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  1. #856
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    Personally, I really love to see a minority hero succeed and to become popular by their own actions and merits without needing to take the mantle of another hero to do so. It really feels like a cop out to me. Minority characters shouldn't have to do that in order to be successful and the message that I feel is being sent by giving a minority character an A-List character's mantle is that its not possible for them to become successful on their own merits.
    Truthfully, it's hard enough for any new hero, regardless of gender or race, to catch on. Not being a minority doesn't automatically grant a character high sales.
    I don't think it's so much that they can't be successful on their own merits, but more that Marvel is trying to give them a better shot of breaking in by being part of an established title.

    Then there's stuff like Green Lantern, where John Stewart and the rest have been given turns as Lanterns.

    Everyone complains (well most everyone today, it seems) about the original Leaguers being white. But they also have over 50 years of brand recognition and being used for merchandising, tv shows and cartoons.
    They can't just replace them.
    Just like the original crew of Star Trek couldn't be replaced today, and they do have minorities.
    What drives the company is the IPs and their value in merchandising.
    This is one of the reasons that when New52 was in full swing, licensed merchandise still carried the Garcia Lopez Silver/Bronze Age artwork and designs.
    Because the people paying DC/Warner for the use of the IPs want the most recognizable versions.

    So, it becomes a balancing act of introducing new heroes that reflect the world today, while not devaluing the more recognizable IPs that Marvel and DC rely on to keep the lights on.
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  2. #857
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    Minority character or not, new characters just don't have a prayer of selling a solo in the current market. It doesn't matter if they're a straight white male or a pansexual trans Latina, they aren't going to get a shot to succeed "on their own merits".
    I agree. In the current market its really difficult for ANYONE new to sell well.

    It's hard to get attention from readers and being a legacy gets you that attention, but it's still "on their own merits" whether or not they succeed or not.[/B]
    I'm going to try to say this carefully because I got a similar post deleted for the way it was phased elsewhere on this subject (I believe that was what happened anyway) but what good is it to get that attention if it doesn't then translate to sales once that character is wearing a different mantle? That attention surely should have translated into more sales regardless because the character is still the same person, just in a different mantle.
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  3. #858
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    I'm going to try to say this carefully because I got a similar post deleted for the way it was phased elsewhere on this subject (I believe that was what happened anyway) but what good is it to get that attention if it doesn't then translate to sales once that character is wearing a different mantle? That attention surely should have translated into more sales regardless because the character is still the same person, just in a different mantle.
    For older characters inheriting mantles (like Sam Wilson) it allows them to get more stories told about them and more trades on the shelves for people to see and get interested in. For brand new characters, it at least gives them a fighting chance to stick around after their initial book is done. And no, it shouldn't necessarily "surely have translated into more sales regardless" because a lot of fans sadly care more about the branding than the actual characters.

    Two other points: 1. We really don't have too many examples of characters who were introduced to be legacy heroes, proved successful and then got a new book once under a different mantle. 2. Why should a legacy hero's title have to be temporary? There are SO many things fans and the Big 2 do that are responsible for killing the industry and having the "Status Quo is God" mentality is definitely one of them.

  4. #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    For older characters inheriting mantles (like Sam Wilson) it allows them to get more stories told about them and more trades on the shelves for people to see and get interested in. For brand new characters, it at least gives them a fighting chance to stick around after their initial book is done. And no, it shouldn't necessarily "surely have translated into more sales regardless" because a lot of fans sadly care more about the branding than the actual characters.

    Two other points: 1. We really don't have too many examples of characters who were introduced to be legacy heroes, proved successful and then got a new book once under a different mantle. 2. Why should a legacy hero's title have to be temporary? There are SO many things fans and the Big 2 do that are responsible for killing the industry and having the "Status Quo is God" mentality is definitely one of them.
    Exactly! That's like saying let's take the mantle off of Superman and have him be a completely different Mantle. So instead of Superman, he would know as Space Lord.
    If he doesn't sell, does that mean it reflects more about the mantle than the character?

    The problem is that people assume mantle's are temporary for legacy characters, but permanent for classic characters, and use that as an excuse to pretend the problem is with the character itself. Yet if you take that same classic character and put him under a different mantle entirely, and the results crash, it just represents the same ordeal. Mantles are important.

  5. #860
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    But that's the problem, that's the message you're receiving from seeing minority heroes take on A-list mantles. This message is being interwoven with those that just want to see minority legacy heroes go away, and is being used to remove books that provide a completely different message to the thousands that support these heroes.
    Well I'm not in the crowd that wants to see them go away. I really want these characters, well really all non-A-Listers if I'm honest, to thrive and succeed. The problem with giving them legacy mantles is that its almost always going to be temporary, not just because of a segment of fans who want to shut minorities out, but because the original holders of those mantles are not allowed to age out of them in order to pass them on to another generation of characters. Another problem with the idea is that because it's only temporary those sales just don't translate to another book with the same character but wearing a different mantle. Sam Wilson sold very well when he was Cap but when he went back to being Falcon those sales dried up. Same thing happened when Dick Grayson went from being Batman back to Nightwing.

