What if Jean had Survived Morrison's Run Instead of Emma

[FUBAR007]

High school sweethearts are usually the opposite of "good couples" when they reach adulthood. During NXM, Scott and Jean were both aware the passion was just not there, and they were clinging onto each other in lieu of hanging on to their former wistful years of inexperience. If Jean had survived, Morrison was separating them for sure. Whedon would have maintained that status quo in Astonishing as he did not want Scott to be defined by his relationship to Jean.

Clearly, you've never read the original Phoenix storyline, the Dark Phoenix Saga, the first few years of X-Factor, nor the Lobdell/Nicieiza era, specifically The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix mini. Scott and Jean were far, far more than a usual example of high school sweethearts. They were soulmates with a love that saved the universe. Their relationship was a romantic ideal. It was never meant to be realistic or down-to-earth. Griping about its believability or lack thereof is absurd and colossally misses the point. That's like complaining that super-powers aren't realistic.

That said, the notion that passion is the purpose of marriage or even the appropriate measure of success for a long-term relationship is extremely shallow and juvenile. Passion does not equal love. Neither does sex. Neither does adventure or new age-y, pop psychology claptrap about "personal growth." Marriage is about commitment. Partnership. Devotion. Mutual acceptance. Responsibility. HONOR. "Personal growth" is the responsibility of oneself, not one's spouse.

Morrison didn't understand that. That's why he couldn't grasp Scott and Jean's relationship, and that's partly why he trashed it.

[Ulfhammer]

It also means Cyclops remains the field leader. That's a role he's still good at and with Jean as the headmaster, I think he's more effective. I think that helps the X-men in the major events that follow.

Totally agree. Jean also seemed to get a level of consideration for her point of view that Scott didn't, at least post Morrison. Is this the best Jean\Scott responsiblity pairing? I think so. Maybe this is where Tyke\Jeen will be headed one day.

In the end, I think Jean's presence is just that important. She's a stabilizing force that can unite the X-men in Xavier's absence. And perhaps that's why Marvel killed her off and kept her dead. They knew the X-men would be more chaotic without her and they wanted some chaos in the stories. It's hard to say what sort of impact she would have if she returned, but there's no question that she has a huge influence on the team as a whole. And that influence continues, even in death.

This really makes me wonder. Was this truly recognized by Marvel and planned as such? If so I can't agree with the direction Marvel chose but it's quite an insight. It's also easy to see in this light how Emma could never have filled the same role or provided that stability.

That said, the notion that passion is the purpose of marriage or even the appropriate measure of success for a long-term relationship is extremely shallow and juvenile. Passion does not equal love. Neither does sex. Neither does adventure or new age-y, pop psychology claptrap about "personal growth." Marriage is about commitment. Partnership. Devotion. Mutual acceptance. Responsibility. HONOR. "Personal growth" is the responsibility of oneself, not one's spouse.

Morrison didn't understand that. That's why he couldn't grasp Scott and Jean's relationship, and that's partly why he trashed it.

I agree your correct in the real world. In panel though Jean wanting Scott to be more decisive and passionate in their relationship is an ongoing theme. I've recently re-read x-factor and this comes up multiple times. Jean at one point just tells Scott straight out she needs him to be more spontaneous and take charge of their romantic relationship. This is revisited as a theme during Logan's conversation with Scott in the Hellfire club after Jean out's his affair with Emma.

It wasn't a major problem for their marriage, communication was, but it did play a part in attracting Jean to Logan. I must admit I'm still a little lost on why Scott had a problem showing the darker side of himself to Jean. I recall her telling him at one point that she knew all the things he wanted to do to her and there were only two things she wouldn't do. The rest was "fair game". I don't recall the issue but I do have a clear memory of this.

[Sin Nick]

Jean would've left Cyclops the moment he kicked out Xavier... then she'd hook up with Charles to make telepathic super babies...

[ariwl1]

As Endsong pointed out Jean was always going to revive Emma if she had the power to. Jean hated Emma, but is nowhere near petty enough to leave her to death because of it.

Directly after Morrison's run I believe the Phoenix would have departed Jean. Her power levels were approaching unfair thresholds and as much as I love a scene where Jean Grey thrashes a deserving opponent, it's not good writing to have her around as the ultimate trump card free of charge. Plus I think the Phoenix works better when it's around only when it intends to be.

