Trinity #8 Discussion

[Truman Burbank]

That's fascinating. I wasn't into the constant bombardment of "bad thing happens to Clark" crossovers expressly because they seemed more interested in shocking you based on your prior knowledge of Superman as an icon. The new 52 in fact relied heavily on the reader having some preconceived notions of the icon so they could subvert it. I'd argue that outside of some standout writers the man was very much put to the side. When they marketed the character they were very much interested in telling how he was different from the icon that you know. So, I just think it's a fascinating argument to make in favor of the New 52's approach.

No better example of that than Truth.

[Buried Alien]

So, roll-call of the alternate Supermen, Batmen and Wonder Women...?

I identified these so far.


New Earth 2 Superman
Original Siegal/Shuster Superman
New 52 Superman (with T-shirt and jeans)
Pre-Flashpoint Superman (?) [not sure which one specifically, but there were two who had a modern look, but with trunks]

Bronze Age 'Diana Prince'
New 52 Wonder Woman
Pre-COIE Wonder Woman
Odyssey Wonder Woman

666 Batman/Damien Wayne
New 52 Batman
Pre-Flashpoint 'Year One' Batman [at least two of them wearing some version of that suit]
'New Look' Batman [at least two of them wearing the yellow oval]

Aside from the few obvious ones, a number of the Supermen and Batmen were drawn/colored so similarly that it was hard to tell exactly who was whom.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[DragonPiece]

There's no backtracking necessary when you utilize your multiverse. I'm not suggesting the possibility of anything changing in the main canon line, neither am I suggesting that the verbatim New 52 Superman and Superdad were not indeed two halves of a whole in theory. I'm suggesting the potential meta in the idea that maybe something like him in spirit, could exist elsewhere when all is said and done.

To me its telling that its the New 52 version who's worried about no longer existing. Not the Superdad version. In a symbolic fight to prevent their merger, one would think BOTH versions would be scared of the idea of not existing independently. To me this is meta that the merger is really, in practice, more of an absorption, like we've always known it really is. Again its really more just in theory that its a merger. He's not REALLY living on as part of a whole and he knows it deep down and that's why he's so aggressively attacking. So Wonder Woman's words of comfort is what leads me to thinking of the above possibility. Again, in the sense that, hey, you're going away here but something like you may end up existing elsewhere.

I get what you are hoping for, but I don't see a way this would work. Are you saying you hope there is some sort of alternate universe with a new 52 superman? I just don't know how much people would be interested, he was already starting to become like the superman we know during final days, with the only differences being his parents death and his love for Diana.

[GSman]

There's no backtracking necessary when you utilize your multiverse. I'm not suggesting the possibility of anything changing in the main canon line, neither am I suggesting that the verbatim New 52 Superman and Superdad were not indeed two halves of a whole in theory. I'm suggesting the potential meta in the idea that maybe something like him in spirit, could exist elsewhere when all is said and done.

To me its telling that its the New 52 version who's worried about no longer existing. Not the Superdad version. In a symbolic fight to prevent their merger, one would think BOTH versions would be scared of the idea of not existing independently. To me this is meta that the merger is really, in practice, more of an absorption, like we've always known it really is. Again its really more just in theory that its a merger. He's not REALLY living on as part of a whole and he knows it deep down and that's why he's so aggressively attacking. So Wonder Woman's words of comfort is what leads me to thinking of the above possibility. Again, in the sense that, hey, you're going away here but something like you may end up existing elsewhere.

Someone like New 52 Superman living on in spirit, in another universe? I like the idea who knows maybe they could do something like that but I wouldn't bet on it.

And yeah the way you explain the merger is pretty spot on sadly. It was really more absorbing than merging, which is disappointing. Especially when they say everything New 52 Superman ever did was "fading" so none of his stories really mean anything, it's basically retconning New 52 Supes.

[Truman Burbank]

So, roll-call of the alternate Supermen, Batmen and Wonder Women...?

I identified these so far.


