a dying child in the Kid who Collected Spider-Man and even revealed his origin story and secret identity to him just because he was so saddened by the kid's situation.

[MarvelMaster616]

Spider-Man does what he can with the time and resources that he can but he isn't 100% altruistic all the time. He lives a stressful life and sometimes fucks up and needs time to himself.

But for the record when he took money from a mobster who wanted him to be his body guard (he was going to protect the guy for free in any case so why not make money from it) he put the guy in jail and then used the money to build a public library in honour of Gwen Stacy.

He took a job at the shitty inner city school Midtown High had devolved into mostly because he wanted to help the children there. Teachers have crappy jobs the best of times so this was a big deal.

He helped out one of his students' who was homeless and who's brother was an addict.

When a super villain fight wrecked some kids' apartments he gave them his own rent money just to help out.

He took time out of his day to visit a dying child in the Kid who Collected Spider-Man and even revealed his origin story and secret identity to him just because he was so saddened by the kid's situation.

I don't deny for a second that Peter does a lot of good. As I said in my OP, I think Peter's heart is in the right place. He definitely has the heart and mentality of a hero. There's a reason why he's one of the most appealing heroes of all time. He relates to a lot of people. He goes out of his way for others. He makes others around him feel good and hopeful. For that, he'll always have a special place in the pantheon of superheroes.

However, the reason I created this thread was to focus on the cold, hard, unpleasant facts surrounding his efforts. I think it's worth discussing. Just how effective is Peter in terms of the big picture? Going out of his way for a dying kid, donating money to a library, and helping a student is great, but he doesn't need super powers to do those things. That just makes him a good soul at heart. But when he puts on that mask and tries to help people on a larger scale, that's when the facts get a little harsh.

I liken it to people who buy carbon credits or protest certain social issues. What they do doesn't actually lead to meaningful change. It just makes themselves feel better and less guilty. Another poster noted that a lot of what Spider-Man does is out of guilt. Peter is driven largely by the guilt he felt for not stopping the mugger who killed his uncle. If all he's trying to do is alleviate his own guilt, then that's not too altruistic in the grand scheme of things. You could even argue it's downright selfish, but that still doesn't take away the good Peter does on a smaller scale.

Now others have argued, and I don't entirely disagree, that this smaller scale is the true heart and intent of Spider-Man's heroism. In that sense, I would concede that he is a competent hero. However, if he truly does seek to make New York a safer city with less crime, then I think the results are mixed at best and telling at worst.

Again, I know people disagree with me. I know I'm making my share of enemies by even starting this discussion, but I still think it's a discussion that's worth having.

[Huntsman Spider]

I don't deny for a second that Peter does a lot of good. As I said in my OP, I think Peter's heart is in the right place. He definitely has the heart and mentality of a hero. There's a reason why he's one of the most appealing heroes of all time. He relates to a lot of people. He goes out of his way for others. He makes others around him feel good and hopeful. For that, he'll always have a special place in the pantheon of superheroes.

However, the reason I created this thread was to focus on the cold, hard, unpleasant facts surrounding his efforts. I think it's worth discussing. Just how effective is Peter in terms of the big picture? Going out of his way for a dying kid, donating money to a library, and helping a student is great, but he doesn't need super powers to do those things. That just makes him a good soul at heart. But when he puts on that mask and tries to help people on a larger scale, that's when the facts get a little harsh.

I liken it to people who buy carbon credits or protest certain social issues. What they do doesn't actually lead to meaningful change. It just makes themselves feel better and less guilty. Another poster noted that a lot of what Spider-Man does is out of guilt. Peter is driven largely by the guilt he felt for not stopping the mugger who killed his uncle. If all he's trying to do is alleviate his own guilt, then that's not too altruistic in the grand scheme of things. You could even argue it's downright selfish, but that still doesn't take away the good Peter does on a smaller scale.

Now others have argued, and I don't entirely disagree, that this smaller scale is the true heart and intent of Spider-Man's heroism. In that sense, I would concede that he is a competent hero. However, if he truly does seek to make New York a safer city with less crime, then I think the results are mixed at best and telling at worst.

