Batman #21 Preview/Discussion

[Rikdad]

re: the realism of the fight between RF and Batman, it seems that RF was there for a very specific purpose and Batman wasn't it. He beat Batman up because he's a sadist and because Batman kept the fight going, not because it was his goal or necessary for his goal.

Batman probably should have done the old grizzly bear encounter tactic of lying down and playing dead. But that's not Batman.

The question is: What was RF's goal? Did he destroy the letter because it was his goal or as a random act of vandalism? Did he pick up the button because it was his goal or because he was curious once he saw it? Or both?

[Caivu]

The question is: What was RF's goal? Did he destroy the letter because it was his goal or as a random act of vandalism? Did he pick up the button because it was his goal or because he was curious once he saw it? Or both?

I thought something was mentioned about the button "calling" to him. And he ripped up the letter just because he's a dick.

[mr_crisp]

Something weird that I noticed is the coloring of Batman's costume. It is blue and gray. I always associate that coloring with light heartedness with Batman and DC has been making Batman dark during the past decade or so.

[Coal Tiger]

re: the realism of the fight between RF and Batman, it seems that RF was there for a very specific purpose and Batman wasn't it. He beat Batman up because he's a sadist and because Batman kept the fight going, not because it was his goal or necessary for his goal.

Batman probably should have done the old grizzly bear encounter tactic of lying down and playing dead. But that's not Batman.

The question is: What was RF's goal? Did he destroy the letter because it was his goal or as a random act of vandalism? Did he pick up the button because it was his goal or because he was curious once he saw it? Or both?

I think Reverse Flash is simply a sadist. This is the same one from Flashpoint, right? Everything he did in that book was to hurt Barry Allen. He is aware of Batman, and how the Flashpoint universe's Batman killed him, but his interest is always in Barry Allen. Doesn't mean he can't take a few minutes for some random sadism towards the son of the man who killed him.

[Caivu]

About the Western Conference thing:

Screenshot_20170424-120329.jpg

[Bookem Danno]

I got to the end of Batman #21 frustrated or feeling incomplete. First of all, besides, the logic of the foot stab, the Batman stalemate with Reverse Flash was very unconvincing as presented. Also, this was all tease for Rebirth revamping with no proper footnoting or prepping readers for a cosmic level story which is extremely atypical/undemanded of happening in this book or 'Tec - except for that grabber cover.

The Saturn Girl stuff was interesting only because I know who she is and know what a bum steer the LSH has gotten from DC for years now. Also the panel layout during the countdown was fine, especially with the duplicated seconds count every so often to detail the speed. But those are minor positives along with the fine artwork.

[Scott Taylor]

Batman probably should have done the old grizzly bear encounter tactic of lying down and playing dead. But that's not Batman.

Also Batman was trying to keep RF in the room until Barry showed up.

[DIVINITY]

On the whole, a great start to the story-arc.

I loved the Batman vs. Reverse-Flash fight, particularly the way Batman managed to find a way to 'outwit' Thawne with the 'stab him in the foot' gambit. I also liked Batman's assertion that he didn't need to win...he just needed to keep Thawne occupied long enough for Flash to show up. A more 'realistic' take on Batman fighting superhumans arguably.

I actually liked the hockey game thing. Since it was tied to Saturn Girl's plot, her 'predictions' coming true kinda spoke to the nature of time and the immutability of fate in some cases...both of which are themes that will no doubt be explored as this Rebirth story continues to pan out. I also liked that it was the reason for Barry to be late - not only from a narrative perspective, but also because stopping off for a few seconds to see if he can help a dying sportsman seems a very 'Barry Allen'-ish thing to do!

+1 This is pretty much how I felt. Great start to the arc...

[jbmasta]

It's really annoying that DC knew they were going to do this and that there are tricky copyright conditions around the iconic smiley face that Watchmen is best known for. Yet they put it on the lenticular covers even though they couldn't sell those covers outside the US without paying a lot more money. WTF? And to add to the cock-up, my LCS in New Zealand received the non-lenticular versions with the smiley faces on them. What the actual hell? You'd think that for an important story in the Rebirth arc that DC would put more thought and consideration into how it was packaged and delivered.

[jackolover]

Twice in the same week.

There are way too much parallelisms between this issue and Watchmen just like happened the same with Trinity 8 and Infinite Crisis 1.

First, it is very obvious by the iconic nine panel grid of Watchmen that is used until the end of the issue, after the prelude with Saturn Girl, that Dr. Manhattan is assuming control of reality, shaping it.
All the issue since the apparition of Eobard is a homage to last moments of the presumed real button owner, the Comedian. All the beats of the flashback of Comedian murder by Ozymandias and the investigation of Rorschach of the button are relieved by Batman and Eobard.

1. Unexpected apparition of a ally. (Batman though it was Barry, the Comedian saw Ozymandias)
2. Punch in the face (one to Eddie Blake, 11 to Bruce)
3. A destroyed paper (the burned map for Blake/ the letter for Bruce and Eobard also mentioned that Thomas burned just before destroying the letter)
4. Bruce in the floor in the exact same position of Blake.
5. Bruce crashed through the monitor just like Eddie was thrown through the window.
6. The button is picked by someone intrigued by it's mistery (Rorschach /Eobard)
7. That is killed by Dr. Manhattan with his powers.

