Wonder Woman #21 - Discussion & Spoilers

[Nyssane]

I have to say that the femme fatale types of characters who are sexy are usually that because they compensate for their lack of physical power contra that of their opponent (ala Catwoman) or because it simply amuses them or suits their wiles (like Circe and Poison Ivy). (And ofc in comics there is the general issue of why female heroes and villains choose the skimpiest and often impractical outfits).

It may be that Ares uses his attractive appearance because it either amuses him or suits his wiles, too.

By contrast I think we don't see men in this position often because we blokes tend to be primitive enough to think that if we are outmatched, then we can just try and brute force our way out if we dont just curl up and hope it wont be so bad. And perhaps this whats most jarring of all, that this is the God of War... he's the prototypical man who thinks everything can be sorted out by breaking things. So it's the wrong character thats doing this... like Zeus being depicted as terrified of women.

I'd like to think war is a bit more nuanced than just "breaking things." War is seductive and enslaves its victims with promises of power. His new look perfectly depicts this in my opinion.

Brute force Ares is the least interesting version of the villain by far.

And I don't know, but while I know depiction of female and male heroes and villains often cater to the male fantasy... the women are sexy and the men are powerful. If this was to be sorted and balanced out, wouldn't it be more ideal for comics to start depicting characters (male and female) with more natural but varied body types rather than well... this?

In a perfect world, absolutely! I would *love* for there to be complete equality between the genders in comic book portrayals.

[Gaelforce]

It's interesting that a run that was supposed to build the new foundation for writers going forward is getting this sort of a reaction.

And I can go through the postings on most comics and cherry pick the one line that's negative as well. I don't find it 'interesting' at all, really, as I've never read a 'perfect' comic book or story in my life.

What's more interesting is that 14 out of 18 people on this thread give it 4 or 5 stars while only a single person gives it 1 or 2.

[Vanguard-01]

And I can go through the postings on most comics and cherry pick the one line that's negative as well. I don't find it 'interesting' at all, really, as I've never read a 'perfect' comic book or story in my life.

What's more interesting is that 14 out of 18 people on this thread give it 4 or 5 stars while only a single person gives it 1 or 2.

Add one more for the 4-star category! I loved this issue!

Others have pretty well summarized my thoughts. I agree that Poison was a little lackluster. Hopefully other writers won't forget about her and will find ways to make her more relevant. Cheetah? I totally get it. A combination of feeling abandoned and the corrupting nature of the Cheetah power is driving her insane. She's not rational right now, so her attitude makes sense.

Loved seeing Diana smacking down Poison. Love that Ares is back to looking like a Greek god again. Love that Diana's world is back to what it should be.

[sakuyamons]

And I can go through the postings on most comics and cherry pick the one line that's negative as well. I don't find it 'interesting' at all, really, as I've never read a 'perfect' comic book or story in my life.

What's more interesting is that 14 out of 18 people on this thread give it 4 or 5 stars while only a single person gives it 1 or 2.

I think that overall the run has been a success, which is a good thing.

Doesn't anybody think it's kinda weird that Ares is always interested in blonde teenage girls, though?

[Dr. Poison]

I liked Trevor, but just not as Diana's boyfriend but yeah I agree with you there. Rucka's first run is my second favorite and I'd say that Cale was the weak part of his run while on this one she got real character development. Hell, I'm sure even in the Perez run you could find things that people didn't like.

Other than Poison not doing much, I like the Rogues gallery a lot imo.

I would have liked Trevor Barnes more if he was just a friend of Diana's. He just didn't make good boyfriend material for her IMO.

[Dr. Poison]

You are being very unprecise about what good most of these actually did

Here you go:


Jimenez - Gave Diana a stellar supporting cast(Donna, Cassie, Harbinger, Fury), revitalized several of WW's rogues including Queen Clea, Giganta, & Silver Swan, gave us an awesome all female hero & villain team-up story, & showed how powerful Diana was when she took down a Circe possessed Superman.

Heinberg - Fleshed out the returned Diana Prince ID, reinvented many long-MIA Wonder-rogues, put Diana in her best relationship(w/Nemesis) since Steve Trevor, and showed how selfless Diana was.

Simone - Continued Heinberg's set-up, gave us the awesome "The Circe" story, and a cool story where Diana fought Captain Nazi.

Finch - Returned variety to Wonder Woman's book instead of it being 24/7 mythology, brought back Donna Troy, Ares, & Apollo, and gave us a fun Cheetah story.

[Outside_85]

It may be that Ares uses his attractive appearance because it either amuses him or suits his wiles, too.

It could indeed... I just dont think he's the kind of character that would.

I'd like to think war is a bit more nuanced than just "breaking things." War is seductive and enslaves its victims with promises of power. His new look perfectly depicts this in my opinion.

Brute force Ares is the least interesting version of the villain by far.

And in terms of myth... thats what Athena was there for, she was the clever war god, Ares was the fighting war god who was a bit of a chump. Aside that, your description is not really the match I have in my head when you say war seduces with promises of power. Thats the Perez Ares appearing before a warrior and in a booming voice demands somekind of feat performed in his honor to get a trinket or other boon.