    I presented a thread, asking ONLY Marvel fans who started picking up comics during the ANAD time frame what would they do now that these characters were gone. What happened? The majority of people who posted were Non ANAD fans attacking the way ANAD went. Even though the thread content was specifically stated for ANAD readers because they would be the ones most invested into the heroes. That's the cancer that's killing this industry. On the other hand, a poster made a thread asking what books they were looking forward to regarding Marvel's Fresh S*** era with a specific request not to talk about Nostaglia, Diversity, etc. What happened? His wish was granted, because new readers actually have the common courtesy to allow people the freedom to enter a thread and talk about positive news, something classic fans clearly can't offer the same thing. They even have the nerve to go to legacy hero appreciation threads and attack characters there. That is what's killing this industry, as the option to expand to new markets are being bulldozed over by people who want their comics to remain the same as the 1960's.
    I just don't understand the people who derail and highjack threads to complain about this sort of stuff to be honest. Its not as if their favorites are going anywhere permanently and they really should know that by now since its really because of them that that is the case.


    Ultimately, no one is saying that legacy heroes should be the only heroes released. That's asinine and no one wants that. But to attack legacy heroes because you have a beef with them when they clearly speak to an audience is just as asinine. That's what DC did with their ridiculous comment about Dark Matter being "diversity done right". Had they kept their mouth shut and just focus on doing diversity their own way, I wouldn't have an issue. But the fact that DC talked this smack and yet their outcome pales in comparison to ANAD is nice pile of crap being tossed in their face.
    I agree that was a misstep on DCs part and that they shouldn't have bothered to say that but the thing is as soon as the minority characters Marvel elevated to legacy mantle return to their own mantles they are going to lose whatever sales advantage they had. Those sales for whatever reason are just not transferring to those other titles, which is stupid.
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    Oh my goodness gracious! I've been bamboozled!

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  6. #861
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    For older characters inheriting mantles (like Sam Wilson) it allows them to get more stories told about them and more trades on the shelves for people to see and get interested in. For brand new characters, it at least gives them a fighting chance to stick around after their initial book is done. And no, it shouldn't necessarily "surely have translated into more sales regardless" because a lot of fans sadly care more about the branding than the actual characters.
    And that's what I was getting at. This focus on the branding is real problem but still you would think that some of the people who discovered a minority character BECAUSE they were in a legacy mantle at the time (let's say Sam Wilson as Captain America) would have no problem following them back into their original mantle (Sam Wilson as Falcon) if it was the character that they liked. I've done it several times over the years but then I do tend to follow actual characters rather than the branding so I suppose that makes a difference.

    Two other points: 1. We really don't have too many examples of characters who were introduced to be legacy heroes, proved successful and then got a new book once under a different mantle. 2. Why should a legacy hero's title have to be temporary? There are SO many things fans and the Big 2 do that are responsible for killing the industry and having the "Status Quo is God" mentality is definitely one of them.
    2. It shouldn't have to be temporary at all but that's the result of the way characters are simply not allowed to retire, which means lower tiered characters are stuck where they are. For too many fans hero X is character Y and that's the end of it. No one else can be hero X on a permanent basis. I really wish things had been set up so that the original characters were actually allowed to age out of the hero business and could then pass their mantles down to the next generation without fans throwing a fit that Batman was no longer Bruce Wayne. That's probably why I prefer the books of smaller comic companies to most of the Big Two's lineup these days.
    Supporting LION FORGE COMICS and other independent publishers.

    Check out Lion Forge's Catalyst Prime Universe. Its the best damned superhero verse in comics. Diverse characters and interesting stories set in a universe where anyone can be a hero. And company that prides itself on representation both in the comics themselves and in the people behind them.

    Oh my goodness gracious! I've been bamboozled!

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  7. #862
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    In DC's case, I think that the more "iconic/mythiczl" take on heroes make it harder for new take to their characters, minorities and all (New 52 Superman, Wonder Woman, NuWally, etc). I mean, Rebirth id a big Nostalgia fest, obviously the core reafers don't want new things.
    Barring Batman, who's so big that I don't consider him a hero but something above, my current favorite characters are Cass Cain, Damian Wayne, Wally West II, Duke Thomas, Honor Guest, the whole cast of New Super-Man, Joe Chamberlain, The Outlaws, Derek James, Ethan Avery. Tjat' s a pretty diverse cast, but you'll notice that some of those characters will have their series, one of the best put out by DC in the last decade I'll say, being cancelled because the main character wasn't like Clark Kent from the get ho.

