Just how and why Marvel decided to turn Rictor and Iceman bisexual/homosexual?

[C-Dot]

For some, it appears to be "You must squee, or else it's bigotry!"

Whatever. To me, the way Bendis handled Bobby is just as annoying as Magneto's crazy history. Is he Jewish? Is he Roma? Who are his kids? Is he Xorn?

Or perhaps it's like Wolverine's crazy history. Lupines? Please.

Marvel writers can't make up their minds, and they'd prefer to retcon as needed than tell a good story. Because the issue at hand is sexuality, though, people retreat into tribalism.

I wish a civil discussion could be had that just focused on what's in the books, what's not in the books, and the quality of the writing. That's what I would LOVE to have with this and replied with that in mind on the topic before.

But it ends up degrading into exactly what you said when you have the "you don't like what I like so you're xyz", hot garbage of "hating minorities" when people from all over have differing opinions on this retcon, opinion spin ("you hate this over other retcons?", "why are you mad about this retcon and xyz?" etc.), accusation without any single iota of truth other than a differing opinion (which is why I respect those who have honest opinion), and the irony of intolerance toward those who hold different opinions. It does turn into tribalism. And it's just....ugh. My thing is this: if you don't have any tangible content backing up your accusation of an opinion other than "they don't like what I like", it would be wise not to paint people a certain way because it makes one look very fraudulent. Go for those who actually HAVE "hate for minorities" and so on.

But yeah, you're right about all of that and other things you stated. Do I think one can have a conversation about this character and the writing that's civil and without the above? Yeah. But it's so few and far between.

In the end, it's a retcon in a comic book. Agree or disagree, it happened. One could support it, not support it, have mixed feelings, or flat out not care.

[C-Dot]

Why dont you google "how about actually" and see what type of context those words are used in, if you honestly weren't trying to make an implication about why I just posted the link and not the actual quote.

You're like 0 for 10 now.

You didn't post the quote. I said "how about actually posting the quote", I posted the quote, and actually talked about the quote. The one being honest here is the one not using false narratives.

I don't need to "google" a thing when it's used exactly like I used it.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

You're like 0 for 10 now.

You didn't post the quote. I said "how about actually posting the quote", I posted the quote, and actually talked about the quote. The one being honest here is the one not using false narratives.

I don't need to "google" a thing when it's used exactly like I used it.

I posted a direct link to the quote. Saying "how about actually posting the quote" makes it sound like I was only posting a link because I didn't want people to see what Carey actually said.

[C-Dot]

I posted a direct link to the quote. Saying "how about actually posting the quote" makes it sound like I was only posting a link because I didn't want people to see what Carey actually said.

And we're still making up storylines....

Make up your mind. Is it I posted that statement because the quote so-called contradicts what you've "already been saying, which is that Mike Carey saw Iceman as being bisexual" or I said that because...wait...."makes it sound like I was only posting a link because I didn't want people to see what Carey actually said"?

How in the world does you posting a link makes it sound like you didn't want people to see "what Carey actually said"? That don't make a lick of sense! And not a thing I said even remotely stated that or your other "assumptions"!

[Dum Dum Dugan]

And we're still making up storylines....

Make up your mind. Is it I posted that statement because the quote so-called "contradicts" what you've "already been saying, which is that Mike Carey saw Iceman as being bisexual" or I said that because...wait...."makes it sound like I was only posting a link because I didn't want people to see what Carey actually said"?

How are the two exclusive?

How in the world does you posting a link makes it sound like you didn't want people to see "what Carey actually said"? That don't make a lick of sense! And not a thing I said even remotely stated that or your other "assumptions"!

The implication being I thought people wouldn't bother to read the interview and would just take my word for it because I had a link saying so.

[Solitaryhawk]

Oh yeah, I still knee-jerk against Psylocke becoming Asian, learning kung fu and dressing like Elektra, or Thunderbird II going from lean and strong to a bulky 'tank,' or Sam becoming an External, or not, or Bobby becoming Reignfire, or not, or how Wolverine was a shy mouse around Mariko, as if he'd never dated before, and has since been retconned into having, like, fifty kids by forty-something other women. Rogue and Gambit have developed all sorts of amazing powers. Bobby himself has evolved from some guy who threw snowballs at Magneto to some sort of ice god that can create semi-sentient ice elementals, and reform himself, and travel halfway around the world through water.

It's comic books. Who he dates, woman or man or alien or demigod or atlantean or inhuman or space-cloud-in-human-form, is always going to be a minor barely-relevant detail compared to what sort of mutant power he's swinging around.

Or Wolverine, for that matter. Introduced with super-speed and claws that came off with his gloves, in an issue of Hulk, IIRC. And now he's an immortal regenerative person whose claws have gone from being metal implants (seen clearly in Days of Future Past), to a thin metal coating over bone claws. Goodness, I hope he didn't have any fans of the super-speed version, 'cause they must be pissed...

Sounds like we're from the same era of comic-collection I also remember when Northstar came out in 1992. It created such a backlash that spineless writers tried to rewrite his background to pass him off as being half-human, half-elf. No joke.

During the same time, Fabian Nicieza left so many ambiguous Easter eggs about Rictor and Shatterstar in X-Force that, when Ric and Star met again in X-Factor #45, their kiss was a huge non-event. Peter David excused Rictor's transition as this: "He had his involvements with females, sure, just as women who eventually decided they were lesbians had involvements with men that they ultimately considered unfulfilling. At this point, at least the way I'm writing him, he's fully committed to the gay lifestyle. He's become honest about it both with others and himself." Rob Liefeld made a huge a-hole of himself about Shatterstar supposedly remaining asexual. The characters have aged, what, seven (comic book) years and aren't supposed to evolve? Ric and Star were just spotted together on New Tian after a 4-year Marvel limbo. Can't say much for the look, but I'm pleased to see them still together (if you're reading this Matthew Rosenberg, THANK YOU).