And then we have at the same time that Batman is fighting the fist fight between players and in Watchmen the fist fight between the lesbian couple and all the street comotion at the same time Veight is giving us the final flashback to the Comedian's death before the clock reaching 00 /12.

Of course it seems decompressed. The original version of this event ocurred in ... 12 panels.

This is certainly more an idea of Geoff Johns, and King only had to script the issue.
So, don't blame him... it was actually very well executed, if you know what you need to see.

Are we at all to be concerned the Watchmen universe is seemingly interacting with a version of the DC Universe? By this I mean, what possible circumstance could have led to the two universes seeping across to one another? It seems shocking to contemplate.

Also, are DC readers at all getting tired of so many shifts in universes and continuity going on in the DC books? It sounds from these posts that it is a confusing mess to try to follow, but people don't seem to have trouble moving from Crisis to CIEO to Flashpoint to 52 to new 52 to Rebirth. That's like 5 changes from the original universe.

I'll just throw this out there - is Rebirth something to do with Marvels Secret Wars destruction of the Multiverse? It would make sense because Secret Wars just ended when Rebirth came to be an issue. It means while Marvels Alternate universes were all destroyed so was DC, Watchmen, and any other universes in other genres, like movies, TV, novels, or comics. In Marvels Battleworld, something like the Button was lodged in the mud being 8 years old, except it was a Raft full of people, not just a button. And Reed Richards became god in the post-Secret Wars Marvel world, just like Dr Manhattan is supposed to have become god in Rebirths DC world. Very curious.

The other reason is that Marvel characters could crossover with DC characters in the past, so, there is a DC universe the Marvel universe has access to, to crossover, so DC universe must have been destroyed like everything else, yes?

[Caivu]

Are we at all to be concerned the Watchmen universe is seemingly interacting with a version of the DC Universe? By this I mean, what possible circumstance could have led to the two universes seeping across to one another? It seems shocking to contemplate.

I don't understand why this should be overly concerning.

Also, are DC readers at all getting tired of so many shifts in universes and continuity going on in the DC books? It sounds from these posts that it is a confusing mess to try to follow, but people don't seem to have trouble moving from Crisis to CIEO to Flashpoint to 52 to new 52 to Rebirth. That's like 5 changes from the original universe.

I'm not, but that might be because the Batverse has been relatively untouched by those.

I'll just throw this out there - is Rebirth something to do with Marvels Secret Wars destruction of the Multiverse? It would make sense because Secret Wars just ended when Rebirth came to be an issue. It means while Marvels Alternate universes were all destroyed so was DC, Watchmen, and any other universes in other genres, like movies, TV, novels, or comics. In Marvels Battleworld, something like the Button was lodged in the mud being 8 years old, except it was a Raft full of people, not just a button. And Reed Richards became god in the post-Secret Wars Marvel world, just like Dr Manhattan is supposed to have become god in Rebirths DC world. Very curious.

The other reason is that Marvel characters could crossover with DC characters in the past, so, there is a DC universe the Marvel universe has access to, to crossover, so DC universe must have been destroyed like everything else, yes?

I think that's waaaaaaay overthinking things. Marvel is completely irrelevent to the current DCU.

[jackolover]

I don't understand why this should be overly concerning.



I'm not, but that might be because the Batverse has been relatively untouched by those.



I think that's waaaaaaay overthinking things. Marvel is completely irrelevent to the current DCU.

Thanks for answering Caivu.

On the first point, who don't you think mixing Watchmen and DC universes is concerning? That appears to be a very radical development. Those two universes were never meant to be mixed like that, right?

[Coal Tiger]

Thanks for answering Caivu.

On the first point, who don't you think mixing Watchmen and DC universes is concerning? That appears to be a very radical development. Those two universes were never meant to be mixed like that, right?

There have been all sorts of inter-universe crossovers that ignore the rules of each respective publisher's multiverse, and some of them, like Avengers/JLA, ended up being canon. It doesn't necessarily mean anything about the fabric of the multiverse since it's all made up anyway.

I don't find anything concerning about Watchmen or at least Doctor Manhattan existing somewhere in the DC multiverse. They own the characters, they can use them however they want.

[Caivu]

Thanks for answering Caivu.

On the first point, who don't you think mixing Watchmen and DC universes is concerning? That appears to be a very radical development. Those two universes were never meant to be mixed like that, right?

I really don't care if they were never supposed to be mixed. I find the fact that they now apparently are to be interesting enough to outweigh any concerns I might have (which I don't have to begin with).

[jackolover]

I really don't care if they were never supposed to be mixed. I find the fact that they now apparently are to be interesting enough to outweigh any concerns I might have (which I don't have to begin with).

Yes, I understand the "interesting enough" phrase. It is interesting Dr Manhattan could vaporise Superman at any second. But I put it in the context of how you don't mix the Marvel Universe with the Ultimate Universe, because a lunatic Hulk eating the Wasp and tearing Wolverine in half becomes (though interesting enough) disrupting to the MU continuity because it breaks the basic laws of the MU - if the Ultimate characters were supposed to be in the MU they would have been written in there in the first place.