Thread Drift: Should Spider-Man Get Older?

[Bor]

Aging and progression are not the same thing a character can progress between ages 15 and 15 and 2 months. Peter as a character clearly changed between ASM #1 and ASM #27 as did Liz, Betty, even Flash and Aunt May (not Jonah though). The fact that you wouldn't have been able to tell at first glance that every issue represented a time skip of several months of his life didn't matter to that. Hell Peter didn't even LOOK the same since he'd dropped the glasses.

Also no, 2 years. ASM #1 was published in 1963. ASM #28 in 1965.

Why should we ignore AF? That came out in 1962 so 3 years.

[Lee]

The fact that you wouldn't have been able to tell at first glance that every issue represented a time skip of several months of his life didn't matter to that.

It was Peter's senior year from at least as early as #8.

[Spidercide]

Why should we ignore AF? That came out in 1962 so 3 years.

Fine then 3 years whatever. If we include it then there is even more progression

It was Peter's senior year from at least as early as #8.

Its been retconned that he was 15 when he got his powered rendering that one caption impossible. it also doesn't make much sense considering Mysterio claimed that he'd hated Spider-Man for years in ASM #24 despite his debut being a mere 11 issues earlier

[Lee]

Its been retconned that he was 15 when he got his powered rendering that one caption impossible.

We're not talking about a retcon that came decades later, we're talking about your claim that there was super fast growth and aging during the high school era of the Lee/Ditko run. There was never any talk of midterms or finals or proms or summer vacation, there was no indication that the cast had moved up a grade at any point. Prior to the graduation issue Peter and co were pretty much frozen in time.

[WebLurker]

We're not talking about a retcon that came decades later, we're talking about your claim that there was super fast growth and aging during the high school era of the Lee/Ditko run. There was never any talk of midterms or finals or proms or summer vacation, there was no indication that the cast had moved up a grade at any point. Prior to the graduation issue Peter and co were pretty much frozen in time.

Well, a lot of times in serial fiction, there is an assumption of time passage but little indication of the exact timestamps, allowing for greater flexibility in storytelling. Case in point, in the 24th century-era Star Trek TV shows (Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, and Voyager), each season equaled a year's worth of time and adventures for the crew, but how they were spread out across that year was generally a little vague. So, not frozen in time, but the passage of time is not spelled out.

[Lee]

Well, a lot of times in serial fiction, there is an assumption of time passage but little indication of the exact timestamps, allowing for greater flexibility in storytelling. Case in point, in the 24th century-era Star Trek TV shows (Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, and Voyager), each season equaled a year's worth of time and adventures for the crew, but how they were spread out across that year was generally a little vague. So, not frozen in time, but the passage of time is not spelled out.

That's mostly due to actors getting older. It wasn't the norm for American comics and cartoons in the early 1960s. In the entire Stan Lee run the only indication of the characters aging was the high school graduation issue. Everything prior to it was static, as was everything that came after. That's not gradual aging, that's an isolated status quo shift.

[Tuck]

It wasn't the norm for American comics and cartoons in the early 1960s. In the entire Stan Lee run the only indication of the characters aging was the high school graduation issue. Everything prior to it was static, as was everything that came after. That's not gradual aging, that's an isolated status quo shift.

Specific dates were referenced from time to time in comic stories in the early years of Marvel.

[Spidercide]

We're not talking about a retcon that came decades later, we're talking about your claim that there was super fast growth and aging during the high school era of the Lee/Ditko run. There was never any talk of midterms or finals or proms or summer vacation, there was no indication that the cast had moved up a grade at any point. Prior to the graduation issue Peter and co were pretty much frozen in time.

The absence of clear indications of a passage of time does not by neccessity remove the possibility that time is passing.

In fact given how events would build upon one another in sequence and the characters developed a passage of time was obviously implied. In ASm #24 Mysterio claimed he'd wanted revenge on Spider-Man for yearS, in the plural. Mysterio debuted in ASm #13. Thereby proving time was passing.

Finally my point was more about the fact that the characters were progressing and developing more so than seeing clear cut indications of the time of year shifting.

[Lee]

In fact given how events would build upon one another in sequence and the characters developed a passage of time was obviously implied. In ASm #24 Mysterio claimed he'd wanted revenge on Spider-Man for yearS, in the plural. Mysterio debuted in ASm #13. Thereby proving time was passing.

Are you honestly suggesting that there was a 2+ year passage of time between #13 and #24, published 11 months apart? After #8 established Peter was in his senior year? Do you think that's what Stan Lee was going for?

