X-men: who was stronger?

[JasonEsta]

Jean Grey and Iceman stomp the Blue team. Storm is the gravy.
The only thing the Gold team lacks is technical resources. If Beast whips up a mutant power inhibitor, then Blue wins.

Nah...Rogue can beat the whole Gold team. Storm may stand a chance but Iceman is no team wrecker.

[DurararaFTW]

Jubilee and Forge definitely weren't officially part of either team. Place them based on where they appeared more and you ought to do the same with Xavier.

[Sardorim]

Excalibur's definitely the most powerful thanks to the Phoenix and magic users.

Indeed, Excalibur is also when Rachel was at her most powerful and had more control of the Phoenix than anyone ever even to this day. Even now no other host has been able to mimic her ridiculously broken feats during that era.

Meggan only did that with Phoenix backing her up. I've read the first 30 or 40 issues of Excalibur, and Meggan wasn't anywhere near Storm and Jean's level. Phoenix is the clincher for them, but she'd turn into a puddle against Jean at that time.

You should re-read Excalibur. No way could Jean beat a full powered Phoenix from that era. Rachel was a monster at that point with her mastery of the full Phoenix Force, something no one has ever done before or after her - not even her mother when she was alive. Mortals cannot compare, especially since like her mother she's an Omega Level Mutant WITHOUT the Phoenix Force.

[DDM]

Meggan only did that with Phoenix backing her up. I've read the first 30 or 40 issues of Excalibur, and Meggan wasn't anywhere near Storm and Jean's level. Phoenix is the clincher for them, but she'd turn into a puddle against Jean at that time.

Meggan grew to Galactus size and strength once, but it started killing the planet. She was incredibly powerful and versatile (and that just expanded under Ellis, Claremont and Cornell later on when her elemental and empathic abilities developed outward) but she didn't really have the control or willpower to probably make much difference against Storm or Jean way back then. She'd slaughter Storm now tho. :3

CB, Cerise and Feron were all also potential heavy hitters for Excalibur too, although Brian still had his Blunder Factor working against him then. I think Rachel was reconciled to not having a relationship with Jean then either, this was after DOFPresent where Jean rejected her.

[ChronoRogue]

I think the only way Blue would be able to win was if they stockpiled their powers and gave them to Rogue. It still wouldn't be enough to weather a full assault by Iceman, Storm and Jean but if she could get her hands on Bishop... then it'd be over.

But yeah, that would require more luck and planning than would likely happen. As it is, Blue is just too street level to do anything to Gold.

[Kisinith]

Realistically Gold was the more powerful/versatile. In a htH fight you'd be hard pressed to have any group be a match for Blue but Gold was on an entirely different level power wise. I also think that for reasons entirely related to the 90's the team with Wolverine, Gambit, Rogue and Psylock would somehow win. PIS ftw

[rutog98]

Nah...Rogue can beat the whole Gold team. Storm may stand a chance but Iceman is no team wrecker.

Rogue would be no match for either Ororo or Jean. She's not getting anywhere near Storm through her winds and Storm can flat out knock her out so many ways with any number of applications of her elemental powers. Also, Rogue would lose to Jean's telepathy.

Indeed, Excalibur is also when Rachel was at her most powerful and had more control of the Phoenix than anyone ever even to this day. Even now no other host has been able to mimic her ridiculously broken feats during that era.



You should re-read Excalibur. No way could Jean beat a full powered Phoenix from that era. Rachel was a monster at that point with her mastery of the full Phoenix Force, something no one has ever done before or after her - not even her mother when she was alive. Mortals cannot compare, especially since like her mother she's an Omega Level Mutant WITHOUT the Phoenix Force.

Here's the thing with a Jean vs. Phoenix Force Rachel, I am not sure the Phoenix Force would help Rachel against Jean in that fight. It may force Rachel to fight Jean with her own natural power levels and not lend Rachel any of its power. Afterwards, it would probably take possession of the victor of such a contest between mother and daughter. When she doesn't have the Phoenix Force, Rachel tends to lose her fights with other telepaths leading me to believe that she'd lose to Jean in a telepathic duel if the Phoenix Force isn't amping up her powers. However, if the PF does help Rachel in a fight against Jean Grey, then Jean doesn't last a split second.