New Earth 2 Superman
Original Siegal/Shuster Superman
New 52 Superman (with T-shirt and jeans)
Pre-Flashpoint Superman (?) [not sure which one specifically, but there were two who had a modern look, but with trunks]

Bronze Age 'Diana Prince'
New 52 Wonder Woman
Pre-COIE Wonder Woman
Odyssey Wonder Woman

666 Batman/Damien Wayne
New 52 Batman
Pre-Flashpoint 'Year One' Batman [at least two of them wearing some version of that suit]
'New Look' Batman [at least two of them wearing the yellow oval]

I imagine one of the lookalikes is supposed to be Pre-Crisis Superman and one is supposed to be Post-Crisis. The one that's throwing me is the one in the largely traditional suit with the slash-styled S (on the left-hand side of the spread).

[Sacred Knight]

I get what you are hoping for, but I don't see a way this would work. Are you saying you hope there is some sort of alternate universe with a new 52 superman? I just don't know how much people would be interested, he was already starting to become like the superman we know during final days, with the only differences being his parents death and his love for Diana.

Just an alternate Earth with a young Superman largely based off the New 52 one, yeah. And I think people would be interested, if you craft it as a companion Earth to the main one much in the same vein that Earth One and Two existed pre-Crisis. The door would be open to do a lot of different things that a certain section of the readership would be interested in, I think. But, the very idea it could actually happen could very much just be a pipe-dream, I realize that. But there I still see some interesting subtext in this issue regardless.

[Jokerz79]

There's no backtracking necessary when you utilize your multiverse. I'm not suggesting the possibility of anything changing in the main canon line, neither am I suggesting that the verbatim New 52 Superman and Superdad were not indeed two halves of a whole in theory. I'm suggesting the potential meta in the idea that maybe something like him in spirit, could exist elsewhere when all is said and done.

To me its telling that its the New 52 version who's worried about no longer existing. Not the Superdad version. In a symbolic fight to prevent their merger, one would think BOTH versions would be scared of the idea of not existing independently. To me this is meta that the merger is really, in practice, more of an absorption, like we've always known it really is. Again its really more just in theory that its a merger. He's not REALLY living on as part of a whole and he knows it deep down and that's why he's so aggressively attacking. So Wonder Woman's words of comfort is what leads me to thinking of the above possibility. Again, in the sense that, hey, you're going away here but something like you may end up existing elsewhere.

I don't see why they can't do your idea technically Post-Crisis Superman and Silver Age/Bronze Age Superman was the same man given the Silver/Bronze Ages Superman was still Superman at the end of Crisis of the Infinite Earths when the Mutliverse was still rearranging into a new single universe thus they were the same just his history was rewritten. Like now with Post-Crisis "Superdad" and New 52 Superman merging into one Superman with a rewritten history. But even with that DC did Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow to give Pre-Crisis Silver/Bronze Ages Superman closure and he even made a cameo in the Superman/Batman series and with Hypertime and later the recreation of the Multiverse who's to say he's not out there is some universe as Jordan Elliot with his Lois and son. So maybe someday New 52 Superman or a identical version who DC can say wink wink it's him is out there in the Multiverse in a New 52 version of a parallel universe.

[Sacred Knight]

On a characterization front I was pleased with Superman and Wonder Woman's. I don't care at this point if the past relationship is just disregarded, as I've said many times, so it not coming up didn't bother me. But what I liked is how worried and caring Diana was shown to be toward Superman, and how she seems to understand immediately where he's coming from and is generally on the same page as opposed to Batman he's always a little more on the edge. That's the type of pre-Sacrifice friendship that I at the very least wanted to see return. I was glad to see it here.

[SuperCrab]

I've given up hope on an alternate universe New52 Superman monthly being created.

