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  1. #1021
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    Did Geoff Johns have a stroke?
    Geoff Johns didn’t write this episode. The blame should be squarely laid at the showrunner: Greg Walker(who co-wrote this with episode with another writer). This leaves me to believe this show needs a change of creatives at the helm. They need a new writing staff or showrunner.
    Last edited by Amadeus Arkham; 11-29-2019 at 10:34 PM.
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  2. #1022
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuck frump View Post
    This is the first episode Ive actually found bad since season premiere but still in a so bad its good way. Lot of bad voice acting and bad posturing and failing at showing emotion all around.

    Writing wise the only stuff I really disliked was how easy it was to fix Conner and the death. I understand wanting to keep the death separate from Deathstroke and Cadmus because we've just had a whole season of revenge plot but the death itself was really stupid. Conner was literally standing right there. At least I guess Raven will fix it.

    Im enjoying the roster changes, but there need to be more interactions and bonding between ppl who are not Dick Grayson. Season 1 did a good job with Gar/Raven/Kory and we had some hints of Kory/Donna, Gar/Conner and Hank/Jason but it really felt missing this episode. Id especially wanted to see Kory reaction to the death considering they spent some time together earlier in the season and seemed to have bonded but that was completely ignored.

    When I started watching this show, I was mostly excited about Dick/Kory after reading the Wolfman run Titans comics.
    It seems like they are not going to do much about Dick/Kory.

    I feel like this show is moving at a very slow pace.
    heck...Kory doesn't even fly in the show
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  3. #1023
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    That was...not good. Execution, writing, etc. Nightwing suit and electric tonfas were good.

    And seriously, not one word about what Jason is up to, even from Bruce and Dick?

    Goes to show that without Geoff Johns at the helm for the script, it falls apart.

  4. #1024
    Mighty Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    I JUST knew they would mess it all up. I knew they would, but I did not expect it to be that bad.

    Boy was that absolutely terrible. Deathstroke--the big bad of this entire season--dies with the first 10 minutes of the episode in the most anti-climatic way possible. The fight choreography was good, but am I supposed to believe that Dick can suddenly now take on Slade on his own so easily because he's happy and has a new suit? The moment Slade stopped firing, Donna and Dawn should have got out of that car and helped him. But they just sat in the car and watched. Such heroes. Such a team. And Rose shows up out of nowhere and stabs Slade. A stab wound to the gut? Really? That entire talk of him being nearly unkillable and Rose kills him that easily.

    Jericho and Rose have never met or spoken before, and somehow they play it off like they had an agreement to join consciousness. Am I the only one who thinks it makes Jericho look absolutely selfish? They never spoke about this and he just went into her like it isn't a big deal. Nobody even talks about it again. All the drama about Dick feeling guilty for Jericho's death just stopped mattering.

    And that carnival fight. God that fight was just terrible all around. Where the hell did Dick and Rose go? Why were only the other girls there at first? Why did Dick to make some stupid dramatic entrance and how did Hank even get there? Speaking of, wasn't Gar specifically programmed to attack Rachel? What the hell happened to that? He just kinda growls at her? And Rachel kinda just do whatever the plot needs her to do. Then you have Dick using some kind of flashbang grenade on Conner, which seems to conveniently make him disappear for several minutes to so Dick can have a quippy conversation with the Titans, so they can all ninja away and get into positions, and come up with a plan with Rachel (who was not near them!) offscreen? Seriously what kind of shit writing is that? And why would the remaining crowd have even applauded after it? From their perspective, a wild alien tiger started murdering people, CADMUS sends a super-soldier in to protect them, only for weird costumed freaks to show up and convert him to the dark side.

    You can't convince me that Donna's death wasn't meant to be a joke. You just can't. Just a few minutes before it she fought Superboy and was barely hurt. How is anyone supposed to believe she can be killed by electrocution? Why didn't Superboy--the guy we just saw shoot a gun and move fast enough to catch the bullet--help her out? Was that really the best these writers could come up with? Why didn't die fighting Deathstroke (like in the past) or I don't know, die fighting Superboy? I've complained several times about this show trying to be dark, trying to be bold but never committing to it. Superboy just gets cured with deus ex machina powers. No tension, no real stakes. I'm sick of it.

    Dick and Bruce have multiple conversations in this episode, yet they don't even talk about Jason? About his PTSD and attempted suicide? About him leaving the team? Nobody talks about it? It's all just we're a happy family now? Speaking of, that entire theme was just forced. What did the Titans ever do for Rose? Them taking her in was part of Slade's plan. The OG Titans were suspicious of her, and the new ones didn't particularly care for her either. How are they her family? Second, what did the Titans ever do for Conner? Sure they saved his life after he saved Jason, but they abandoned him after that (which led to his capture). Only Gar seemed to give a shit about him. No one else did. Dick saving him from darkness had no real emotional weight behind it. It's just something that happened because the writers want to push Dick into everything. And of course, we get a whole bunch of telling and not showing at the end of how Donna was this great person when they had two whole seasons to show how she was. The had two whole seasons to show these people as a family but they didn't. Everyone talks about how great the Titans are, about what they stand for, and we're never shown any of it.

