Secret Empire, Explained. By Kieran Shiach

[Michael Watkins]

No. I don't endorse vigilantism either. It's more the fact that he made Captain a nazi and to add to the injury, he thinks that punching white nationalists is wrong.

punching anyone is generally considered assault. if you think it's right, you do endorse vigilantism.

We are talking about Captain America. The guy who was created by Simon and Kirby, Kirby, the guy who went against nazis at a freaking Marvel office. Then it's just wrong.

he's not a Nazi. he's a fascist.

[Haquim]

Oh. BTW. The backlash over Secret Empire #0 will be BRUTAL. You've been warned.

Oh?

Are you going to flood the cbr marvel forum with complaints?

I'm scared already.

P.S.

I'm going to buy, read and enjoy Secret Empire with great gusto.

[ijacksparrow]

are you threatening to murder Nick Spencer? I'm not sure what you mean by "brutal backlash." you couldn't possibly be talking about the usual fan-crying that goes on whenever someone didn't like a comic book story.

Oh, sure. I've read comics my entire life about superheroes and I'm threatening to murder a dude that will be a nobody when it comes to superhero comics after this "event" is over. This dude is the new Chuck Austen. The sooner he is out of Cap - and superhero comics altogether, I don't really think he is cut for them, not that he isn't a good writer, just not a good superhero writer - the better.

punching anyone is generally considered assault. if you think it's right, you do endorse vigilantism.

My stance on this it's the same of Dan Slott:


https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/823293143365742593

If you want to say that I endorse vigilantism, regardless how utterly wrong that is, be my guest. Nick Spencer's logic about this, the same you are going for, it's utterly flawed and it has been proved wrong time and time again.

he's not a Nazi. he's a fascist.

Who is a fascist? Simon?! Kirby?! What the hell do you even mean? If you mean Richard Spencer, nah. He is very much a nazi:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/ri...ight-movement/

And that's how Captain America deal with nazis:



Whatever Spencer it's writing, that thing isn't Captain America. And it will never be.

[ijacksparrow]

Oh?

Are you going to flood the cbr marvel forum with complaints?

I'm scared already.

P.S.

I'm going to buy, read and enjoy Secret Empire with great gusto.

...congrats? Who is stopping you?

[Cloudman]

No. I don't endorse vigilantism either. It's more the fact that he made Captain a nazi and to add to the injury, he thinks that punching white nationalists is wrong. We are talking about Captain America. The guy who was created by Simon and Kirby, Kirby, the guy who went against nazis at a freaking Marvel office. Then it's just wrong.

Edit: And look, I'm all for making fun out of any of the extremes: extreme right or extreme left. They seem the same to me. With that said, when you defend a freaking nazi, you crossed a line that I'm not crossing. And I don't necessarily blame Spencer. What I think echoes what Alex de Campi said here:

https://twitter.com/alexdecampi/stat...79774502490114

Punching an enemy combatant in a war =/= Punching a citizen of your country whom you dislike during peacetime. Don't blame Nick Spencer for being smart enough to recognise the distinction, and principled enough to not let it slide just because doing so would be politically expedient.

[ijacksparrow]

Punching an enemy combatant in a war =/= Punching a citizen of your country whom you dislike during peacetime. Don't blame Nick Spencer for being smart enough to recognise the distinction, and principled enough to not let it slide just because doing so would be politically expedient.

Sure. Let's just let nazis punch people first instead, right?



Does this look like "peacetime" enough to you, buddy?

Like J. A. Micheline says, "the stance of waiting for an oppressive structure to "punch first" supposes that you can, structurally or otherwise, afford to take that hit". So yeah, my stance is pretty much punch the hell out of nazis. Suckerpunch all of them. Pretty sure Jack Kirby would agree hard with me on that one.

[Michael Watkins]

Sure. Let's just let nazis punch people first instead, right?

that's assault, too! they are both wrong.

[gurkle]

Who is a fascist? Simon?! Kirby?! What the hell do you even mean? If you mean Richard Spencer, nah. He is very much a nazi:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/ri...ight-movement/

Note the subtle way you go from "this person is racist scum" to "this person is a literal Nazi" to "this person should be punched even if they're not doing or threatening violence." And this logic has been used for people who are even less Nazis than this guy.

Which is why people get upset. It's not that they're defending racist scum, it's that they know the point of this is to redefine unprovoked violence as provoked violence.

And that's how Captain America deal with nazis:

This whole fantasy of Captain America punching Nazis has become the equivalent of the '70s Death Wish or Dirty Harry fantasy, where Clint Eastwood or Charles Bronson (or the Punisher, to name a Marvel character partly based on them) broke the rules to mow down criminal scum. People project themselves onto Cap and dream of defeating people they don't like by punching really hard.

It hardly needs to be said, but in real life there is no Captain America and ideologies are not defeated with punching.

[Shirayuki]

Oh, sure. I've read comics my entire life about superheroes and I'm threatening to murder a dude that will be a nobody when it comes to superhero comics after this "event" is over. This dude is the new Chuck Austen. The sooner he is out of Cap - and superhero comics altogether, I don't really think he is cut for them, not that he isn't a good writer, just not a good superhero writer - the better.




My stance on this it's the same of Dan Slott:


https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/823293143365742593

If you want to say that I endorse vigilantism, regardless how utterly wrong that is, be my guest. Nick Spencer's logic about this, the same you are going for, it's utterly flawed and it has been proved wrong time and time again.