After that, because Marvel editorial is god, I think all the big events still would have happened. Definitely M-Day, most likely Schism, and maybe even AvX.

The difference is that Jean would have done everything she could to keep the X-Men and the school together. I don't think she would have completely succeeded, i.e. Schism, but I think the X-Men would have felt more whole and I think the Avengers and other super heroes of Earth would have noticed.

As far as Scott and Jean's relationship goes, I think it would have ended regardless of whether or not Emma was in the picture still after Morrison's run. How it ends I think would depend on Emma's presence:

1.) If Emma was still alive after Morrison, I think Scott and Jean would have been over pretty quick, thus requiring the two of them to professionally navigate all the madness of X-world and their turbulent feelings over each other at the same time (which is pretty par for the course considering their long history).

2.) If Emma had died I think Scott and Jean would have tried to work things out and stumbled along for years after that, only to have the real true break-up occur during, or maybe a result of, Schism.

Man, what a story that would have been.

[MarvelMaster616]

Totally agree. Jean also seemed to get a level of consideration for her point of view that Scott didn't, at least post Morrison. Is this the best Jean\Scott responsiblity pairing? I think so. Maybe this is where Tyke\Jeen will be headed one day.

I think it is. Jean has her strengths and Cyclops has his. That's always been the case, going all the way back to the Lee/Kirby era. Jean was never one to put herself on the front lines like Cyclops did. She's more of a diplomat and he's more of a soldier. I remember an issue of Uncanny X-men during Matt Fraction's run where Wolverine even pointed that out to Cyclops. He knew how to fight a war. He didn't know much about navigating peace. That's something Jean was better at doing from the get-go. If she were alive after Morrison's run, then there's no doubt she would be the one negotiating with SHIELD, the Avengers, and whoever else the X-men encountered. That's not to say the outcomes would've been that different, but it would've played to Jean's strengths.

I certainly hope this is the direction they're going in X-men Blue. I think their younger selves do embody the same strengths. We've seen that manifest in more ways lately and I can see that being the template for their roles in the future.

This really makes me wonder. Was this truly recognized by Marvel and planned as such? If so I can't agree with the direction Marvel chose but it's quite an insight. It's also easy to see in this light how Emma could never have filled the same role or provided that stability.

It is kind of telling. I don't think we'll ever know for sure, but I think if it was a reason, it was secondary at most. I think the editors at the time knew that there would be more instability and chaos due to Jean's death. That opened the door to different stories that were less predictable. I think they had to know that on some level. Even if it wasn't the primary reason, it was certainly a major justification when all was said and done.

I agree your correct in the real world. In panel though Jean wanting Scott to be more decisive and passionate in their relationship is an ongoing theme. I've recently re-read x-factor and this comes up multiple times. Jean at one point just tells Scott straight out she needs him to be more spontaneous and take charge of their romantic relationship. This is revisited as a theme during Logan's conversation with Scott in the Hellfire club after Jean out's his affair with Emma.

It wasn't a major problem for their marriage, communication was, but it did play a part in attracting Jean to Logan. I must admit I'm still a little lost on why Scott had a problem showing the darker side of himself to Jean. I recall her telling him at one point that she knew all the things he wanted to do to her and there were only two things she wouldn't do. The rest was "fair game". I don't recall the issue but I do have a clear memory of this.

That has always been a quirk of their relationship. Cyclops is reserved while Jean is more outgoing. It's actually a pretty important dynamic because they really complement each other in that respect. They balance each other out. That's what good couples do. There's going to be tension every now and then, but that's true in every relationship, fictional or otherwise. How many times did we see Reed and Sue disagree? How many times did Peter and Mary Jane disagree? It happens all the time. It certainly happened while Jean was alive. But in the long run, they always found a way to work through it. That's what makes their relationship so iconic.