    This show has a decent cast. It really does. I'd say they also got better directors this time around, But if they don't get a new writing staff and new editors it's going to keep getting worse.

  5. #1025
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    lol, how is Dick Grayson allowed to fight crime freely after he escaped prison? He’s a wanted criminal that the authorities should be looking for, and technically for Starfire and Raven too since they also illegally broke into the prison to free Dick. They sweep all that under the rug, and pretend that Dick isn’t a fugitive of the law. They could’ve even solved this issue with some throwaway dialogue that Dick would change his identity or something to Ric Grayson(like he does in the comics) but nope they just ignore this and pretend that this plot point didn’t happen. They booked him! They have his photo on file! They know what he looks like! They have his fingerprints!

    This should logically be an issue for the character that he feels he needs to solve but they ignore it because the writers were either too lazy or dumb to solve this problem.
    Last edited by Amadeus Arkham; 11-30-2019 at 10:12 AM.
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  6. #1026
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    To me, the biggest waste of this series is that it really does have an excellent cast, for the most part. Brathwaite, Walters, Leslie and Diop have all elevated terrible material. While Kelly, Ritchson and the rest have all been solid, if unremarkable.

    But no amount of acting can save this terrible, lazy, thoughtless writing. It's disrespectful to it's audience and to it's cast. There is a core to a really good Titans series in here, but it looks like we'll never get to see it.

  7. #1027
    Mighty Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    The biggest problem I think with the writing is that they just burnt through about 3-4 seasons worth of story within two seasons. Dick's darkness and redemption, Raven and Trigon, Superboy and Cadmus, and Starfire's story all deserve their own individual seasons. Instead everything was just thrown into a blender and put in these two seasons. Therefore characters get shortchanged instead having the full development they deserve.

    Honestly right now I'm trying to figure out how Dick's arc in season one even relates to season 2, because the timeline isn't clear at one. First season establishes Dick left Bruce Wayne because he felt his darkness was rubbing off on him. Didn't Dick, Donna and the others set up the Titans to do things on their own? Was he violent on that team? Was it after they broke off after Jericho's death? And how are those events even related to each other? They just feel like separate arcs that he went through without any having any real meaning. Dick's darkness and violence had no relation to his guilt of Jericho (because no matter how much this show tries, they're never going to convince me his death was completely Dick's fault). They were never any real consequences of that darkness. It was just there just because.

    That's how every story in these two seasons feels: just there because they need a show. All of those stories aren't connected narratively or thematically. Each one could have been taken apart and had its own message, theme and resolution and meaning for the characters. Instead Dick is the only one that gets development even if it's disjointed.

  8. #1028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post

    Honestly right now I'm trying to figure out how Dick's arc in season one even relates to season 2, because the timeline isn't clear at one. First season establishes Dick left Bruce Wayne because he felt his darkness was rubbing off on him. Didn't Dick, Donna and the others set up the Titans to do things on their own? Was he violent on that team? Was it after they broke off after Jericho's death? And how are those events even related to each other? They just feel like separate arcs that he went through without any having any real meaning. Dick's darkness and violence had no relation to his guilt of Jericho (because no matter how much this show tries, they're never going to convince me his death was completely Dick's fault). They were never any real consequences of that darkness. It was just there just because.
    Dick wasn't as violent on the Titans because he had friends he felt comfortable around. When Joey died and the Titans split up the uglier parts of his personality came up through the surface. Dick was just better at hiding them or didn't feel the need to reveal them when he was with the Titans. And the show acknowledged through Jericho that his death was Slade's fault not Dick's. As Donna pointed out, Dick often martyr's himself. He felt Jericho's death was his fault so he lied about the true circumstances.

    As for the stories and the number of seasons, it isn't like they can't give them new arcs. And in Kory's case her story isn't even done yet. It will be the main focus of season 3.

  9. #1029
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    ngl, I kinda wish this show was the one that got cancelled instead of Swamp Thing. I mean I still enjoy this show, but the more I think about it, the more I dislike it.

  10. #1030
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    How come Dick and Bruce don't give a shit about Jason? The kid feels abandon and betrayed and they don't seem to want to do anything about it.

  11. #1031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    How come Dick and Bruce don't give a shit about Jason? The kid feels abandon and betrayed and they don't seem to want to do anything about it.
    That was bizarre that it was never brought up at all. It’s a testament to how poorly written the show is that they just conveniently forget to mention Jason when that should be the first thing that’s brought up in a discussion between them. It was baffling. This show needs to fire some people.
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  12. #1032
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    I suppose there’s no better way to demonstrate that Jason’s feeling of abandonment and betrayal are legitimate than showing Bruce nor Dick give one single shit about him

  13. #1033
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenal View Post
    I suppose there’s no better way to demonstrate that Jason’s feeling of abandonment and betrayal are legitimate than showing Bruce nor Dick give one single shit about him
    And sadly, this a better transition to Death in the Family then the comics did. He has a legit reason to go off looking for a place to belong.