Again, I know people disagree with me. I know I'm making my share of enemies by even starting this discussion, but I still think it's a discussion that's worth having.

I think the difference is where each of us considers Spider-Man's scope to extend to. TV Tropes calls the particular type of hero Spider-Man embodies a "Small-Steps Hero," where instead of having a big, overarching agenda to eradicate crime and evil, this kind of hero prefers to help out on a smaller scale that focuses more on each individual s/he encounters. The goal isn't to radically reform, uplift, or save society, the world, or humanity as a whole, but just to help out wherever and whenever possible and if their effort leads to positive impact in the bigger picture, then so be it. If their efforts help even just one person and that's it, that's good enough for them, too, because as the proverb Kamala Khan lives her heroic life by goes: "If you save even one man, it is as if you have saved all of mankind."

That's where Spider-Man's mentality largely is --- doing as much good as he can, for everyone that he can reach, and while his reach may be greater than most, especially with his (unfortunately soon-to-be-defunct) corporation, that's where his focus still lies. He's not the kind of guy who thinks he can wipe out crime or save the world singlehandedly, he's just someone who aims to help people however, whenever, and wherever possible, because he knows bad things could happen if someone doesn't step in, and waiting for someone else to do it for him isn't an option anymore thanks to his abilities and the fateful lesson he learned from his Uncle Ben.

[Spidercide]

I don't deny for a second that Peter does a lot of good. As I said in my OP, I think Peter's heart is in the right place. He definitely has the heart and mentality of a hero. There's a reason why he's one of the most appealing heroes of all time. He relates to a lot of people. He goes out of his way for others. He makes others around him feel good and hopeful. For that, he'll always have a special place in the pantheon of superheroes.

However, the reason I created this thread was to focus on the cold, hard, unpleasant facts surrounding his efforts. I think it's worth discussing. Just how effective is Peter in terms of the big picture? Going out of his way for a dying kid, donating money to a library, and helping a student is great, but he doesn't need super powers to do those things. That just makes him a good soul at heart. But when he puts on that mask and tries to help people on a larger scale, that's when the facts get a little harsh.

I liken it to people who buy carbon credits or protest certain social issues. What they do doesn't actually lead to meaningful change. It just makes themselves feel better and less guilty. Another poster noted that a lot of what Spider-Man does is out of guilt. Peter is driven largely by the guilt he felt for not stopping the mugger who killed his uncle. If all he's trying to do is alleviate his own guilt, then that's not too altruistic in the grand scheme of things. You could even argue it's downright selfish, but that still doesn't take away the good Peter does on a smaller scale.

Now others have argued, and I don't entirely disagree, that this smaller scale is the true heart and intent of Spider-Man's heroism. In that sense, I would concede that he is a competent hero. However, if he truly does seek to make New York a safer city with less crime, then I think the results are mixed at best and telling at worst.

Again, I know people disagree with me. I know I'm making my share of enemies by even starting this discussion, but I still think it's a discussion that's worth having.

Your argument is highly flawed.

To begin with you fail to provide sufficient evidence through specific examples.

You continue to hinge a lot of your claims upo the idea that Spider-Man's 'mission' is to actively reduce crime large scale when it isn't. He isn't trying to do that, he literally cannot do that and if he tried he'd fail.

Any strides Batman or Daredevil might've made is owed a Hell of a lot to thier resources, specific skills and access to institutions. E.g. Batman works in concert with the police bending the rules behind the scenes in ways they cannot and Matt Murdock is literally a lawyer. None of that applies to Spider-Man through reasons beyond his control. He tried and failed to form an official alliance with the police force.

You are also ignoring how again it is hard canon that Spider-Man' presence reduced the crime rate as his absence led to it increasing and allowing Kingpin to rise to power.

In terms of the Big Picture he has saved countless lives multiple times, prevented egregiously more property damage than would've otherwise been caused and generally made a difference more times than one could count. That isn't big picture enough for you?

Again...he's saved a beach full of people that represented the tiniest amount of lives he's saved over the years.