Thats true... but casting him as a pretty silver tongued devil is fundamentally wrong.

In a perfect world, absolutely! I would *love* for there to be complete equality between the genders in comic book portrayals.

Sadly we aren't currently living in one.

Here you go:

Jimenez - Gave Diana a stellar supporting cast(Donna, Cassie, Harbinger, Fury), revitalized several of WW's rogues including Queen Clea, Giganta, & Silver Swan, gave us an awesome all female hero & villain team-up story, & showed how powerful Diana was when she took down a Circe possessed Superman.

He didn't create any of the supports, but fair enough for being the first to bring them all together.

Heinberg - Fleshed out the returned Diana Prince ID, reinvented many long-MIA Wonder-rogues, put Diana in her best relationship(w/Nemesis) since Steve Trevor, and showed how selfless Diana was.

Werent most of the reinventions just a cameo and the ones who did things were the same who had been used for the previous 20 years?
I would however argue the Diana Prince, secret agent, was a mistake... a reinvention of the Kung Fu era that should have remained buried.

Simone - Continued Heinberg's set-up, gave us the awesome "The Circe" story, and a cool story where Diana fought Captain Nazi.

Sort of continues the theme of the Amazons only every really getting interesting when you add some darkness to them. Captain Nazi... well it wasn't the fight that was great about that.

Finch - Returned variety to Wonder Woman's book instead of it being 24/7 mythology, brought back Donna Troy, Ares, & Apollo, and gave us a fun Cheetah story.

I'm kinda surprised you'd say returning Ares and Apollo to life was a good thing. As for Cheetah... wasn't this yet another example of how inept Finch's Diana was when Cheetah could get onto the island, murder a bunch of Amazons and then slip away without being apprehended?

[Gaelforce]

Just a word of caution and a reminder.

WW 21 discussion

Let's not go off the rails in discussing/debating the nuances of past runs in this thread, please.

[Mel Dyer]

Great issue...everything here, but, Giganta.

[Qwerty]

Hate Sharp's art but love Martin's colors. I'm so glad this story is almost over and Rucka will be gone soon. Though I do love the God Watch storyline.

[DCMARVELgeek]

I cannot with Ares looking like Zac Efron. Nope. Wonder Woman is a beautiful-inside-and-outside hero of purity, courage, and love. Ares should be ugly and scary-looking as the ultimate incarnation of the evils and horrors of war. I want my blueish-armor-clad faceless red-eyed monstrosity back!!!

[Koriand'r]

I honestly haven't been this pleased with Wonder Woman since Greg Rucka's last run, nothing else compares or even comes close. Rebirth feels like we're in a new golden age with endless possibilities. It's built on a solid foundation that's engaging and contemporary, yet finally true to Marston's vision of the character.

All that needs to be done going forward is a strict adherence to this template. There's super-heroics, science fiction, mythology, humor, suspense, mystery and gravitas, presented with a progressive political point of view, that's not at all preachy or off putting. For me this is perfection and I wouldn't change a thing.

[Dr. Poison]

I cannot with Ares looking like Zac Efron. Nope. Wonder Woman is a beautiful-inside-and-outside hero of purity, courage, and love. Ares should be ugly and scary-looking as the ultimate incarnation of the evils and horrors of war. I want my blueish-armor-clad faceless red-eyed monstrosity back!!!

I think the version of Ares that we saw in this issue was the one you mentioned just without his armor on.

[Scott Taylor]

I honestly haven't been this pleased with Wonder Woman since Greg Rucka's last run, nothing else compares or even comes close. Rebirth feels like we're in a new golden age with endless possibilities. It's built on a solid foundation that's engaging and contemporary, yet finally true to Marston's vision of the character.

Same for me.

Rucka's Wonder Woman is all about seeking understanding, seeking peace, and making sacrifices for the greater good. Plus he shows rather than tells, which is my preferred storytelling method because it leaves a lot up to the reader's imagination. Plus I feel that he is really honoring Marston's take on the Amazons, which is foundational for any WW book in my estimation.

[marhawkman]

I agree on Savage, of the later periods where he appears in grand ball rooms and such... not quite sure about the Demon Knights Savage however since that seemed to be more about his boasting and rugged charms that made him attractive, since he otherwise looked like a brigand, which he also was.

Lobo... I don't think I would use the word handsome for him, likewise I think the ladies he does attract are of a certain taste, plus I can't imagine Lobo has anything less than a powerful odor around him considering how many cigars he smokes and how many times he wakes up with a hangover in a backalley somewhere before heading back to the bar. But then again, I suspect that when Giffen took over and made Lobo what he is now, he took a very long look at Lemmy Kilmister, who also had a very personal dress sense, facial warts, could drink a bottle of Jack D a night between gigs, smoked, had a condition that meant he mumbled a lot when he was just having a normal conversation... and somehow still managed to attract more women than just about any other musician.

I kinda think that sort of thing is the inspiration for the original Lobo look too.