That's also why I don't think Cyclops would've broken up with Jean and gone to Emma if she'd lived. Cyclops only got with Emma because Jean pushed it so he would live on. If Jean were alive, he wouldn't have gone towards her for the same reason Jean never went to Logan. They were driven by misplaced passions that never went beyond basic attraction. That might make for a fling, but it won't make for a lasting, functional relationship. It happened with Sue and Namor. It happened with Peter Parker and Felicia Hardy. Just because it happens doesn't mean a relationship ends. If anything, it's one of those inevitable obstacles in any relationship. Good relationships find a way to work through it. Given how many other issues Cyclops and Jean Grey worked through, I think they would've worked through the Emma situation if Jean had lived.

[ariwl1]

I think it is. Jean has her strengths and Cyclops has his. That's always been the case, going all the way back to the Lee/Kirby era. Jean was never one to put herself on the front lines like Cyclops did. She's more of a diplomat and he's more of a soldier. I remember an issue of Uncanny X-men during Matt Fraction's run where Wolverine even pointed that out to Cyclops. He knew how to fight a war. He didn't know much about navigating peace. That's something Jean was better at doing from the get-go. If she were alive after Morrison's run, then there's no doubt she would be the one negotiating with SHIELD, the Avengers, and whoever else the X-men encountered. That's not to say the outcomes would've been that different, but it would've played to Jean's strengths.

I certainly hope this is the direction they're going in X-men Blue. I think their younger selves do embody the same strengths. We've seen that manifest in more ways lately and I can see that being the template for their roles in the future.

Seeing young Scott and Jean navigate the leader switch up is going to be interesting. You can see in X-Men Blue #1 that neither of them is used to it yet. What I like is that it's not in a tense/rival/bad-blood kinda way, but in an unsure awkward one. For Jean this is all new territory and she's still learning how to lead a team. For Scott he's so used to being the leader that now that he isn't he's not sure what to do with himself. When he does leader-like things in #1 he's not intentionally stepping on Jean's toes; it's just so habitually ingrained in him to be the leader he does it automatically. Having Scott feel out his new role and see what he develops into without leadership pressure is one of the things I'm looking forward to most about the title.

[Ulfhammer]

I think it is. Jean has her strengths and Cyclops has his. That's always been the case, going all the way back to the Lee/Kirby era. Jean was never one to put herself on the front lines like Cyclops did. She's more of a diplomat and he's more of a soldier. I remember an issue of Uncanny X-men during Matt Fraction's run where Wolverine even pointed that out to Cyclops. He knew how to fight a war. He didn't know much about navigating peace. That's something Jean was better at doing from the get-go. If she were alive after Morrison's run, then there's no doubt she would be the one negotiating with SHIELD, the Avengers, and whoever else the X-men encountered. That's not to say the outcomes would've been that different, but it would've played to Jean's strengths.

I certainly hope this is the direction they're going in X-men Blue. I think their younger selves do embody the same strengths. We've seen that manifest in more ways lately and I can see that being the template for their roles in the future.

I appreciate your comments here MM and I'm in violent agreement. Given the diplomat versus field leader roles will take some time to develop I'm willing to give Bunn (and future writers) a chance to get there. For the time being I'm sure Marvel will continue to reinforce Jeen as the sole leader in all areas. Once that status quo has been established though I do hope they let these to move into roles that play to their strengths.

Seeing young Scott and Jean navigate the leader switch up is going to be interesting. You can see in X-Men Blue #1 that neither of them is used to it yet. What I like is that it's not in a tense/rival/bad-blood kinda way, but in an unsure awkward one. For Jean this is all new territory and she's still learning how to lead a team. For Scott he's so used to being the leader that now that he isn't he's not sure what to do with himself. When he does leader-like things in #1 he's not intentionally stepping on Jean's toes; it's just so habitually ingrained in him to be the leader he does it automatically. Having Scott feel out his new role and see what he develops into without leadership pressure is one of the things I'm looking forward to most about the title.

As in my comments above I do feel Tyke will end up in a leadership role down the road and Jeen will become more of a spiritual\overall leader (ie. Xavier). Until then I'm sure there will be some awkward situations. I just can't see how they can perpetually characterize Tyke as someone who is unwilling to take charge. I'm looking forward to seeing how Jeen and Tyke handle real conflict around the direction of the team in the future. It's something that really didn't come up very often with their older versions (notwithstanding relationship conflict which is a different animal). Hopefully they will find a healthy way to deal with their differences.

[blanchett]

In my opinion it's far more interesting to think about what would have happened had Scott died and Emma and Jean both lived.