Saving one life>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a criminal still being a criminal after he captures them because the prison system, reform system and other such institutions in the real world didn't reform them...but okay its Spider-Man's fault for not scaring them.

Like...I'm pretty sure enough people are scared shitless of the police in the real world and yet career criminals are still a thing.

What is he supposed to do in any kind of practical terms?

It's not like h has economic or political power to mend the socioeconomic inequalities which cause crime, let alone the few nutjobs on the streets.

Then we get to the big point. Spider-Man is a selfish dick and not altrusitic because a lot of what he does is about guilt and him trying to alleviate his guilt over Uncle Ben's death.

Yeah...no.


No that is entirely not true.

See this is a case wherein a misinterpretation and idea gets repeated and flanderizded so much that it then makes it grows out of control, becomes pervasive and even works its way into official works.

It doesn't stop it being untrue.

Consider these examples.

"Batman is about vengeance" Perhaps the golden age version was. The modern rendition of Batman though is NOT about vengeance at all but rather justice. This is evident in Batman Begins when he throws away the gun he was intending to use on Joe Chill, in Batman vs Robin where Damien repeats Bruce's mantra of 'Justice not vengeance' and in Batman Mask of the Phantasm wherein Alfred comments that Andrea Beaumont fell into the pit of vengeance a long time ago and that dspite risking that every night Bruce has avoided that.

"Superman is about alienation because he is an immigrant" Siegel/Shuster's vision of Superman and Byrne's re-emphasising of that vision portrayed Superman as the ultimate immigrant within the American ideal. He came to America from his home country, found success and then used his skills to help his adoptive home as an integrated citizen. He first and foremost considers himself a citizen of Earth and sees himself as a human being with some special skills he can use to help out. Not an alien outsider who stands seperate from humanity as some kind of 'other' or 'God'. As Batman said under Jeph Loeb's pen, Superman has the power of a God but it never even occurs to him. Because he absolutely does not see himself that way.

"Wonder Woman is a bad ass Amazonian warrior Princess who maybe an misandrist". Marsten's Wodner Woman and Perez's which is based upon that version is nothing like this. Wonder Woman can fight and does so out of necesssity but she is an ambassador of peace and champions love and compassion, very much in line with her patron Aphrodite. She fights as a last resort, tries to reform her enemies and engages in diplomatic and social work. She does NOT hate men nor does she feel women are somehow better. She is not a female Wolverine, a Saiyan, a spartan or indeed Xena. In other words Azzarello's Wonder Woman is fucked up yo

[Spidercide]

"Gwen Stacy was a sweet, brilliant young woman, best friends with Mary jane watson and had a fairy tale romance with Peter Parker tinged with tragedy". Any time you encoutner Gwen Stacy in any form from the 1990s onwards she will be some variant on this idea. None of it is true of the actual on page character from ASM #31-121. Gwen was an irrational hot headed, mean spirited woman in Ditko's run who mellowed out briefly before becoming a weeping and anxious mess of a silver age marvel girlfriend toward the end of her existence. Her romance with Peter was royally fucked up before we got any Sins past retcons and her and MJ were at best frenemies but never BFFs.

Which then brings us to Spider-Man and being driven by guilt.

This idea of Spider-Man as you say renders him selfish but more than this it renders him reckless, mentally unstable and generally unheroic...if it was true.

But here is a CRAZY idea...what if, now brace yourselves for this one, what if Spider-Man wasn't defined and motivated by guilt but instead *here it comes*...by a sense of responsibility.

This isn't 616 but it basically sums up 616 regardless

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VfHdLPYLRw...c42/RCO018.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6uK6aD16Ld...c42/RCO019.jpg

But hey if that ain't good enough for you, well Tom DeFalco, the man recognized as knowing more about Spider-Man than any comics creator ever, author of the Ultimate guide to Spider-Man, 2 runs on ASM, 1 Spec run, 140+ issues of SPider-Girl and former editor of Spider-Man and Marvel EIC who by the way began reading Spider-Man in 1962, says Spider-Man is about responsibility.