[Spidercide]

Are you honestly suggesting that there was a 2+ year passage of time between #13 and #24, published 11 months apart? After #8 established Peter was in his senior year? Do you think that's what Stan Lee was going for?

I don't think Stan knew what he was going for. he was notoriously bad in his memory. ASm #24 could be the first example of a retcon and not an unacceptable one given how the omniscient narrator isn't iron clad in it's claims. It can be contradicted depending upon the situation.

Once we established Peter was 15-16 when he got his powers that discrepancy not only made more sense but lent greater scope to the character's journey. There were patently time skips present in the original issues such as in ASM #3 Spider-Man acted as though he'd been superheroing for awhile despite having had but a handful of adventures on page. More than a mere 8 months must have passed between ASM #3 and #11 since no way Otto could be released for good behaviour in such a short amount of time given his crimess.

[Spidercide]

That's mostly due to actors getting older. It wasn't the norm for American comics and cartoons in the early 1960s. In the entire Stan Lee run the only indication of the characters aging was the high school graduation issue. Everything prior to it was static, as was everything that came after. That's not gradual aging, that's an isolated status quo shift.

It wasn't the norm in 1960s comics but remember Marvel comics of the 1960s were specifcially trying to buck the trends of the majority.

the FF CLEARLy represented a passage of time as Ben's personality softened, his relationship with Alicia blossomed, Sue and Reed got engaged then married and Sue got pregnant.

Time was 100% passing even if it wasn't obvious.

[Lee]

I don't think Stan knew what he was going for. he was notoriously bad in his memory.

Then why are you framing it as though there was some kind of master plan?

If the idea was to show Peter getting older as the series went along then they did a really crappy job of it in the first 27 issues. No seasons, no holidays, no proms, no mid-terms, no finals, no birthdays, no new school years. Nothing. There was a stable status quo for 3 years, then they did the high school graduation to shake things up and moved Peter to another stable status quo for the rest of Stan's run.

Once we established Peter was 15-16 when he got his powers

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that first established in 1989's Parallel Lives?

that discrepancy not only made more sense but lent greater scope to the character's journey.

When you try to make sense of everything decades after the fact, sure. What I'm trying to explain is that that scope simply wasn't there in the comics as originally published.

There were patently time skips present in the original issues such as in ASM #3 Spider-Man acted as though he'd been superheroing for awhile despite having had but a handful of adventures on page. More than a mere 8 months must have passed between ASM #3 and #11 since no way Otto could be released for good behaviour in such a short amount of time given his crimess.

How long was Sideshow Bob in prison each time? How much older did Bart Simpson get?

And again, do you think that was the intent? That the characters were aging even faster than real publication time? There were 3 years publication time between Amazing Fantasy #15 and Amazing Spider-Man #28. How much time are you saying passed in the comics? 4 years? 5 years? How old was Peter when he graduated?

Why did Stan and co suddenly shift gears during the "Stone Tablet Saga" and spend 10 months telling a story that spanned just a few days?

[Spidercide]

Then why are you framing it as though there was some kind of master plan?

If the idea was to show Peter getting older as the series went along then they did a really crappy job of it in the first 27 issues. No seasons, no holidays, no proms, no mid-terms, no finals, no birthdays, no new school years. Nothing. There was a stable status quo for 3 years, then they did the high school graduation to shake things up and moved Peter to another stable status quo for the rest of Stan's run.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that first established in 1989's Parallel Lives?



When you try to make sense of everything decades after the fact, sure. What I'm trying to explain is that that scope simply wasn't there in the comics as originally published.



How long was Sideshow Bob in prison each time? How much older did Bart Simpson get?

And again, do you think that was the intent? That the characters were aging even faster than real publication time? There were 3 years publication time between Amazing Fantasy #15 and Amazing Spider-Man #28. How much time are you saying passed in the comics? 4 years? 5 years? How old was Peter when he graduated?

Why did Stan and co suddenly shift gears during the "Stone Tablet Saga" and spend 10 months telling a story that spanned just a few days?

I do not know i there was a master plan that Stan knew in 13 issues what he was doing to do. I know he definitely had a philosophy when approaching Spider-Man and all the Marvel characters that he did WANT them to progress and age as evidenced by him you know, saying that and actually DOING it.

Was he keeping track of the AMOUNT of time passing? Was he hard line codifying x number of issues = x number of months. No.

But was his intention that Peter Parker was growing and developing and would eventually age beyond high school? Yes absolutely.

At the same time the authorial intentions aren’t necessarily more important than what’s on the page. If Mysterio says years there is a solid argument beyond anything Stan or Steve intended that years have in fact passed.

