Batman #21 Preview/Discussion

[Rikdad]

As far as Thawne, is he ever definitively dead lol? It never seems so.

Thawne himself in this story said that he had been dead and would remain dead for awhile. Clearly, there is convoluted time going on, and he is partly aware of it. Of course, in most if not all of those scenarios, he ends up dying centuries before he is born.

As I noted, the bloodstains on his uniform are absent when he reappears, dying. I suspect that we'll find out that the dying Thawne came from before or way after or another timeline than the one who fought Batman. FYI, there are several unchanging panels during his absence to indicate that time is passing, but it must not be very much time because it's only the amount that Barry Allen is later than he planned.

[WhipWhirlwind]

My only problem with this issue was the fight. Even with a foot wound, RF would still be way way too fast for Bruce to engage h2h. Since its the cave, I would have liked to see him deploy some kind of equilibrium/sense related countermeasure to even the playing field more, like sonics or something.

Aside from that, while i would have liked to see the "Overtime" result in Flash coming in for a big heroic moment, I appreciated him not making the obvious play.

[Chubistian]

My only problem with this issue was the fight. Even with a foot wound, RF would still be way way too fast for Bruce to engage h2h. Since its the cave, I would have liked to see him deploy some kind of equilibrium/sense related countermeasure to even the playing field more, like sonics or something.

Aside from that, while i would have liked to see the "Overtime" result in Flash coming in for a big heroic moment, I appreciated him not making the obvious play.

I'm a big fan of King's run, but I think he still needs to work the fights. I loved the ones in I Am Bane, but in I Am Gotham I found that the fight against Gotham was poorly executed. Just throwing a Batplane at him didn't justify calling the Justice League, and the fight between the League and Gotham was too fast and didn't feel like we where seeing some of the stronger superheroes of the world. In I Am Suicide, one of my critisism is that after the heavy punishment that Bane applied on Batman in the last issue, he was standing as if nothing happened one second later, after Catwoman attacked Bane. At least in I Am Bane, we see Alfred taking care of Bruce several hour after Bane beated him. I know Tom King gives a lot of liberty to the artist and some of the faults can rely on them or in the editors, but the writer is the one that has the clearer idea of where the story is headed, so I can see the artist not wanting to make decisions that could go against what the writer wants, different case is when both artist & writer work as co-argumentist, as Claremont and Byrne in The Dark Phoenix Saga for example

[Rikdad]

Aside from that, while i would have liked to see the "Overtime" result in Flash coming in for a big heroic moment, I appreciated him not making the obvious play.

The interesting thing, which was easy to lose in the chaos of the moment, is that the hockey game led to important consequences. If the hockey fight hadn't happened, Batman still would have been beaten really badly, but he would have been on his feet and conscious (presumably, he's not too badly injured, but we'll see). However, Reverse Flash, if he'd lost to Barry, wouldn't have touched the button and been zapped off to somewhere else. He still would have ripped up the letter.

I feel remiss that it's only now I'm pointing out that Reverse Flash's entry into the Batcave is a direct mirror of and response to Wally entering the cave in Rebirth #1. And what Wally told Bruce to do is remember the letter and ask Barry about it. If the letter was the most important thing to Wally, then it makes sense thematically that destroying it is most important to Thawne (whoever Thawne is working for).

It should be noted, though, Reverse Flash didn't destroy the letter in a cosmic sense –*the fragments of paper are still from another timeline. And they can probably be reassembled into a readable note.

[Frontier]

I think we should resist the temptation to assume that we saw the same Thawne disappear and then promptly reappear. Maybe so, but he was spattered with blood when he zapped out and free of blood (as well as a lot of his own flesh) when he zapped back in. These Thawnes could be from different timelines or different moments in the same timeline. Why have him disappear, then reappear? It may be a trick. More thoughts here:

http://rikdad.blogspot.com/2017/04/b...batman-21.html

That, and future Flash solicits imply he manages to survive this event unless Barry goes to the future to fight a version of Thawne from before he went back in time to kill Nora and cause the time loop.

Blonde + Legion is all I have; it could turn out to be someone else, but SG has more history.

Incidentally, Johns himself put the LSH's Dream Girl into Arkham in a JSA-JLA crossover circa 2006. But this isn't Dream Girl, and the power of prophecy isn't necessary for someone who knows the future.

I think Emerald Empress explicitly said she was after Saturn Girl in this time period, which pretty much confirms who this is.

I also think there was maybe one line referencing her telepathy, but I'm not sure...

[Scott Taylor]

As I mentioned in my annotations, the players had, respectively, the city and colors of Superman and Batman. Curiously, the "Batman" player (black and yellow, from Gotham) is the one named Shuster, and I can't identify a comics creator named Taylor who is of comparable stature to Shuster. So, either the name Shuster is a red herring, or later in the story, we're going to encounter someone who seems to be Batman and is really Superman or vice versa.