Spider-Man 2002, Amazing Spider-Man 2012, Spider-Man 2000 for Playstation 1, Spectaular Spider-Man Animated and Spider-Man the Animated Series very plainly and explicitely laid it out that Spider-Man is motivated by this rarely heard phrase which equates to:

With Great power there must also come great responsibilty.

Now coincidentally that exact phrase also shows up in this relatively obscure 616 Spider-Man comic book called Amazing Fantasy #15.

In fact is one of the last things said in the issue which is intended to sum up the moral of the story and thereby defines what the story as a whole was all about.

You see because this guy Peter Parker hated his teenage peers for mocking him and when he got these crazy super powers his first thought was to cash in on them which he did and got famous off them in the process. The idea of using them for anything else never crossed his mind, in fact he literally said he only cared about his aunt and uncle and nobody else. This was proven true when he let this criminal just run passed him even though he could've like tripped him up or used his immense super powers to stop him. Ironically that dude killed his uncle and after that was when the omniscient narrator decided to inform us he'd learned this lesson about great power = great responsibility.

It's ALMOST like the entire story was constructed in such a way as to be an aesop's fable about how people shouldn't be selfish and help those if they have the ability to use those merely because it is the right thing to do.

It's almost like the point of the story was that Peter Parker should never have been using his powers for self interest in the first place and should've been using them to help others from the start.

It's almost like this point gets backed up in Amazing Spider-Man #50 when Peter flahses back to his trackng down the burglar by referring to his actions as him 'becoming Spider-Man for real for the first time'

It's almost like Stan Lee and Steve Ditko were trying to zag where the DC characters zigged by having thier character help people because it's the right thing to do except he doesn't just do it, he has to learn this lesson the hard way and this plays into other Marvel characters of the era like the Fantastic Four and Thor being atypical superheroes and part of the 1960s counter culture. But at the same time still be ultimately heroic as all of the Marvel pantheon were at the end of the day, e.g. the Fantastic Four were dysfunctional but still tried to help the world.

It's almost like the character's sense of guilt is not the root of his heroism but rather a by product of the actual root of his heroic efforts which is his sense of responsibility.

It's almost like Amazing Fantasy #15 as the debut and origin of Spider-Man is the most important and authorative source for who the character is or was intended to be from the start.

In short it is almost like Spider-Man being driven by guilt and a desire to gain forgivness for Uncle Ben's death and avoid more guilt on his shoulders is a gross misunderstanding of the character perpetuated ad infinitum despite the repetition of the phrase 'With Great Power there must also come Great Responsibility' throughout 5 decades of comics and other media and yet for some unknown reason people still cling to the idea of him being about guilt despite it entirely invalidating the gr8 pwr=gr8 resp thing.

[SpideyCeo]

Spider-Man does what he can with the time and resources that he can but he isn't 100% altruistic all the time. He lives a stressful life and sometimes fucks up and needs time to himself.

But for the record when he took money from a mobster who wanted him to be his body guard (he was going to protect the guy for free in any case so why not make money from it) he put the guy in jail and then used the money to build a public library in honour of Gwen Stacy.

He took a job at the shitty inner city school Midtown High had devolved into mostly because he wanted to help the children there. Teachers have crappy jobs the best of times so this was a big deal.

He helped out one of his students' who was homeless and who's brother was an addict.

When a super villain fight wrecked some kids' apartments he gave them his own rent money just to help out.

He took time out of his day to visit a dying child in the Kid who Collected Spider-Man and even revealed his origin story and secret identity to him just because he was so saddened by the kid's situation.

These are things Batman has done even without money. Why is Spidey so special compared to any other so called street level good samaratin.

[Alan2099]

Spider-man has quite literally saved the entire world on several occasions. How much bigger do you need him to go?

These are things Batman has done even without money.

Batman has never been without money. It's easier to be nice and take time off to do things for people when you have countless employees to cover for you and never have to worry about paying your bills or if you can afford supper for the night.

[Spidercide]

These are things Batman has done even without money. Why is Spidey so special compared to any other so called street level good samaratin.

What specifically has Batman done that Spdier-Man hasn’t without money?