Also they didn’t do a really crappy job of it in the first 27 issues because Peter DOES mature and grow as a person during the course of those issues. you just don’t necessarily denote the changing of the seasons, every Christmas or birthday or whatever.

But the point was time was still passing as evidenced by events building upon one another. If an event is building upon something that happened in the past then that event happens AFTER the thing in the past thereby proving that time has passed.

Furthermore there is a difference between ‘Peter is a high school student living with his mother’ and a stable status quo. The ups and downs with his relationship with Betty, Liz, Flash, his stresses as Spider-Man. These are not stability, these are stressful. Similarly under Stan’s penmanship the lay of the land int he college era shifted dramatically between when it started and when he left.

Peter moved out of Aunt May’s house. Aunt May began living with Doc Ock. He broke up with Betty, he dated MJ and Gwen, he fell in love with Gwen, Gwen’s Dad died, he and Flash became less confrontational, he and Harry became friends and roommates, Norman joined the cast, Robbie and Randy and Captain Stacy joined the cast, George died, Harry became an addict, etc.

And wen taken in totality like I’ve been saying repeatedly Peter Parker in AF #15 obviously grew and changed as a person during Stan’s run. He wasn’t the same person he was by the end of Stan’s last issue.


Parallel Lives is one of the earliest sources of Peter being 15 but I do not know if that’s THE first time it was ever stated to be that. ASM #400 claimed he was 16.

Maybe the scope of there being 4 years passing wasn’t necessarily intended in the first 28 issues. but a passage of time and a scope of development was. Remember, Stan always intended for Spidey to grow up and eventually get married.


The Simpsons is not a serialized dramatic work it is a sitcom/satire that’s never attempted to have much of a continuity at all beyond whatever it wants which is part and parcel of the humour of the series.

It is not a legitimate basis for comparison because Spider-Man exists for the sake of genuine drama/melodrama whereas the Simpsons exists primarily/purely for comedy and is not intended to be taken as seriously.

I think the intent was that vaguely speaking 4 weeks was passing between each given adventure but they were not thinking about it hardline. But they were thinking the character should grow and develop as a person which by necessity involves aging.

Peter was 18 years old when he graduated. Canonically he was 15/16 when he got his powers.

How much time passes between each issue is debatable though for the sake of argument and simlcity I usually just say every 7 issues represented 1 year vaguely speaking. But that’s just me.

They shifted gears in the Stone Tablet Saga because by then Stan et al realized comics ight last longer than expected and they wanted to milk it for all it’s worth so they were beginning to slow things down. Noticeably Gerry Conway adopted a different approach and 2 years publication time roughly = 2 years for the characters in-universe following Gwen Stacy’s death by the time Gwen’s clone debuted.

[Lee]

I do not know i there was a master plan that Stan knew in 13 issues what he was doing to do. I know he definitely had a philosophy when approaching Spider-Man and all the Marvel characters that he did WANT them to progress and age as evidenced by him you know, saying that and actually DOING it.

Was he keeping track of the AMOUNT of time passing? Was he hard line codifying x number of issues = x number of months. No.

Then why are you still insisting that the first 28 issues had "super fast aging and progress"?

The basic premise remained the same, except sometimes Aunt May would be sick or Peter's love live would be on the rocks.

At the same time the authorial intentions aren’t necessarily more important than what’s on the page. If Mysterio says years there is a solid argument beyond anything Stan or Steve intended that years have in fact passed.

And if a much earlier issue says that Peter is in his senior year, then there's a solid argument that Peter is in his senior year. The fact that these contradictions exist just cements the fact that they weren't thinking about the timeline of the series the way you are 50+ years after the fact.

Also they didn’t do a really crappy job of it in the first 27 issues because Peter DOES mature and grow as a person during the course of those issues. you just don’t necessarily denote the changing of the seasons, every Christmas or birthday or whatever.

But the point was time was still passing as evidenced by events building upon one another. If an event is building upon something that happened in the past then that event happens AFTER the thing in the past thereby proving that time has passed.

Stories happened and character relationships carried over from one story to the next. That doesn't change the fact that the actual time frame these stories all took place in was nebulous at best. It was the very definition of "the illusion of change".

They were making super-hero stories predominantly read by kids, not biographies or the Great American Novel.

Furthermore there is a difference between ‘Peter is a high school student living with his mother’ and a stable status quo. The ups and downs with his relationship with Betty, Liz, Flash, his stresses as Spider-Man. These are not stability, these are stressful. Similarly under Stan’s penmanship the lay of the land int he college era shifted dramatically between when it started and when he left.