Meggan grew to Galactus size and strength once, but it started killing the planet. She was incredibly powerful and versatile (and that just expanded under Ellis, Claremont and Cornell later on when her elemental and empathic abilities developed outward) but she didn't really have the control or willpower to probably make much difference against Storm or Jean way back then. She'd slaughter Storm now tho. :3

CB, Cerise and Feron were all also potential heavy hitters for Excalibur too, although Brian still had his Blunder Factor working against him then. I think Rachel was reconciled to not having a relationship with Jean then either, this was after DOFPresent where Jean rejected her.

Meggan did grow to Galactus's size, but she was nowhere near his strength. She has no feats that puts her anywhere near Storm's power levels. The most impressive thing Meggan has done on Earth was quell a forest fire. Big deal. Storm has feats on a continental, hemisphere, global, and cosmic scale. Meggan simply doesn't compare to Ororo and she also has no defenses against the Gold's telepath, Jean Grey.

To be honest, outside of Phoenix Force Rachel, there isn't a single character on either of these teams that could stand up to Ororo and Jean. Not only that, but I think Storm could solo any of these teams if she really wanted to. The only reason I say Jean can't solo the Blue team is because of Psylocke. Betsy could cause Jean enough problems telepathically to distract her long enough for somebody like Rogue or Cyclops to take her out.

One more observation, without Rachel on Excalibur, the Blue team would beat Excalibur as well. Psylocke could take out Meggan and Kurt together with her telepathy in no time flat which would them allow her to use her telepathy to help her teammates in their fights. Rogue could distract Captain Britian long enough until Betsy can help her with him. Kitty Pryde could become a problem for the Blue team, though, now that I think about it. Shadowcat would be able to resist Betsy's TP when intangible and the Blue has no real way to take her down...
Hmmm, I don't know who'd win between Blue and Excalibur if Rachel were not in play.

[WhiteQueenEmmaFrost]

Gold took on bigger threats Blue had villains that were kind of easy to deal with....or no villains at all like the Revanche story. I liked the teams back then because they were put together based on what their powers could do as a team it wasn't so much for the relationships. Now it feels rather cliquey. "you're on my team because you're my friend" the older Gold & Blue were more powerset focused on the logic of who was on what team.

[DDM]

Here's the thing with a Jean vs. Phoenix Force Rachel, I am not sure the Phoenix Force would help Rachel against Jean in that fight. It may force Rachel to fight Jean with her own natural power levels and not lend Rachel any of its power. Afterwards, it would probably take possession of the victor of such a contest between mother and daughter. When she doesn't have the Phoenix Force, Rachel tends to lose her fights with other telepaths leading me to believe that she'd lose to Jean in a telepathic duel if the Phoenix Force isn't amping up her powers. However, if the PF does help Rachel in a fight against Jean Grey, then Jean doesn't last a split second.

At this point the Phoenix was completely bonded to Rachel, and when Jean appeared it didn't defer to her or restrict Rachel in any way during their appearances together. It had also relinquished it's sentience fully around this time after learning from Galactus it's existence on this level was siphoning lifeforce from future unborn so Rachel would've been in full control presumably.

Meggan did grow to Galactus's size, but she was nowhere near his strength. She has no feats that puts her anywhere near Storm's power levels. The most impressive thing Meggan has done on Earth was quell a forest fire. Big deal. Storm has feats on a continental, hemisphere, global, and cosmic scale. Meggan simply doesn't compare to Ororo and she also has no defenses against the Gold's telepath, Jean Grey.

No, Meg was also matching Galactus' strength. The issue was she was literally destroying Earth to do it since she draws her power directly from the planet.

That was really her most impressive feat at this point, other than replicating the Outback era X-Men right down to their genome (and thus their powers too, Storm included) but doing that took Rachel's help/intimate knowledge. Later on though we do have other impressive feats from her like stopping a volcanic eruption and redirecting the magma flow, having the Earth swallow a large government facility whole, closing a cross-dimensional tear in reality with her bare hands or empathically starting a revolutionary army in Hell.