Who is a fascist? Simon?! Kirby?! What the hell do you even mean? If you mean Richard Spencer, nah. He is very much a nazi:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/ri...ight-movement/

And that's how Captain America deal with nazis:



Whatever Spencer it's writing, that thing isn't Captain America. And it will never be.

He is obviously saying that Steve is a facist.

Also, I don't get saying Spencer isn't a fit for cape books when he has written stuff people liked in the past and the opinions towards his Cap books aren't exactly as negative as you seem to imply.

[ijacksparrow]

Note the subtle way you go from "this person is racist scum" to "this person is a literal Nazi" to "this person should be punched even if they're not doing or threatening violence." And this logic has been used for people who are even less Nazis than this guy.

Which is why people get upset. It's not that they're defending racist scum, it's that they know the point of this is to redefine unprovoked violence as provoked violence.



This whole fantasy of Captain America punching Nazis has become the equivalent of the '70s Death Wish or Dirty Harry fantasy, where Clint Eastwood or Charles Bronson (or the Punisher, to name a Marvel character partly based on them) broke the rules to mow down criminal scum. People project themselves onto Cap and dream of defeating people they don't like by punching really hard.

It hardly needs to be said, but in real life there is no Captain America and ideologies are not defeated with punching.

Americans punching nazis isn't a Captain America imagery. It's famous among comic book fans because of Cap, yes. But it's literally an American tradition. And one of the few of the good ones, I'd say, as a foreigner. There's no room for nazis in this World anymore. Regardless how you want to call them.

[Michael Watkins]

Oh, sure. I've read comics my entire life about superheroes and I'm threatening to murder a dude that will be a nobody when it comes to superhero comics after this "event" is over. This dude is the new Chuck Austen. The sooner he is out of Cap - and superhero comics altogether, I don't really think he is cut for them, not that he isn't a good writer, just not a good superhero writer - the better.

Chuck Austen never penned a marvel event, as far as I know. he definitely didn't make the news with it. Nick Spencer has nothing to worry about. he's already one of Marvel's top talents.

My stance on this it's the same of Dan Slott:

don't put words in Slott's mouth. that tweet can be read more than one way. he said that he picked violence-isn't-the-answer as the hill to die on. then he threw his hands up in frustration; maybe after someone like you argued with him.

If you want to say that I endorse vigilantism, regardless how utterly wrong that is, be my guest. Nick Spencer's logic about this, the same you are going for, it's utterly flawed and it has been proved wrong time and time again.

like when?

Who is a fascist? Simon?! Kirby?! What the hell do you even mean? If you mean Richard Spencer, nah. He is very much a nazi:

I was talking about Captain America/Steve Rogers. he's not a Nazi. he started a new branch of Hydra. it's stated several times in the text of the story that you clearly haven't been reading. he killed the Red Skull because the latter corrupted Hydra/aligned it with Nazism. you are arguing from a position of ignorance.

[Shirayuki]

There's also instances of Captain America being against punching Nazis outside of wartime so I don't see the point in going down this road. We don't even know how Spencer Cap feels on the matter and we can't assume that he believes the exact same thing Spencer does.

[Inversed]

he's not a Nazi. he's a fascist.

Yep, that's exactly right, this Cap is not a nazi, he's a fascist.

I mean, given Cap himself states how he doesn't like Hydra's approach and took the whole "tear it down from the inside and rebuild it in my own image" approach kind of solidified that? Plus it's not like the books are trying to defend Cap or say he's in the right (even if he may have some good points) he is very clearly the villain and the end goal is to stop him.

I don't know what's the problem with this.

I was talking about Captain America/Steve Rogers. he's not a Nazi. he started a new branch of Hydra. it's stated several times in the text of the story that you clearly haven't been reading. he killed the Red Skull because the latter corrupted Hydra/aligned it with Nazism. you are arguing from a position of ignorance.

And you explained it even better, thank you!

[ijacksparrow]

He is obviously saying that Steve is a facist.

Also, I don't get saying Spencer isn't a fit for cape books when he has written stuff people liked in the past and the opinions towards his Cap books aren't exactly as negative as you seem to imply.

My point is that I'm not saying that he isn't a good writer. I sincerely think he is. I disagree fundamentally with several of his stances, but I truly think he is a good writer. The realization that he probably shouldn't be writing superhero comics tho comes from this twitter exchange and analyzing how his worldviews have affected both Caps books:

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/04...alex-de-campi/

I genuinely think that he'd be happier writing indie comics. Am I preaching for him to be banned from comics? No. Do I think he'll have much of a career in superhero comics after tomorrow and the whole debacle that Secret Empire will bring? Also no. Is he talented tho? Yes. Maybe not for superhero comics, and I'm not sure if he'll even have a choice after Secret Empire is over. I doubt that this will have the type of backlash that Marvel will be able to simply walk away. If his comic book sales were any good that could be a different story. They aren't, tho.

[Michael Watkins]

Americans punching nazis isn't a Captain America imagery. It's famous among comic book fans because of Cap, yes. But it's literally an American tradition. And one of the few of the good ones, I'd say, as a foreigner. There's no room for nazis in this World anymore. Regardless how you want to call them.

and punching them accomplishes what, exactly? why are you posting on a comic book messageboard instead of hunting them down? and who should be exterminated after you're done with the narrow category of Nazis? will people who don't like Mexicans be next? how about misogynists? let me know where you draw the line.