Peter moved out of Aunt May’s house. Aunt May began living with Doc Ock. He broke up with Betty, he dated MJ and Gwen, he fell in love with Gwen, Gwen’s Dad died, he and Flash became less confrontational, he and Harry became friends and roommates, Norman joined the cast, Robbie and Randy and Captain Stacy joined the cast, George died, Harry became an addict, etc.

So how much time passed between #31 and #100?

Maybe the scope of there being 4 years passing wasn’t necessarily intended in the first 28 issues.

It definitely wasn't, unless Peter was 14 years old in Amazing Fantasy #15.

but a passage of time and a scope of development was.

If that was the case then they did a very poor job of it by not making that passage of time clear or at the forefront. In the entire Stan Lee run the one and only milestone was Peter graduating high school and starting college.

Is that a constant passage of time, or is it a one-off status quo shake-up?

Remember, Stan always intended for Spidey to grow up and eventually get married.

In 1962? Bollocks.

Peter was 18 years old when he graduated. Canonically he was 15/16 when he got his powers.

How much time passes between each issue is debatable though for the sake of argument and simlcity I usually just say every 7 issues represented 1 year vaguely speaking. But that’s just me.

How does he go from 15/16 in AF #15 to 18 in ASM #28 if 4 years have passed?

[Spidercide]

Then why are you still insisting that the first 28 issues had "super fast aging and progress"?

The basic premise remained the same, except sometimes Aunt May would be sick or Peter's love live would be on the rocks.



And if a much earlier issue says that Peter is in his senior year, then there's a solid argument that Peter is in his senior year. The fact that these contradictions exist just cements the fact that they weren't thinking about the timeline of the series the way you are 50+ years after the fact.



Stories happened and character relationships carried over from one story to the next. That doesn't change the fact that the actual time frame these stories all took place in was nebulous at best. It was the very definition of "the illusion of change".

They were making super-hero stories predominantly read by kids, not biographies or the Great American Novel.



So how much time passed between #31 and #100?




It definitely wasn't, unless Peter was 14 years old in Amazing Fantasy #15.



If that was the case then they did a very poor job of it by not making that passage of time clear or at the forefront. In the entire Stan Lee run the one and only milestone was Peter graduating high school and starting college.

Is that a constant passage of time, or is it a one-off status quo shake-up?



In 1962? Bollocks.



How does he go from 15/16 in AF #15 to 18 in ASM #28 if 4 years have passed?

Maybe I’m misremembereing something but in skim reading my earlier comments I do not see me ever saying anything to the effect of:


“"super fast aging and progress"



Dude the basic premise of Spider-Man remained the same from issue #1 and issue #675.


Peter Parker is someone trying to maintain a normal life whilst balancing his responsibilities as a superhero against his responsibilities in his civilian life.



The core premise of that never changed apart from exceptional circumstances like the Clone Saga or Civil War.


But if you are meaning that nothing at all changed and it was a Saturday morning cartoon of which you could read any given adventure in any given order and it wouldn’t matter because nothing from one epieose would impact the next and the characters wouldn’t change then you’d be ignorant.



For God’s sake look at the ups and downs in his love life alone, his own manner of approahching being a hero, his increase in confidence, etc.



These were by definition PROGRESSIONS. Not “Oop, look something is rocking the boat this time around. Ah don’t worry it’ll be fine later”



They weren’t thinking of the timeline in so far as Peter was 15 and every 7 issues = 1 year.

But were threy thinking of it in terms of character development, and progression and the idea that time was passing rather than the characters being stuck forever in a perennial never changing apart from a few things status quo?


Yes they absolutely were. Because Stan was defying DC’s structure, did this in other Marvel works, did it VERY early into Spider-Man’s existence and intended for it to go further i.e. for the character to grow to the point where he’d get married eventually.




I don’t think you know what the illusion of change means.


The illusion of change is when, here is the kicker, shit doesn’t change.


Except they did. And not even in a “Well this character is dating this person for awhile but now that’s over back to square one” kind of way either.


The Peter Parker of issue #1 is not the same person he is in issue #27.


By definition since change was happening the illsuon of change was NOT in play at all.


And yeah this would even apply to plot threads and subplots being carried over from issue to issue.


Shit the illusion of change creative model doesn’t even work when you have legitimate continuity and character development. Which again Spider-Man had and it was part of the overall philosophy of Marvel comics when they began the Marvel universe in 1961. Part of their mission statement was to NOT be like DC who were married to the illusion of change creative model.