I think Jean definately would have been pulled in for the treatment of the Scarlet Witch and personally I think she would have mercy killed her before Wanda was responsible for a major disaster like M-Day. I don't think anyone else could really understood the magnitude of Wanda's power, Jean would because of the Phoenix and what happened to the D'Bari and I think Jean would have given her peace so she had no more blood on her hands. Whether Jean would survive or not killing Wanda I don't know.

I actually think she and Emma up to that point would have been running the school together. I am unsure if Jean's survival would have ensured her families survival, would the Shi'ar have attempted to brand her etc.

I don't think we would have had an M-Day though.

Had Emma died and Jean lived, without Emma the X-Books would have been a far less funny place. Whether you like her or not Emma has all the best lines.

[Ulfhammer]

In my opinion it's far more interesting to think about what would have happened had Scott died and Emma and Jean both lived.

I think Jean definately would have been pulled in for the treatment of the Scarlet Witch and personally I think she would have mercy killed her before Wanda was responsible for a major disaster like M-Day. I don't think anyone else could really understood the magnitude of Wanda's power, Jean would because of the Phoenix and what happened to the D'Bari and I think Jean would have given her peace so she had no more blood on her hands. Whether Jean would survive or not killing Wanda I don't know.

I actually think she and Emma up to that point would have been running the school together. I am unsure if Jean's survival would have ensured her families survival, would the Shi'ar have attempted to brand her etc.

I don't think we would have had an M-Day though.

Had Emma died and Jean lived, without Emma the X-Books would have been a far less funny place. Whether you like her or not Emma has all the best lines.

Thanks for your comments. I suppose this option didn't come up naturally as both Jean and Emma were dead at one point or another during the last 10 issues of Morrison's run, where as Scott came through unscathed. It's a neat twist to the idea though.

I don't see Jean and Emma being able to co-exist at that time. They're at eachothers throats for an entire issue. I don't see Scott dying as something that would bring them together but anythings possible.

As for M Day I doubt that would have been altered much by Jean's presence. It was an mandated reduction to the number of mutants in the MU. I see stories like Schism & AvX never seeing the light of day if Jean's still drawing breath but I don't agree on M Day.

[spirit2011]

Thanks for your comments. I suppose this option didn't come up naturally as both Jean and Emma were dead at one point or another during the last 10 issues of Morrison's run, where as Scott came through unscathed. It's a neat twist to the idea though.

I don't see Jean and Emma being able to co-exist at that time. They're at eachothers throats for an entire issue. I don't see Scott dying as something that would bring them together but anythings possible.

As for M Day I doubt that would have been altered much by Jean's presence. It was an mandated reduction to the number of mutants in the MU. I see stories like Schism & AvX never seeing the light of day if Jean's still drawing breath but I don't agree on M Day.

Emma hates jean to the guts, I really don't see she working with Jean. Unless is a big emergency and I doubt they would agree on anything.

Clearly, you've never read the original Phoenix storyline, the Dark Phoenix Saga, the first few years of X-Factor, nor the Lobdell/Nicieiza era, specifically The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix mini. Scott and Jean were far, far more than a usual example of high school sweethearts. They were soulmates with a love that saved the universe. Their relationship was a romantic ideal. It was never meant to be realistic or down-to-earth. Griping about its believability or lack thereof is absurd and colossally misses the point. That's like complaining that super-powers aren't realistic.

That said, the notion that passion is the purpose of marriage or even the appropriate measure of success for a long-term relationship is extremely shallow and juvenile. Passion does not equal love. Neither does sex. Neither does adventure or new age-y, pop psychology claptrap about "personal growth." Marriage is about commitment. Partnership. Devotion. Mutual acceptance. Responsibility. HONOR. "Personal growth" is the responsibility of oneself, not one's spouse.

Morrison didn't understand that. That's why he couldn't grasp Scott and Jean's relationship, and that's partly why he trashed it.

It was a big shot on Jean's head when they made Cyclops all alpha male and confident when he was dating Emma. If jean was a abusive GF I could unerstand the "GF makes you better", but she was one of the best partners one person could get.
It was misunderstood by fans, writers and editors, then Jean stayed death because of this.

