The Flash #21 Preview/Discussion

[BatmanJones]

Man, did they HAVE TO bring IDENTITY CRISIS back into the mix?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

They didn't have to bring anything back. Not everyone agrees ID Crisis was a bad thing. Many, like me, found it to be the best JLA story of all time.

But we don't need to agree about that. That's what's so wonderful about what seems to be happening here. It seems like we're getting it ALL back, which isn't just a New 52 correction; it's a correction of DC's original sin, Crisis on Infinite Earths... The first time the DCU was retconned to the exclusion of old stories and the first time we were told any story 'didn't happen.'

This is what I've been wishing for from DC Comics since 1985. It's been a long wait but I'm so pleased that the DCU's entire, rich history has been restored. And it really seems like that's what they're doing here. I can't imagine anyone being unhappy about that. And, when it comes to comics fans, everything seems to make somebody furious. I can't imagine this doing that.

[BatmanJones]

Lol @promotion.

It would be nice to see DC treat some other superteams as being equal to the League.

It seems like it's sort of the point of the JL that it be the best and brightest. It would also be nice to see other cities regarded as NYC is, but that's not going to happen. There's a reason they call it "the city" and a reason Sinatra sang "if you can make it there, you'll make it anywhere." JL membership is the same. It should always be the top honor, given only to those most deserving.

It doesn't mean it has to be the most popular title and lately it's about the worst thing DC's publishing (who told Bryan Hitch he could write? he's such a wonderful artist!) but JL membership should always be a greater honor than membership on another team. And sure, with JLI or JL Detroit or the various second JL books that have come out since New 52, that's not always so, but those are the exceptions. Eventually the JL always reverts to its mean as the gold standard of superhero teams.

It doesn't mean Titans or Teen Titans or some other team can't become better sellers, but "in story" JL should always be top of the pops.

[BatmanJones]

It depends on when on the timeline DC would put Vic's first adventures as a member of the Justice League. If he's slotted in during what would be the satellite era, I imagine it would be at some point before Wally or Dick joined the League.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

It seems to me that -- if everything has happened -- Cyborg's membership in the League would post-date every story that happened before New 52. In other words, this seems to be the chronological order of things...

1. DCU history not messed with, every story happened: 1938-1985
2. Post-Crisis DCU/Clutter Earth: 1985-Doctor Manhattan (we presume) steals 10 years
3. Doctor Manhattan (we presume) steals 10 years
4. Flashpoint/New 52
5. New 52 (JLA forgets they were ever a team, forms anew with Cyborg)
6. Rebirth - Restoration of all DCU history including original founding of JLA, 10 years go missing/everyone forgets they were ever in JL(A) or Teen Titans, New 52 founding of JL, it's all remembered.

It seems to me that's the order of events. So Dick and Wally would certainly have been members before everyone forgot they were on ANY team and THEN the New 52 League met (not realizing they were a team before) and formed differently than they had originally.

In other words everything happened in the order it was published. That is a benefit of all things being true again.

Crisis on Infinite Earths was meant to simplify continuity but it wound up having the opposite effect and the more they tried to correct it the deeper the continuity holes they dug.

There will be some contradictory threads to address (such as Superman and Wonder Woman never having been romantic) but not so many. And there will never be a question about what's canon and what isn't again because the DCU is going back to the pre-1985 model to say it ALL happened, just as it was for 50 years since Superman first appeared.

[Johnny]

It was so great to see some of the "missing memories". This crossover is kicking ass.

[Lee]

So it seems that the ORIGINAL JUSTICE LEAGUE Origin, the ORIGINAL ONE not the new 52 one, is out there and is being restored to its proper place in Rebirth history.

You're jumping the gun. Flash says "that's not how the Justice League was formed". Flash and Batman are witnessing a previous timeline, but it hasn't actually been brought back into continuity.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

You're jumping the gun. Flash says "that's not how the Justice League was formed". Flash and Batman are witnessing a previous timeline, but it hasn't actually been brought back into continuity.

He also says "I don't think these are alternate realities...these are from out universe." They're setting it up so that the DCU as it is currently is an incomplete puzzle, and those events are the missing puzzle pieces.

[sakuyamons]

It was so great to see some of the "missing memories". This crossover is kicking ass.

I love this panel

[Slaughter]

If they're going to add a eighth league founder, they should do the right thing and bring in Black Lightning.
Cyborg as league founder doesn't work, period.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

It depends on when on the timeline DC would put Vic's first adventures as a member of the Justice League. If he's slotted in during what would be the satellite era, I imagine it would be at some point before Wally or Dick joined the League.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Technically, Cyborg was a member of the League in the mid-1980s along with Firestorm if you could the Super Powers cartoon. If DC is going to embrace all mediums, this would be a pretty good place to stick his first induction into the League, shortly after his first appearance with the New Teen Titans.

And, yes, Black Lightning should be retconned in as a part-timer even before that.

[Robotman]

While I love what Porter did with all the artifacts in the background, some of them contradict the story. There were a few JSA costumes and weapons stored in the "Hall of Lost and Found". Hourman and the Star-spangled Kid's costumes where right there! Is there maybe a mental block which is forcing the League members to overlook all of that stuff? Pretty sure Batman would be meticulous with cataloging all those items.

Technically, Cyborg was a member of the League in the mid-1980s along with Firestorm if you could the Super Powers cartoon. If DC is going to embrace all mediums, this would be a pretty good place to stick his first induction into the League, shortly after his first appearance with the New Teen Titans.

And, yes, Black Lightning should be retconned in as a part-timer even before that.

So they're going to have to do a big Titans story which restores Cyborg's connection with the team. I like the idea of Super Powers being in continuity. That would mean Cyborg may not be a founder but he was a team member very early on.

If they're going to add a eighth league founder, they should do the right thing and bring in Black Lightning.
Cyborg as league founder doesn't work, period.

While I think Black Lightning should be a League member, him initially turning down the offer to join the JLA was a big character moment. he didn't want to hover above the earth and look down on people from a satellite. He was intent on helping his community and overlooked populations. Black Lightning definitely shouldn't be a founder.

[SlimeStack]

The founders should honestly just be the people who were actually there when the JLA started in the silver age. Just recruit the other people into the modern JLA if you want to use them rather than retconning the origin all the time.

[Lee]

He also says "I don't think these are alternate realities...these are from out universe." They're setting it up so that the DCU as it is currently is an incomplete puzzle, and those events are the missing puzzle pieces.

Maybe, maybe not.

But at the moment that's not how the Justice League was formed.

[AquaLantern]

If they're going to add a eighth league founder, they should do the right thing and bring in Black Lightning.
Cyborg as league founder doesn't work, period.

Except that it does work, you just hate it because you don't like change.

[SlimeStack]

Except that it does work, you just hate it because you don't like change.

Change isn't always good. This change in particular comes at the expense of his entire TT family and history. Having him graduate from TT to JL is a much better move. He doesn't gain anything from being a JL founder.

[Kaine322]

It was so great to see some of the "missing memories". This crossover is kicking ass.

I love this panel

Where is this panel from? I don't see it in Flash #21?