    That's why I'm enjoying the NAoH that I'm picking up while they'll last and that I'm vocal about it with the artists/writers on twitter. Better to let them know that even with low sales, their characters have a dedicated fanbase, it may help putting them in other "bigger" brand books in the future.

  8. #863
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    In DC's case, I think that the more "iconic/mythiczl" take on heroes make it harder for new take to their characters, minorities and all (New 52 Superman, Wonder Woman, NuWally, etc). I mean, Rebirth id a big Nostalgia fest, obviously the core reafers don't want new things.
    Barring Batman, who's so big that I don't consider him a hero but something above, my current favorite characters are Cass Cain, Damian Wayne, Wally West II, Duke Thomas, Honor Guest, the whole cast of New Super-Man, Joe Chamberlain, The Outlaws, Derek James, Ethan Avery. Tjat' s a pretty diverse cast, but you'll notice that some of those characters will have their series, one of the best put out by DC in the last decade I'll say, being cancelled because the main character wasn't like Clark Kent from the get ho.

    That's why I'm enjoying the NAoH that I'm picking up while they'll last and that I'm vocal about it with the artists/writers on twitter. Better to let them know that even with low sales, their characters have a dedicated fanbase, it may help putting them in other "bigger" brand books in the future.
    The thing is I may be a "core reader" but I actually want new things and even go so far as to put my money were my mouth is by supporting as many of the books as I find interesting. The characters I tend to like and whose books I most look forward to are the ones that aren't the big guns. My current favorites are the Outlaws, the NAoH characters collectively, Jon Kent, Damian Wayne, Duke Thomas, Wally West II (I flat out refuse to use the term NuWally for him), The entire Justice League of China, Cass Cain, (Killer) Frost, Ryan Choi, Kaldur, Emiko, Maya Ducard, Jessica Cruz, Simon Baz, John Stewart and well the list goes on and on really.

    Those characters are who I find to be interesting to me and new characters tend to get my attention far more easily than the big guns like Superman or Batman do as much as I like them too. It actually takes a lot for me to keep up with those two characters these days to be honest and it's been years since I've followed the Justice League with anything approaching regularity. There's just too much editorial interference and edicts with characters and books like those which is why books like the NAoH ones and companies like Lion Forge are just more appealing to me.
    Supporting LION FORGE COMICS and other independent publishers.

    Check out Lion Forge's Catalyst Prime Universe. Its the best damned superhero verse in comics. Diverse characters and interesting stories set in a universe where anyone can be a hero. And company that prides itself on representation both in the comics themselves and in the people behind them.

    Oh my goodness gracious! I've been bamboozled!

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  9. #864
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    the why I see it the younger heroes don't need to take over or the older ones because if there good enough they will make it on there own like night wing jason todd robin huntress batgirl
    if there not they wont as for dark matter there else world comics and they will likely go the way of other else world comics some will be good some bad and then they will end and make why for other else world comics
    which will do the same and so on
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    also I think if they want to make it they have to belong to the older hero's family and they have to be adorable or funny if there not one of those then they haven't got much of a hope of making it
    if someone isn't going isn't that the cutest thing you ever saw or smiling because its funny then black white blue male or female there doomed but that's just my thought
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  11. #866
    Spectacular Member Cap'n_RDM's Avatar
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    Are these books truly selling poorly? What is the general fan reception to the quality of the books? I've been picking up Brimstone, Sideways, & The Terrifics but haven't had the time to read any yet. The Unexpected also has my interest but Orlando hasn't really grabbed me as a writer yet.

    Regardless of how they are doing, I'm glad DC is trying new things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hero talk View Post
    the why I see it the younger heroes don't need to take over or the older ones because if there good enough they will make it on there own like night wing jason todd robin huntress batgirl
    There are so many things wrong with this sentence, dude. First, you listed off nothing but BatFamily characters. None of them have ever had to completely stand on their own. Second, one of them has never made it on her own. (Huntress, her one and only ongoing lasting less than two years back when that wasn't almost expected) Third, all the others, save Nightwing, struggle to sell on their own today. Fourth, all of these characters, save Damian, were created before the turn of the century in a very different market. And fifth, none of those characters were the first to hold their mantles and/or have books with them. Dick created Robin, wasn't the first Nightwing, but did have the first Nightwing ongoing. Jason was a legacy hero as Robin and the third or fourth character to call themselves 'Red Hood.' Damian's the 5th Robin, the blood Son of Batman and the previous Robin's ongoing lasted for almost two decades. Helena was the second Huntress. And Barbara? Not the first Batgirl, the last of the 3 'real' Batgirls to get an ongoing (her current one being by far the lowest selling Batgirl ongoing ever) and her non-legacy identity was stripped away from her.