So, with that said, the Rictor transition took place -for some of us- over decades, so it never came as a shock when he finally came out. Iceman on the other hand - Wow. When I saw it pop up in the forums, I couldn't believe it. So I can understand some of the push-back I'm reading in here, mainly because Iceman is on the A-list of mutant characters with more readers personally invested in him. Me? Meh. DC has a core group of writers who can handle LGBT with finesse. I've yet to see any writer in the Marvel stable who even wants the challenge, with the exception of David.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Actually Nicieza admitted that anything that fans saw in his run as Rictor/Shatterstar was all a bit of teasing on his part, he knew that some thought them to be gay or bi but in his mind he wasn't writing either that way, had he lasted longer on X-Force he would have had Rictor sit Star down and explain to him the different kinds of love, but he left before he could do that so later writers took things in another direction...

[Jdsm24]

Actually Nicieza admitted that anything that fans saw in his run as Rictor/Shatterstar was all a bit of teasing on his part, he knew that some thought them to be gay or bi but in his mind he wasn't writing either that way, had he lasted longer on X-Force he would have had Rictor sit Star down and explain to him the different kinds of love, but he left before he could do that so later writers took things in another direction...

I blame Jeph Loeb for making Shatterstar really suddenly excessively attached to Rictor when previously Gaveedra could barely tolerate Julio and it was he who also made Ultimate Pietro and Wanda openly and expressly twincestuous (Mark Millar was all nudge-nudge-wink-wink "plausible deniability" subtext and implication)

[Anduinel]

Sounds like we're from the same era of comic-collection I also remember when Northstar came out in 1992. It created such a backlash that spineless writers tried to rewrite his background to pass him off as being half-human, half-elf. No joke.

That's incorrect. The half-elf nonsense happened in '87, as a result of Bill Mantlo's tone-deaf "Northstar dies of AIDS" storyline being scrapped, and was itself retconned away in 1990. Marvel didn't handle Northstar at all gracefully in the wake of his coming out, but they never tried to walk it back either.

[Dum Dum Dugan]

previously Gaveedra could barely tolerate Julio

Is that why they went out to a nightclub together in Fabian's run?

[uebersoldat]

I feel like it was more of a Marvel pandering to that demographic in an overly and needlessly obvious way. I don't think it mattered much who it was so long as it was someone more or less front and center. Iceman has been a mainstay X-Man since the beginning so he fit the bill.

My issue with it is if Marvel is going to do something like that they should make it organic, not put it on a damn pedestal. I have a few friends that would agree there. Stop putting LGBT on a pedestal. It exists, it's a normal part of this world, STOP OVER-GLORIFYING IT. People just want to be seen as normal, the others are just attention-mongers.

Marvel has been way too political in the last 5-10 years. Hopefully that is ending or so they have alluded to in recent weeks.

[blanchett]

I feel like it was more of a Marvel pandering to that demographic in an overly and needlessly obvious way. I don't think it mattered much who it was so long as it was someone more or less front and center. Iceman has been a mainstay X-Man since the beginning so he fit the bill.

My issue with it is if Marvel is going to do something like that they should make it organic, not put it on a damn pedestal. I have a few friends that would agree there. Stop putting LGBT on a pedestal. It exists, it's a normal part of this world, STOP OVER-GLORIFYING IT. People just want to be seen as normal, the others are just attention-mongers.

Marvel has been way too political in the last 5-10 years. Hopefully that is ending or so they have alluded to in recent weeks.

You know lots and lots of people thought he was gay for a long long time.

I have no issue with Marvel being political I hate the crossovers, relaunches and shitting on the X-Men and FF because of movie rights. Blaming diversity is just an easy scapegoat.

[Wiccan]

I feel like it was more of a Marvel pandering to that demographic in an overly and needlessly obvious way. I don't think it mattered much who it was so long as it was someone more or less front and center. Iceman has been a mainstay X-Man since the beginning so he fit the bill.

My issue with it is if Marvel is going to do something like that they should make it organic, not put it on a damn pedestal. I have a few friends that would agree there. Stop putting LGBT on a pedestal. It exists, it's a normal part of this world, STOP OVER-GLORIFYING IT. People just want to be seen as normal, the others are just attention-mongers.

Marvel has been way too political in the last 5-10 years. Hopefully that is ending or so they have alluded to in recent weeks.

WTF? Can you talk me about how in the hell is Bobby's story "over glorifying it" LGBT people or "putting them on a pedestal"? That's the most nonsense thing I've read about this whole thing. And please, stop with the politic bullshit. Saying that gay people existing is political is the most annoying self-centered bullshit. If it's a normal part of the world than why are you saying that creating stories about that is "political agenda" or whatever?

[blanchett]

WTF? Can you talk me about how in the hell is Bobby's story "over glorifying it" LGBT people or "putting them on a pedestal"? That's the most nonsense thing I've read about this whole thing. And please, stop with the politic bullshit. Saying that gay people existing is political is the most annoying self-centered bullshit. If it's a normal part of the world than why are you saying that creating stories about that is "political agenda" or whatever?

What even is over glorifying homosexuality?

Something else I will nearly every gay man I have ever met is either comics currently or did at one point....not only do we exist. We are a bit part of the market.

[TimberWolf]

Guess what? Not all people who are gay, bi, trans, lesbian come out at the same time. I'm gay and didn't come out until I was 30. I dated and slept with women because I didn't want to be gay or for anyone to know. I honestly find the whole OP question rather shocking. Do you not have any LGBTQ friends?