Certainly, they could technically do one without changing anything about the outcome in the main DC Universe. The way alternate universes work is that there are infinite possibilities created by forking decision trees. There's a universe where I go to my fridge for a second beer right now, and there's one where I don't. So, there could be a universe where the New52 is just the way things always were and always will be, or a universe where New52 Superman lived and where everything just stayed in place instead of the Rebirth events occurring- and both could just continue from the last New52 issues of Superman. It technically wouldn't be the same New52 Superman, it'd be a universe that branched off when New52 Superman didn't die or something- the main universe's Reborn Superman would still have the "real" New52 Superman as part of him. But it'd be indistinguishable to the reader.

If they did a series like that, I'd auto-subscribe. I'd be it's #1 fan. I'd love for it to happen.

However, I just don't see it as something DC Comics is going to do. Rebirth has drained me of all hope and optimism in that regard (Ironic, given the supposed theme of Rebirth).

If they were going to do something like that, I think they'd already have done it. We might see occasional cameos in issues of titles with parallel universes, the way we just saw various old Supermen analogues from alternate universes in Reborn Superman's dream. We might see Reborn Superman remember something that originally happened to New52 Superman (Just revised to feature the Reborn costume and such), since New52 Superman is theoretically part of the current Superman via merger. But if they were going to spin off an alternate universe New52 Superman monthly, he'd either not have died, or when he came back to life in Reborn, he'd not have merged, it'd turn out to be a alternate universe version, or the original New52 Superman who'd realize he was from an alternate universe and go back. The merger is I think the editors and writers saying "This is the final word on that story. This is the bone we're tossing you, New52 Superman fans. Final offer.". It's less than ideal, but there's nothing I can do about it.

[FishyZombie]

I've given up hope on an alternate universe New52 Superman monthly being created.

Certainly, they could technically do one without changing anything about the outcome in the main DC Universe. The way alternate universes work is that there are infinite possibilities created by forking decision trees. There's a universe where I go to my fridge for a second beer right now, and there's one where I don't. So, there could be a universe where the New52 is just the way things always were and always will be, or a universe where New52 Superman lived and where everything just stayed in place instead of the Rebirth events occurring- and both could just continue from the last New52 issues of Superman. It technically wouldn't be the same New52 Superman, it'd be a universe that branched off when New52 Superman didn't die or something- the main universe's Reborn Superman would still have the "real" New52 Superman as part of him. But it'd be indistinguishable to the reader.

If they did a series like that, I'd auto-subscribe. I'd be it's #1 fan. I'd love for it to happen.

However, I just don't see it as something DC Comics is going to do. Rebirth has drained me of all hope and optimism in that regard (Ironic, given the supposed theme of Rebirth).

If they were going to do something like that, I think they'd already have done it. We might see occasional cameos in issues of titles with parallel universes, the way we just saw various old Supermen analogues from alternate universes in Reborn Superman's dream. We might see Reborn Superman remember something that originally happened to New52 Superman (Just revised to feature the Reborn costume and such), since New52 Superman is theoretically part of the current Superman via merger. But if they were going to spin off an alternate universe New52 Superman monthly, he'd either not have died, or when he came back to life in Reborn, he'd not have merged, it'd turn out to be a alternate universe version, or the original New52 Superman who'd realize he was from an alternate universe and go back. The merger is I think the editors and writers saying "This is the final word on that story. This is the bone we're tossing you, New52 Superman fans. Final offer.".

I can see them making a N52 Supes mini-series somewhere down the line.

[superduperman]

My takeaway from this is twofold:

1) The infinite multiverse is back! Which is probably even bigger news than the main story!

2) For the first time they are allowing Superman to know he's been rebooted multiple times and he's not liking it. Far as I know, they've never done that before.

I think there were elements that DC would tease fans with but never openly acknowledge. Such as the infinite multiverse making a comeback or acknowledging Superman knows, or at least suspects, he's had previous lives. They've always walked a fine line by just keeping certain things under the surface. I think the pre-Crisis Superman is a sore spot for DC. They really do seem to go out of their way to never formally acknowledge he ever existed. And I can understand why. The changes after COIE were controversial and they don't want to get anyone's hopes up. New 52 may be the same way. That having been said, I really do think Diana's words mean that there is a universe out there where New 52 still exists. Though, yes, there was a lot of New 52 bashing.