Furthermore ‘for kids’ doesn’t mean a lack of character development or continuity. Anime basically destroys that argument and even here in the West TV shows like Gargoyles, Avengers: Earth’s Mightiest Heroes, Spectacular Spider-man and various other examples do as well.


This isn’t even to mention how you know…Marvle’s core audience in the 1960s WASN’T kids. It was teens and college sutdents.


I’d expect someone with even basic knowledge of Marvel’s history to know this stuff.




I will repeat. The specifici time frame stories were happening in (i.e. 1 issue = 1 month, 1 week, 1 day, etc) might not have been pinned down but the idea that time was passing, that issue #1 was a undeniable set of events in this character’s continuous life that was informing consequent stories and characterizations was undeniable. As was the idea that yea actually we were seeing the stories of the lives of these characters. How much of their lives (a few days, months, etc) might’ve been up in the air. But we WERE seeing time pass.


In the MCU it wasn’t really until Civil War that it was established that 8 years had passed since Tony became Iron Man. Up until then it was uncertain how much raw time had passed between various movies (maybe TV shows specified beyond this but I’m talking the films exclusively). Iron man could’ve been 8 years ago circa Civil War or it could’ve been just 4. There could’ve been a gap of 2 years between IM1 and IM2 or maybe just 1 or maybe even three. Even now that is still fuzzy.


But it doesn’t matter because the point is whether a few months or a year ago the point is that events in the MCU still HAPPENED in the past and still affected the characters, their development and their directions in life.


Time is 100% passing and that is affecting the characters we just do not know how much specifically but that is IRRELEVANT next to the fact that it is passing nevertheless.


Because if this was the illusion of change creative model in play that WOULDN’T be happening.


The illusion of change forbids actual character development by nature of what it is.



I do not know how much time specifically passed between issue #31 and #100. All I know is at LEAST 1 year passed between #31 and #121, probably more time in fact.


But again, that isn’t entirely relevant (though it puts the degree of Peter and gwen’s relationship into perspective).



We know retroactively Peter was 15 not 14 in AF #15. Again, though the intentions of those 28 issues happening across 4 years vs across several months isn’t really relevant.



You don’t NEED to make the AMOUNT of time that’s passed absolutely clear. It’s far less important than the mere fact that it is happening and affecting the characters.



Yeah the one and only milestone in Peter’s life in Stan’s run was him graduating.

And you know:


Getting super powers

His uncle dying

Deciding to become a hero

Becoming a photographer

Getting his first girlfriend

Literally every time he made an enemy of his classic rogue’s gallery

Flash starting to show signs of decency

Liz warming up to him

Developing a relationship with the Human Torch

Meeting Gwen and Harry

Becoming BFFs with Harry

Falling in love with Gwen

Going steady with Gwen

Meeting MJ

Harry’s overdose

Norman Osborn uncovering his identity

Moving out of Aunt May’s house

Captain Stacy’s death

Discovering his parents’ past

The debut of the Spider Slayers



You know LITTLE stuff like that




And to answer your question, that is a constant passge of time.


Like do you get the distinction here?



We are following his life. All those milestones in his life aren’t going to happen QUICKLY.


He starts off at the age he was, he gradually ages sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, and we see the course of his life take place.


Issues #1-28 were his time in high school. That was THAT stage of his life. A stage we all live through. Then he moved on to the next stage and went through OTHER common life experinces. He had his first break up, he moved out, he became more sociable, he fell in love for the first time.



These are all common life experiences we follow in the life story of Spider-Man. Were they happening at a set pace? No. Was there a hard plan of when anything was going to happen? No. but the point is the plan was for it to happen eventually. And THAT is the important part.


Did Stan intend that in 1962 when he made Spider-Man as a one time character in the last issue of a dying magazine hoping that ehy maybe it will lead somwwhere?



Probably not, no. not in 1962.


But in 1963? Fuck yeah he did .


Fuck yeah he intended that however or whenever it would happen Spider-Man wasn’t going to stay stagnate and an eternal high school student who’s personality, relationships and living situation would never change and would hardly reflect the realities of real people who’s lives develop and who are impacted by events in those lives.



In short no Stan more than likely never intended Spider-Man to be Superman, or at least Superman circa the Silver Age.


That is in fact the idea that is probably as you said: bollocks.



I mean jesus Christ, are you truly suggesting that unless he graduated high school, then graduated college and then got married and then had a kid and then grandkids and then died within like 20 years tops it’s ‘the illusion of change’ at work? That’s asinine.


You know what I concede my mathematics were off.



If he was 15 in AF#15 then it’d more like around every 9 issues or so.