It would be crazy if cyclops anyway fell out with jean over ideological differences. Maybe all he wanted was get wild and a relationship is never the same specially after a major betrayal like what scott did. He was even thinking that Emma is what he needed.

[Wiccan]

This thread honestly makes me quite sad. I was gonna to give my 2 cents now but I guess I'll have to do it later...

[Badou]

Jean and Scott would probably have broken up and she would have gotten together with Wolverine at least for a while. Their marriage wasn't in great shape even before the incident with Emma, and Marvel wasn't big on marriages at that time too. I'm sure the movies at the time which were very Jean/Wolverine heavy would have influenced them to make Jean and Logan official in the comics.

As for the big stories and events it is tough to say. Most of the ones that lead up to Schism probably still happened basically the same way. The main beats of them at least. Cyclops importance would obviously take a hit as Jean probably eats up some of his story roles. Instead of having Wolverine and Cyclops be the two big figures after Xavier's fall they would have put Jean in the middle of them. Two main figures becomes three. So the tension between Cyclops and Wolverine would have probably been there from a lot earlier on and I think there is still a Schism between them with Jean being forced to take a side.

Hope obviously doesn't exists and Jean then eats up her role with her trying to find a way to reboot the mutants. So maybe it is Bishop trying to kill her with Cable trying to save her. Or maybe they would have killed off Cyclops sooner and the Schism would have been between Wolverine and Jean. Since Cyclops would not be as big or important a figure Marvel wouldn't need to keep him around. So after Xavier's disgrace Jean, Wolverine and Scott take over, but something happens that leads to Scott's death and that causes Jean and Wolverine to break up and starts a schism between them.

So instead of the Jean Grey School it becomes the Scott Summers School. I suppose in this case Jean probably falls into the role of Cyclops with Wolverine probably staying the same. I don't think Marvel would have thrown Wolverine under the bus, especially as he was an Avenger at the time, so Jean would become the antagonist to him like how Cyclops was. There is no doubt that AvX still happens as that was an event to help promote the Avengers by taking an ongoing X-Men story and making it an Avengers one and turning them into an opponent for the Avengers.

So instead of Cyclops Jean takes the Phoenix and probably goes Dark Phoenix again and kills Xavier forcing Wolverine to fight her and maybe to come full circle kills her. Which would make him extremely depressed and would lead into a Death of Wolverine story. So all 3 of them wide up dead eventually but it just happened in a different order, lol. Then after AvX Bendis still takes over the X-Men and has Beast (for a different reason) bring the O5 to the present anyway. Bendis doesn't like continuity and the O5 were blank slates to him, so he probably just liked the idea of writing teen characters separated from so much continuity.

[Harpsikord]

High school sweethearts are usually the opposite of "good couples" when they reach adulthood. During NXM, Scott and Jean were both aware the passion was just not there, and they were clinging onto each other in lieu of hanging on to their former wistful years of inexperience. If Jean had survived, Morrison was separating them for sure. Whedon would have maintained that status quo in Astonishing as he did not want Scott to be defined by his relationship to Jean.

Someone has already mentioned that Jean and Scott were much, much more than highschool sweethearts but I also want to bring up the fact that Scott wanted to fix things with Jean, and Jean wanted to fix things with Scott. Their whole issue was the fact that there didn't seem to be enough communication between the two of them, and that was all on Scott after everything that happened with Apocalypse. Whenever Jean tried to talk, Scott blew her off - Jean wasn't innocent in this regard but still.

Wow, you've put a lot of thought into this. I generally agree with most of your points. I do wonder though if Whedon wouldn't have "fixed" Scott and Jean's relationship to the point where they would be more unified. All that really had to happen was for Scott to have the conversation he had with Logan (during the start of the Assault on Weapon Plus arc) with Jean.

Either way I could see Jean essentially taking over for Xavier and the last 12 years of continuity especially be completely different. I just don't see Marvel trying to paint Jean with the same brush they used on Scott which would have avoided a lot of nonesense.

I've been reading comics ever since I was fourteen - I'm 21 now - and I've been a fan of Jean Grey for that same amount of time. New X-Men was one of the first comics that I've read and I've just dived further and deeper into the lore ever since then. I have had a lot of time to think about this stuff. That said, I wrote this scenario without taking specific writers into account, or editorial, because I feel as though Whedon - even if he WANTED to - would not have been able to reconcile Jean and Scott. This was during Quesada's issue with marriages, after all.