    Quote Originally Posted by hero talk View Post
    if there not they wont as for dark matter there else world comics and they will likely go the way of other else world comics some will be good some bad and then they will end and make why for other else world comics
    which will do the same and so on
    NAoH books are set in the main DCU.
    Quote Originally Posted by hero talk View Post
    also I think if they want to make it they have to belong to the older hero's family and they have to be adorable or funny if there not one of those then they haven't got much of a hope of making it
    if someone isn't going isn't that the cutest thing you ever saw or smiling because its funny then black white blue male or female there doomed but that's just my thought
    Not gonna bother with another full breakdown here. This just isn't true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cap'n_RDM View Post
    Are these books truly selling poorly?
    March 2018 Diamond Sales

    Sideways #2: 23,807
    Damage #3: 22,394
    Silencer #3: 18,208

    I don't count Teriffics as those aren't new characters and the rest don't have sales data out yet.

  13. #868
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    There are so many things wrong with this sentence, dude. First, you listed off nothing but BatFamily characters. None of them have ever had to completely stand on their own. Second, one of them has never made it on her own. (Huntress, her one and only ongoing lasting less than two years back when that wasn't almost expected) Third, all the others, save Nightwing, struggle to sell on their own today. Fourth, all of these characters, save Damian, were created before the turn of the century in a very different market. And fifth, none of those characters were the first to hold their mantles and/or have books with them. Dick created Robin, wasn't the first Nightwing, but did have the first Nightwing ongoing. Jason was a legacy hero as Robin and the third or fourth character to call themselves 'Red Hood.' Damian's the 5th Robin, the blood Son of Batman and the previous Robin's ongoing lasted for almost two decades. Helena was the second Huntress. And Barbara? Not the first Batgirl, the last of the 3 'real' Batgirls to get an ongoing (her current one being by far the lowest selling Batgirl ongoing ever) and her non-legacy identity was stripped away from her.



    NAoH books are set in the main DCU.


    Not gonna bother with another full breakdown here. This just isn't true.



    March 2018 Diamond Sales

    Sideways #2: 23,807
    Damage #3: 22,394
    Silencer #3: 18,208

    I don't count Teriffics as those aren't new characters and the rest don't have sales data out yet.
    If you repeated yourself again that would be odd it would also be poor writing also thank you for telling me they are not else world or like earth two with the name I thought it so
    in that case why is dc setting them apart like that that does not seem welcoming to me if I made one and they said yes we love it let just make it super good by putting a new brand on it I would not be a happy person
    Last edited by hero talk; 04-28-2018 at 07:55 AM.
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  14. #869
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assam View Post
    March 2018 Diamond Sales

    Sideways #2: 23,807
    Damage #3: 22,394
    Silencer #3: 18,208

    I don't count Teriffics as those aren't new characters and the rest don't have sales data out yet.
    I wonder how the digital sales are. I hate looking at direct market numbers now because that's only one slice of the pie these days. It might still be the biggest slice, but there's a lot of pie beyond the hobby shops, and if characters like Moon Girl, Ms. Marvel, etc., are anything to go by, the NAoH characters could very well find readers outside Diamond's numbers.

    For brand new characters without a Bat on their chest, these are about the level of floppy sales I expected though. Perhaps if they had been introduced and used during Metal instead of launching out of its ending, we'd see a slight increase in those figures (though how Snyder would tell his story and also introduce a dozen new heroes is beyond me). But I really hope DC gives these books a chance to find an audience. It'd be a shame to see DC cut and run at the first sign of trouble, like they've so often done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hero talk View Post
    If you repeated yourself again that would be odd it would also be poor writing also thank you for telling me they are not else world or like earth two with the name I thought it so
    in that case why is dc setting them apart like that that does not seem welcoming to me if I made one and they said yes we love it let just make it super good by putting a new brand on it I would not be a happy person
    I wouldn’t say dc is setting them apart, they’ve brought other characters from the universe into some of the titles. Silencer has featured Deathstroke and Talia al Ghul. Damage has already gone up against Suicide Squad, Poison Ivy, and Wonder Woman and is solicited to feature Grodd and Swamp Thing too. I believe Sideways recently had a character spun out of events from the flash and will deal with the dark multiverse seen in metal directly since that’s where his abilities came from. The Terrifics are a team made up of existing DC characters so it’s a little weird they’re part of this line. I think the title “New Age of Heroes” wasn’t meant to separate them from the rest of the DC universe, but rather make them stand out as new additions to it.

    Edit: I’m also intrigued by the new titles and plan to/have been supporting all except New Challengers since it’s just a mini, which I’ll probably read eventually in trade format. I would very much like most of these new characters to stick around so the best I can do is support them month to month.
    Last edited by soundsci; 04-28-2018 at 08:20 AM.

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