Secret Empire, Explained. By Kieran Shiach

[cranger]

Marvel has outright said that they knew Hydra Cap would be controversial is and if they for some reason didn't they would've figured it out after the Steve Rogers book started over a year ago and the comments online. Saying that they have a plan isn't really "blind cheerleading" because it's pretty obvious Marvel wouldn't leave Captain America as a fascist or go into it without having the entire thing planned out.

I'm sure they start off with some sort of concept and potential ending but these kinds of stories always evolve as they go. Marvel relies on this as the story and controversy is what sells. Fixing things afterwards can wait because all they need is some other big event and retcon.

[cranger]

Yes, but if the implications from today's Secret Empire #0 are true spoilers:

it may not have been Hydra or the Red Skull who brainwashed Steve. Instead, they may have restored his real memories of the real 616 timeline.

end of spoilers That's what what happened with Cap even more controversial and divisive than it was already.

That is actually what I was referring to.

[Michael Watkins]

They attempted to kill the Morlocks, which were failed experiments of Dark Beasts.

Besides, the whole story of Magneto employing the Marauders dealt with his hatred of them and his vengeance on them, so you actually argue against your own point with this one.

I would be if either of us knew in what capacity Magneto does or does not work with Hydra. and you argued against your point about them being failed experiments when you mentioned Magneto's hatred of the Marauders.

[stillanerd]

That is actually what I was referring to.

Ah, okay, I get it now.

[Mr Reader]

I'm sure they start off with some sort of concept and potential ending but these kinds of stories always evolve as they go. Marvel relies on this as the story and controversy is what sells. Fixing things afterwards can wait because all they need is some other big event and retcon.

That's true, Secret Invasion was originally the end of the story cycle that began with Avengers Dis-Assembled, but the writers wanted to do Dark Reign mainly because they all wanted a crack at writing Norman Osborn after seeing how fun he was in Ellis's T-Bolts.

[gurkle]

Man, that Polygon piece really does have it all. Doubling down on pretending a one-issue hook is a permanent status quo change; pretending not to understand the concept of a "what if ____ won the war?" story... and most upsetting to me as a Jewish person, doubling down on the cynical and offensive idea that this story is an affront to Jewish creators, soldiers and war crimes victims - in other words, exploiting real-life suffering to pretend that a story you don't like is literally harming people.



Again, if people are upset by this idea I don't really blame them; Marvel's whole point is to get people mad. But I think critics and journalists should be held to a higher standard, and Shiach and other journalists have taken the position that the most offensive interpretation of a story should be privileged, even if it's wrong. It's very cynical and cruel of them.

[cranger]

I would be if either of us knew in what capacity Magneto does or does not work with Hydra. and you argued against your point about them being failed experiments when you mentioned Magneto's hatred of the Marauders.

No, mentioning they were failed experiments was to clarify your statement about the Marauders mission. Magneto hating them does not have to change because of that reveal. The Morlocks were still mutants and Magneto can still hate the Marauders for whatever reason.

Regardless, my only point is that Magneto using the Marauders is not some equivalence to him working for 'Nazi' Hydra (whether they are actually Nazis or not.) Anything that weakens that comparison can't really argue against my own point.

[CentralPower]

The way you talk about the Sons of the Serpent almost like they are heroes. Wowzers.

I was not saying that the Sons of the Serpent were heroic. But, as written by Spencer, they are polemical.

Spencer is not the only writer who is guilty of this. (I am a fan of Ewing, and will be the first to admit that Ewing has gotten polemical, even sounding off about Brexit in letter columns.) But, in Spencer's case, because of his work outside of comics (as a partisan operative) and his comments (about not wanting Republicans reading his work), the polemics are a bit more rankling.

I live in a part of one of the bluest states. I lean to the left.

But, I am still friends with some conservatives (with and without the letter "R" in front of their names). I did not vote for Trump. But, I personally know people who did, and who are not racist. Not all immigration restrictionists are racists. Spencer is too partisan, and his handling of politics too binary. But, people seem to like it. (I just wonder if they read real newspapers.)

[numberthirty]

Secret Empire #0 was brilliant. They've actually got me thinking about dropping that five bucks an issue.

[kilderkin]

So is it that cap is retconed by the cube to being hydra or is it supposed to be that he always has been?

Is either confirmed?

[Majin_O.A.W.]

Years ago on this thread before it was reset, I asked the question would Cap work as a villain. I even presented supporting evidence to say he was a bad guy. People nearly ran me off CBR and called me a Cap Troll. Now I'm seeing Nick Spencer write Cap as an all out villain. I'm seeing a symbol of American hope being written as if he was always a a fascist. And now I'm seeing the fanbase get up in arms saying its disrespectful.

Smh.

This is the Crossing 2017. There's no way that Marvel will let Cap stay this way and this will soon be undone. So fret not. I think it's just amazing that marvel writers are using ideas presented in threads as major arcs now.

[Majin_O.A.W.]

No, mentioning they were failed experiments was to clarify your statement about the Marauders mission. Magneto hating them does not have to change because of that reveal. The Morlocks were still mutants and Magneto can still hate the Marauders for whatever reason.

Regardless, my only point is that Magneto using the Marauders is not some equivalence to him working for 'Nazi' Hydra (whether they are actually Nazis or not.) Anything that weakens that comparison can't really argue against my own point.

It really isn't. He used the Marauders to punish them. To make them do good after they had done wrong for so long.

[Moon Ronin]

Years ago on this thread before it was reset, I asked the question would Cap work as a villain. I even presented supporting evidence to say he was a bad guy. People nearly ran me off CBR and called me a Cap Troll. Now I'm seeing Nick Spencer write Cap as an all out villain. I'm seeing a symbol of American hope being written as if he was always a a fascist. And now I'm seeing the fanbase get up in arms saying its disrespectful.

Smh.

This is the Crossing 2017. There's no way that Marvel will let Cap stay this way and this will soon be undone. So fret not. I think it's just amazing that marvel writers are using ideas presented in threads as major arcs now.

So you're saying this is all your fault?

[Panfoot]

This is the Crossing 2017. There's no way that Marvel will let Cap stay this way and this will soon be undone. So fret not. I think it's just amazing that marvel writers are using ideas presented in threads as major arcs now.

Does this mean we get Teen Steve after the end of this?

[Majin_O.A.W.]

So you're saying this is all your fault?

If I could access the old CBR posts of my Caps Ethics Thread you will see that I and I alone planted the seeds for Cap's heel turn.

Does this mean we get Teen Steve after the end of this?

No, but hopefully it will be forgotten quickly like the Crossing. Maybe when they rest the Universe we'll get 616 Cap instead of 666 Cap.