That's sort of the thing though, Meggan's an emphathic omnimorph elemental. She can do about anything really and her powers sort of uniquely qualify her to counter other elemental controllers like Storm or others (Crystal, Magma, Iceman, etc). Storm can't really throw anything at her that Meggan can't take (she literally absorbed lava once), and that's before we get to Meg's other talents (genome level shapeshifting, flight, super strength and endurance, empathic suggestion, force beams, heightened senses, etc). Storm's a glass cannon by comparison, while Meggan's like a tank with the cannon mounted to it. And much like Storm, Meggan also has bloodline ties to ancient magics (being possibly a direct descendant of the Baba Yaga). She's sort of ridiculously overpowered.

That's why I don't think Storm would have much chance against Meggan now in a fair fight. Meggan in 1991/1992 though however was a lot less experienced with a lot less control and her powers were comparably immature. People tend to forget just how young she was then though, she was still a teenager when Excalibur formed and not much older than Rachel and Kitty, and Brian's got a solid decade on her. I think Storm could definitely take her at that point.

To be honest, outside of Phoenix Force Rachel, there isn't a single character on either of these teams that could stand up to Ororo and Jean. Not only that, but I think Storm could solo any of these teams if she really wanted to. The only reason I say Jean can't solo the Blue team is because of Psylocke. Betsy could cause Jean enough problems telepathically to distract her long enough for somebody like Rogue or Cyclops to take her out.

One more observation, without Rachel on Excalibur, the Blue team would beat Excalibur as well. Psylocke could take out Meggan and Kurt together with her telepathy in no time flat which would them allow her to use her telepathy to help her teammates in their fights. Rogue could distract Captain Britian long enough until Betsy can help her with him. Kitty Pryde could become a problem for the Blue team, though, now that I think about it. Shadowcat would be able to resist Betsy's TP when intangible and the Blue has no real way to take her down...
Hmmm, I don't know who'd win between Blue and Excalibur if Rachel were not in play.

Telepaths sort of inherently tip the scales of things as they shift conflict outside the physical realm. I agree without Rachel that Excalibur would be pretty fucked against Jean or Betsy (although Brian's immune to the latter so maybe there's more of a shot there). I also think Storm could probably take anyone besides Rachel one on one on Excalibur but no way could she take out the entire team solo. Not with two flying tanks, a flying hard light bender, an acrobatic teleporter, a phasing ninja, a master swordsman and a young sorcerer. And also an adorable little multilingual dragon and cute floating head that makes cross-dimensional gateways. :3

TBH if you take out the telepaths I think Excalibur overall would still probably be a solid match for Gold, and they'd still completely destroy Blue.

[rutog98]

At this point the Phoenix was completely bonded to Rachel, and when Jean appeared it didn't defer to her or restrict Rachel in any way during their appearances together. It had also relinquished it's sentience fully around this time after learning from Galactus it's existence on this level was siphoning lifeforce from future unborn so Rachel would've been in full control presumably.


No, Meg was also matching Galactus' strength. The issue was she was literally destroying Earth to do it since she draws her power directly from the planet.

That was really her most impressive feat at this point, other than replicating the Outback era X-Men right down to their genome (and thus their powers too, Storm included) but doing that took Rachel's help/intimate knowledge. Later on though we do have other impressive feats from her like stopping a volcanic eruption and redirecting the magma flow, having the Earth swallow a large government facility whole, closing a cross-dimensional tear in reality with her bare hands or empathically starting a revolutionary army in Hell.

That's sort of the thing though, Meggan's an emphathic omnimorph elemental. She can do about anything really and her powers sort of uniquely qualify her to counter other elemental controllers like Storm or others (Crystal, Magma, Iceman, etc). Storm can't really throw anything at her that Meggan can't take (she literally absorbed lava once), and that's before we get to Meg's other talents (genome level shapeshifting, flight, super strength and endurance, empathic suggestion, force beams, heightened senses, etc). Storm's a glass cannon by comparison, while Meggan's like a tank with the cannon mounted to it. And much like Storm, Meggan also has bloodline ties to ancient magics (being possibly a direct descendant of the Baba Yaga). She's sort of ridiculously overpowered.