This is a really nice premise! I'd loved to have seen something like it play out.

I would absolutely LOVE that scenario. Bring adult Jean back!

Thanks!

As Endsong pointed out Jean was always going to revive Emma if she had the power to. Jean hated Emma, but is nowhere near petty enough to leave her to death because of it.

Directly after Morrison's run I believe the Phoenix would have departed Jean. Her power levels were approaching unfair thresholds and as much as I love a scene where Jean Grey thrashes a deserving opponent, it's not good writing to have her around as the ultimate trump card free of charge. Plus I think the Phoenix works better when it's around only when it intends to be.

This is something I didn't cover when I did my whole thing - The Phoenix wouldn't leave Jean, but it wouldn't be with her, like... constantly? The way that I envision the relationship of the Phoenix and the host as something that's an ongoing thing isn't one where the Phoenix is ever present. Instead, it would be something like the Avatar state featured in Avatar: The Last Airbender and the Legend of Korra; the Phoenix makes appearances where it deems necessary during moments where things seem to be going for the worst and it becomes clear that there is Phoenix work to be done. The host, in this case Jean Grey, could consult with the Phoenix and past - deceased - hosts, as well as have a mental link to the White Hot Room inside the M'Kraan Crystal. Things like Hope being born (AS a mutant) and the Phoenix helping to reignite mutantkind as a whole would happen through this "Phoenix State." Outside of it, the host returns to normal.

[v_jeovanne]

Jean and Scott would probably have broken up and she would have gotten together with Wolverine at least for a while. Their marriage wasn't in great shape even before the incident with Emma, and Marvel wasn't big on marriages at that time too. I'm sure the movies at the time which were very Jean/Wolverine heavy would have influenced them to make Jean and Logan official in the comics.

As for the big stories and events it is tough to say. Most of the ones that lead up to Schism probably still happened basically the same way. The main beats of them at least. Cyclops importance would obviously take a hit as Jean probably eats up some of his story roles. Instead of having Wolverine and Cyclops be the two big figures after Xavier's fall they would have put Jean in the middle of them. Two main figures becomes three. So the tension between Cyclops and Wolverine would have probably been there from a lot earlier on and I think there is still a Schism between them with Jean being forced to take a side.

Hope obviously doesn't exists and Jean then eats up her role with her trying to find a way to reboot the mutants. So maybe it is Bishop trying to kill her with Cable trying to save her. Or maybe they would have killed off Cyclops sooner and the Schism would have been between Wolverine and Jean. Since Cyclops would not be as big or important a figure Marvel wouldn't need to keep him around. So after Xavier's disgrace Jean, Wolverine and Scott take over, but something happens that leads to Scott's death and that causes Jean and Wolverine to break up and starts a schism between them.

So instead of the Jean Grey School it becomes the Scott Summers School. I suppose in this case Jean probably falls into the role of Cyclops with Wolverine probably staying the same. I don't think Marvel would have thrown Wolverine under the bus, especially as he was an Avenger at the time, so Jean would become the antagonist to him like how Cyclops was. There is no doubt that AvX still happens as that was an event to help promote the Avengers by taking an ongoing X-Men story and making it an Avengers one and turning them into an opponent for the Avengers.

So instead of Cyclops Jean takes the Phoenix and probably goes Dark Phoenix again and kills Xavier forcing Wolverine to fight her and maybe to come full circle kills her. Which would make him extremely depressed and would lead into a Death of Wolverine story. So all 3 of them wide up dead eventually but it just happened in a different order, lol. Then after AvX Bendis still takes over the X-Men and has Beast (for a different reason) bring the O5 to the present anyway. Bendis doesn't like continuity and the O5 were blank slates to him, so he probably just liked the idea of writing teen characters separated from so much continuity.

I'm sure that the problems in their relationship are exclusive to Morrison, before they never showed problems, in addition in the other titles X was still shown as a couple.

[SpiderClops]

This thread honestly makes me quite sad. I was gonna to give my 2 cents now but I guess I'll have to do it later...

Now I'm really interested in what made you sad and what your 2 cents were going to be.