  14. #1034
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    I JUST knew they would mess it all up. I knew they would, but I did not expect it to be that bad.

    Boy was that absolutely terrible. Deathstroke--the big bad of this entire season--dies with the first 10 minutes of the episode in the most anti-climatic way possible. The fight choreography was good, but am I supposed to believe that Dick can suddenly now take on Slade on his own so easily because he's happy and has a new suit? The moment Slade stopped firing, Donna and Dawn should have got out of that car and helped him. But they just sat in the car and watched. Such heroes. Such a team. And Rose shows up out of nowhere and stabs Slade. A stab wound to the gut? Really? That entire talk of him being nearly unkillable and Rose kills him that easily.

    Jericho and Rose have never met or spoken before, and somehow they play it off like they had an agreement to join consciousness. Am I the only one who thinks it makes Jericho look absolutely selfish? They never spoke about this and he just went into her like it isn't a big deal. Nobody even talks about it again. All the drama about Dick feeling guilty for Jericho's death just stopped mattering.

    And that carnival fight. God that fight was just terrible all around. Where the hell did Dick and Rose go? Why were only the other girls there at first? Why did Dick to make some stupid dramatic entrance and how did Hank even get there? Speaking of, wasn't Gar specifically programmed to attack Rachel? What the hell happened to that? He just kinda growls at her? And Rachel kinda just do whatever the plot needs her to do. Then you have Dick using some kind of flashbang grenade on Conner, which seems to conveniently make him disappear for several minutes to so Dick can have a quippy conversation with the Titans, so they can all ninja away and get into positions, and come up with a plan with Rachel (who was not near them!) offscreen? Seriously what kind of shit writing is that? And why would the remaining crowd have even applauded after it? From their perspective, a wild alien tiger started murdering people, CADMUS sends a super-soldier in to protect them, only for weird costumed freaks to show up and convert him to the dark side.

    You can't convince me that Donna's death wasn't meant to be a joke. You just can't. Just a few minutes before it she fought Superboy and was barely hurt. How is anyone supposed to believe she can be killed by electrocution? Why didn't Superboy--the guy we just saw shoot a gun and move fast enough to catch the bullet--help her out? Was that really the best these writers could come up with? Why didn't die fighting Deathstroke (like in the past) or I don't know, die fighting Superboy? I've complained several times about this show trying to be dark, trying to be bold but never committing to it. Superboy just gets cured with deus ex machina powers. No tension, no real stakes. I'm sick of it.

    Dick and Bruce have multiple conversations in this episode, yet they don't even talk about Jason? About his PTSD and attempted suicide? About him leaving the team? Nobody talks about it? It's all just we're a happy family now? Speaking of, that entire theme was just forced. What did the Titans ever do for Rose? Them taking her in was part of Slade's plan. The OG Titans were suspicious of her, and the new ones didn't particularly care for her either. How are they her family? Second, what did the Titans ever do for Conner? Sure they saved his life after he saved Jason, but they abandoned him after that (which led to his capture). Only Gar seemed to give a shit about him. No one else did. Dick saving him from darkness had no real emotional weight behind it. It's just something that happened because the writers want to push Dick into everything. And of course, we get a whole bunch of telling and not showing at the end of how Donna was this great person when they had two whole seasons to show how she was. The had two whole seasons to show these people as a family but they didn't. Everyone talks about how great the Titans are, about what they stand for, and we're never shown any of it.

    This show has a decent cast. It really does. I'd say they also got better directors this time around, But if they don't get a new writing staff and new editors it's going to keep getting worse.
    All these complains are fair, I think; but it's not like it has been much different for most of the other episodes. To be ever fairer, it's a problem that you find in most of these fictions, when you stop and think about the whole logic. The trick is always to write or direct so that the audience doesn't break their inmersion, or don't have time to think about it all. With that in mind, this episode was average of the second half of this season. It wasn't as bad as the first one, or even the first three, for me. Those made me temporally drop Titans.


    I think the bit about ignoring the elephant that was Jason was for a reason, precisely, to drive him out and the to RH with a reason.

    Also, they need to select a few plots, just a few, and commit to them, not jumping between too many, giving them a messy closure.

    Overall, I don't think it was a bad episode by itself. Just, could've been a loooooooot better.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-01-2019 at 03:11 PM.
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  15. #1035
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    https://mobile.twitter.com/Vullein/s...30110151585792

    The writers are listening to fan feedback apparently.
    Last edited by Amadeus Arkham; 12-01-2019 at 03:42 PM.
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