That's why I don't think Storm would have much chance against Meggan now in a fair fight. Meggan in 1991/1992 though however was a lot less experienced with a lot less control and her powers were comparably immature. People tend to forget just how young she was then though, she was still a teenager when Excalibur formed and not much older than Rachel and Kitty, and Brian's got a solid decade on her. I think Storm could definitely take her at that point.


Telepaths sort of inherently tip the scales of things as they shift conflict outside the physical realm. I agree without Rachel that Excalibur would be pretty fucked against Jean or Betsy (although Brian's immune to the latter so maybe there's more of a shot there). I also think Storm could probably take anyone besides Rachel one on one on Excalibur but no way could she take out the entire team solo. Not with two flying tanks, a flying hard light bender, an acrobatic teleporter, a phasing ninja, a master swordsman and a young sorcerer. And also an adorable little multilingual dragon and cute floating head that makes cross-dimensional gateways. :3

TBH if you take out the telepaths I think Excalibur overall would still probably be a solid match for Gold, and they'd still completely destroy Blue.

1) Meggan was taking energy from the Earth to grow in size to match Galactus. Rachel stopped her saying that even if she could draw all of the energy from the Earth, it would still be nowhere near enough power to fight Galactus. There is no indication that Meggan could take all of the energy from the Earth, but Storm could easily drain the planet of all of its energy if she wanted to. Just look at her galactic core feat for proof of this. So, again, while Meggan did match Galactus's size, her power was a pitance compared to his.

2) Storm's power are limited by the strength of her will and body. If Meggan takes on Ororo's shape to use Storm's powers, she would lose badly against Ororo. Storm has one of the most powerful wills in all of creation while Meggan has the willpower of a marshmellow.

3) Here's the thing, Meggan's feats of elemental powers are very small and minor compared to Ororo's stunts. Storm has channeled continent-sized blizzards through her body, dispersed hemisphere-sized hurricanes (keep in mind that it is more difficult for Storm to quell tempests than it is for her to create them and she dispersed this hemisphere-sized hurricane), she pulled gamma rays out of a gamma ray gun, fused that energy with the energies of the world and then shaped that combined energy to create a protective elemental shield around the planet which deflected a world-destroying blast from the sun. Storm has also controlled the solar winds on a global scale for 4 hours straight while keeping enough fine-tune control over the solar wind so as to not do any damage to the Earth...and I still haven't said it all. I'm just getting started on Storm's feats, but I can go on if need be.

4) Meggan never closed a dimensional tear with her bare hands. That was Captain Britian aided by some members of the X-Men team.

5) In a Meggan vs. Storm battle, Meggan has no answer to Storm's winds. While Meggan can control the wind as well, her winds are gentle breezes compared to what Ororo can dish out. Storm has summoned winds strong enough to bulldoze her way out of a moutain. Her winds were also strong enough to redirect the full power of Sienna Blaze, a mutant with the power to split the planet like a ripe melon, Ororo's winds have also knocked the huge Terminus (who can fly through stars) on his backside with enough force to collapse a mountainside, lifted skyscrapers with ease, and more. If Storm uses winds like this to slam Meggan all around the battlefield, Meggan is going to go unconscious...assuming she survives the experience.

6) I don't recall Excalibur having a sorcerer on the team. Its been forever since I've read any of those issues. What is his name?

7) I agree that if all the telepaths are removed from the fight, then Blue comes in dead last. It would be Gold, then Excalibur, then Blue.