It could mean that the majority of the story happens in Gotham, while Batman is out of action due to injuries, and so Superman steps in as a representative of Gotham.

[Rikdad]

It could mean that the majority of the story happens in Gotham, while Batman is out of action due to injuries, and so Superman steps in as a representative of Gotham.

That's a really interesting direction for interpreting it. It seems clear that a Superman-Batman fight where Batman (Shuster) does the beating is being foreshadowed, but that's quite vague as to the details. There was also a quick reference to the hockey players having a history with Central City, and we know who that's referring to.

[Scott Taylor]

There was also a quick reference to the hockey players having a history with Central City, and we know who that's referring to.

Yah, caught that. Something about an incident that started things happening while one of the players was playing for Central City. Perhaps referring to Flashpoint? Really hard to tell, but I'm sure now after reading this issue a couple of time that its got alot more to it than meets the eye.

[Buried Alien]

My only problem with this issue was the fight. Even with a foot wound, RF would still be way way too fast for Bruce to engage h2h. Since its the cave, I would have liked to see him deploy some kind of equilibrium/sense related countermeasure to even the playing field more, like sonics or something.

Aside from that, while i would have liked to see the "Overtime" result in Flash coming in for a big heroic moment, I appreciated him not making the obvious play.

Yeah...I attribute it to Thawne getting overconfident and just toying with Batman. NO WAY Reverse Flash can only hit Batman four times in a second if Thawne REALLY wants to harm/kill Batman immediately.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Red obin]

I liked the issue even if it was a very quick read, it works well as a set up to the story as it is 4 issues and 4 issues cannot be filled with mere detective work. Thawne is a mystery as he is appearing soon in Flash, and is did not exactly "disappear into the speed force under " as he is clearly dead and not running. Maybe, he was send into the near future and is actually beaten up by someone else in the next flash arc and then sent back, though this is unlikely, convoluted and pretty stupid. If Jay Garrick is coming back maybe the speed force is "decluttered." Unleashing Jay, Meena and any other speedster writers want to use like classic zoom, Rival or Bart. Maybe even pre 52 Eobard as the one in this issue is new 52 with pre 52 memories.

Or it 90 % more likely just watchmen stuff and oxymoronic comic book logic.

[J. D. Guy]

From a visual perspective, I was really hooked with this issue. I really got into the tension of the panels and the whole minute ticking down. The fact that Flash didn't get there until well after the minute had passed drove it all home something fierce.

Also, the villain was definitely one and done, but he sure left his mark, and then some. Definitely won't be easy to forget about this encounter. Poor Bats.

[Frontier]

From a visual perspective, I was really hooked with this issue. I really got into the tension of the panels and the whole minute ticking down. The fact that Flash didn't get there until well after the minute had passed drove it all home something fierce.

Also, the villain was definitely one and done, but he sure left his mark, and then some. Definitely won't be easy to forget about this encounter. Poor Bats.

Well, one-and-done in the context of Batman at least...

[Aldoxin]

Great issue, cant wait for Flash next week. The battle should have been more one-sided but hey you cant just straight up kill characters, unless the story justifies it. No way Batman should have survived even 10 minutes with RF, but you know speeches and all. Villians always have to have their speeches.

[Superchick]

That, and future Flash solicits imply he manages to survive this event unless Barry goes to the future to fight a version of Thawne from before he went back in time to kill Nora and cause the time loop.

I think Emerald Empress explicitly said she was after Saturn Girl in this time period, which pretty much confirms who this is.

I also think there was maybe one line referencing her telepathy, but I'm not sure...

Something is off with the whole Saturn Girl plot.

First Batgirl and Supergirl were meant to infiltrate Arkham to liberate a prisoner. In the issue it was changed to CADMUS, the person was an old psychic Supergirl villain.
Then last issue of Supergirl Emerald Empress showed up saying she's spoken to Saturn Girl and Saturn Girl had said Supergirl was to blame for whatever happened that made Emerald Empress angry.
Saturn Girl says in Rebirth everything will be fine, she's freaking out in this.

Putting 2 and 2 together, the Emerald Empress plot has massively changed and the Saturn Girl story is now completely different.

[Rikdad]

Something is off with the who Saturn Girl plot.
Putting 2 and 2 together, the Emerald Empress plot has massively changed and the Saturn Girl story is now completely different.

Excellent points. I hadn't read those other titles, but you seem to have hit the nail on the head.

Many a DC crossover plot has had contradictions from one title to the next. Looks like we have a case. The question is whether it happened by accident or because someone overruled another idea.