My real hope to come out of Rebirth, though I am not getting it up, is that when all is said and done, he knows his TRUE history. That he remembers everything. Pre-Crisis, post-Crisis, Birthright, New 52, you name it. It seems grossly unfair to keep all this from him and I hope this is what they are building to. Maybe even some versions we've never seen before.

[poroto678]

The Trinity hiding things from the League? That will end well.

I think that was awesome. Yeah, it means trouble, but I like trouble.

Art was great and story was nice. Not as good as his last Trinity issue with Luthor, Ra's and Circe. THAT was GOOD.

Cullen Bunn is a great writer, better than Manapul IMHO and i wish he stayed on the book.

[manofsteel1979]

My takeaway from this is twofold:

1) The infinite multiverse is back! Which is probably even bigger news than the main story!

2) For the first time they are allowing Superman to know he's been rebooted multiple times and he's not liking it. Far as I know, they've never done that before.

I think there were elements that DC would tease fans with but never openly acknowledge. Such as the infinite multiverse making a comeback or acknowledging Superman knows, or at least suspects, he's had previous lives. They've always walked a fine line by just keeping certain things under the surface. I think the pre-Crisis Superman is a sore spot for DC. They really do seem to go out of their way to never formally acknowledge he ever existed. And I can understand why. The changes after COIE were controversial and they don't want to get anyone's hopes up. New 52 may be the same way. That having been said, I really do think Diana's words mean that there is a universe out there where New 52 still exists. Though, yes, there was a lot of New 52 bashing.

My real hope to come out of Rebirth, though I am not getting it up, is that when all is said and done, he knows his TRUE history. That he remembers everything. Pre-Crisis, post-Crisis, Birthright, New 52, you name it. It seems grossly unfair to keep all this from him and I hope this is what they are building to. Maybe even some versions we've never seen before.

Hell toss in the Other media versions like the cartoons and the shows and movies. I personally would love to see that happen in some form.

[Atomic Man]

There's no backtracking necessary when you utilize your multiverse. I'm not suggesting the possibility of anything changing in the main canon line, neither am I suggesting that the verbatim New 52 Superman and Superdad were not indeed two halves of a whole in theory. I'm suggesting the potential meta in the idea that maybe something like him in spirit, could exist elsewhere when all is said and done.

To me its telling that its the New 52 version who's worried about no longer existing. Not the Superdad version. In a symbolic fight to prevent their merger, one would think BOTH versions would be scared of the idea of not existing independently. To me this is meta that the merger is really, in practice, more of an absorption, like we've always known it really is. Again its really more just in theory that its a merger. He's not REALLY living on as part of a whole and he knows it deep down and that's why he's so aggressively attacking. So Wonder Woman's words of comfort is what leads me to thinking of the above possibility. Again, in the sense that, hey, you're going away here but something like you may end up existing elsewhere.

As I've admitted time and again, Morrison's Action run and what it did for Superman was genius, just not at the expense of the iconic Superman. I'd be a huge supporter of the New 52 Superman if his stories were happening on Earth-One, even though I really enjoy what JMS did with those books. Morrison's New 52 Superman was very much in the Silver/Bronze Age mold anyway, and would have been perfect for the Earth-One continuity.

It's too bad DC didn't get all of the big New 52 creators to forge the Earth-One line and its continuity: Morrison on Superman, Snyder on Batman, Manapul on Flash, maybe even Azzarello (as much as I loathe his work) on Wonder Woman. Those takes would have been far more successful and popular freed from the continuity of the core DCU and the inevitable and constant comparisons to the classic DCU.

[Atomic Man]

Here's a thought about the multiple versions and the overall Rebirth arc: we've been focusing so much on the notion that Manhattan stole 10 years from the DCU, but what if that was just Wally's take on the situation? What if Manhattan "sifted" through universes like Luthor did in Infinite Crisis, combining different versions of the DCU from other Earths? This would mean that somewhere in the Multi-Multiverse, there is a Superman very much like the New 52 version.