[rutog98]

One more thing about the Jean vs. Phoenix Force Rachel fight: the reason I said the PF may withhold its power from Rachel while she fights Jean is because the PF doesn't like to hurt Jean Grey. While "What Ifs" are not canon, there was such a "What If" where Rachel with the Phoenix Force fought Madelyne Pryor. The PF refused to help Rachel in the fight because Maddie was a clone of Jean Grey. So, what it did, it just waited on the sidelines and let the two telepaths fight it out on the merits of their own natural powers. The reason I bring up this "What if" instance is it dovetails with the "No More Humans" (I hate bringing up this story arc since Storm's powers were written down so badly throughout the entire story) where Jeen attacked a Dark Phoenix Jean Grey from another reality. When Dark Phoenix Jean Grey sought to strike back against Jeen, it halted its attack before striking Jeen down. IIRC, it then tried to possess both versions of Jean. For Rachel's benefit, in the 12 issue story arc where a cadre of the X-Men fought Vulcan, I seem to recall somebody trying to use a weapon (a sword, I believe) that had a portion of the PF bonded with it against Rachel and it refused to hurt her because it liked her due to the Phoenix Force liking Rachel.

If I am wrong in my recollection of anything I have said in this post, feel free to to correct me, anyone. It has been a long time since I have read these stories.

The point of this post is if Rachel had the PF and challenged Jean to a fight, I am not so sure the PF would help Rachel to win against Jean in such a contest. If this is the case, I seriously doubt Rachel would win a telepathic duel against Jean if the PF remains neutral in their struggle. Rachel almost always loses against other telepaths in fights when she doesn't have the PF to help her out.

Edit: If you take Phoenix Force Rachel off of Excalibur, exactly how do they beat Ororo if she wanted to take the team down by her lonesome? If she unleashes a massively powerful wind attack that blankets the entire battlefield, what are they going to do about it? As for Nightcrawler, all she'd have to do to stop him would be to include blinding snow, rain, and/or fog with her wind attack to stop him from being able to see anything. He won't risk teleporting blindly. She could also do something like glove herself in a massive concentration of electrical energy so that if he teleports and rematerializes anywhere near her, he gets instantly incincerated (if she wants to kill him) or instantly electrocuted into unconsciousness.

[AcesX1X]

meggan got two upgrades since then, 1 being ruler of hell itself and 2 being supreme omniversal majestrix after roma passed her crown to meggan and brian.

not only can meggan channel all over the fury of great britain herself, but she can also yield the magnitude of the multiverse and combined with her own corner of domination over hell.

the only thing comparable storm would have is the ability to channel the sun through her body

[rutog98]

meggan got two upgrades since then, 1 being ruler of hell itself and 2 being supreme omniversal majestrix after roma passed her crown to meggan and brian.

not only can meggan channel all over the fury of great britain herself, but she can also yield the magnitude of the multiverse and combined with her own corner of domination over hell.

the only thing comparable storm would have is the ability to channel the sun through her body

Show me the feats Meggan has to show she can withstand Storm's winds? Not only that, but Storm still has her internal attacks. She could shut Meggan down by scrambling the electrical impulses in her brain. You're saying some awesome stuff here, but I don't see any feats from Meggan to back up what you're saying about her power levels.

[AcesX1X]

storm cannot scramble meggan or or blow her away

[rutog98]

storm cannot scramble meggan or or blow her away

Based on what? If Storm can supercede Stardust's, a herald of Galactus, control over her own body at the sub-atomic level and blow her atoms apart with her control over electron manipulation, there is no way Meggan is going to be able to stop Storm from scrambling the electrical impulses in her nervous system. Not only that, but lets face it, Storm is an immensely more powerful elemental than Meggan. Also, given Storm's wind feats, how do you propose Meggan withstands that kind of force? I mean, Storm can summon winds strong enough to redirect the full power of a being who had the power to split the planet like a ripe melon. You're telling me winds like that are not going to not only blow Meggan away? Not only will those winds blow her away, they will also smash her about the battlefield with tremendous force until she is either unconscious or dead.

Right behind that, how is Meggan any kind of a threat to Storm in battle? There is no elemental force Meggan can unleash that Storm can't either counter and over power with her own elemental abilities or simply wrest control of the element from Meggan and turn it back upon her. Meggan's only chance against Ororo would be to get within arms length of Storm so she can use her super strength and shape-shifting powers to try and take Storm down. Good luck with that seeing how Storm will use to winds to keep Meggan away from her.