Black Canary as a fighter - where does she rate?

[daBronzeBomma]

Who can she easily beat?

Who can she just barely beat?

Who is a dead-even draw for her?

Who can narrowly beat her?

Who can't she beat without PIS (where does the line start)?

Standard settings. Within the DCU and MU, heroes and villians, from human henches up to low-level metas. Standard skills, powers and paraphernalia allowed for both combatants.

[HFMM]

I don't know much about the current Black Canary, but the one that I used to read about, had the respect of Lady Shiva. So much, that Lady Shiva consider her worthy as a student/foe. Their love/hate relationship are often amusing, since Lady Shiva tends to force feed Black Canary some of her techniques. Lady Shiva is also a habitual line stepper. In attempt to keep her from crossing those lines, Black Canary often threaten to kill her. Which only seem to encourage Shiva.


1. her husband.. more often then not
2. Bruce Wayne
3. Bruce Wayne
4. Bruce Wayne
5. Fat Cobra

[Sharpandpointies]

Regarding Shiva, yeah, she thought Canary was good enough to be worth teaching. She also liked Canary, personally. How things are in DC now, I have no idea, so here I'm just talking Post-Crisis, Pre-Nu Canary.

No powers? Just hand to hand?

1. Agreed, she absolutely manhandled Oliver Queen, who is a pretty decent comic book martial artist. Was a hilarious 'fight'.
2. Not sure.
3. Probably Dick Grayson, back when.
4. Bruce. He should beat her, but he's going to work for it.
5. Get into the Cassandra Cain range, and Canary gets stomped. Heck, Daredevil should clean up on her. Constantine Drakon. Etc.

With powers? Things change drastically, because it's not really about 'fighting skill' at that point. Canary's cry was strong enough stop speeding vans as if they had run into a stone cliff, blow up tanks, etc. If she can get the cry off, she can pretty much waste any non-protected, non-meta person by hitting them with the directed 'cone' version (which is the one that stopped the van dead, so it's good protection for her at the same time).

[daBronzeBomma]

How things are in DC now, I have no idea, so here I'm just talking Post-Crisis, Pre-Nu Canary.

With powers? Things change drastically, because it's not really about 'fighting skill' at that point. Canary's cry was strong enough stop speeding vans as if they had run into a stone cliff, blow up tanks, etc. If she can get the cry off, she can pretty much waste any non-protected, non-meta person by hitting them with the directed 'cone' version (which is the one that stopped the van dead, so it's good protection for her at the same time).

Ok, lets stay here:

Dinah Lance vs Cassandra Cain, standard rumbles settings with the following caveats:

Both Post-COIE/Pre-New52 versions as legit metahumans.

Both with their then-standard powers, skills and gear.

Still a curbstomp for Cass?

[Beadle]

IMHO, if Cass was unarmed, Dinah would AoE the crap out of her before Cass could close the distance. But giving Cass standard gear, I guess that means a bat-utility belt with her own AoE/ranged stuff. In which case, she's considerably faster than Dinah, so... yeah. Still a stomp.

[Sharpandpointies]

My one issue with it being a stomp for Cass is that if Dinah can avoid the first thrown device, or start screaming before it actually reaches her (it's THROWN, not fired), then she's fine. Anything flying into that wall of sound - Bat-grenade, Batarang - isn't making it to Dinah, not based on what it has done, and that same 'protection' will also be messing up Cass something fierce, even at 100'.

So...maybe not?

On the other hand, Cass has some ridiculous throwing feats and so forth...no, make it closer and she ruins Dinah's day, but at 100' range I'm iffy on Cass being able to toss something that'll reach/take out Dinah before she opens her mouth and screams. Certainly Cass can't reach her before that.

I suppose Cass could slap in her Bat-earplugs or whatever they have (they do have those) and keep her distance, chucking stuff at Dinah all the while. The Cry does have a certain range where it's not exactly going to bust her up.

[Carabas]

IMHO, if Cass was unarmed, Dinah would AoE the crap out of her before Cass could close the distance. But giving Cass standard gear, I guess that means a bat-utility belt with her own AoE/ranged stuff. In which case, she's considerably faster than Dinah, so... yeah. Still a stomp.

Cass uses her utility belt exclusively to keep her Bat-pants up. She has no Utility belt feats.

But the thread specifies Dinah as a fighter. No screaming or AoE stuff seems heavily implied.

[Sharpandpointies]

From the OP:

Standard skills, powers and paraphernalia allowed for both combatants.

Also from the OP:

Dinah Lance vs Cassandra Cain, standard rumbles settings with the following caveats:

Both Post-COIE/Pre-New52 versions as legit metahumans.

Both with their then-standard powers, skills and gear.

Still a curbstomp for Cass?

To which Beadle answered.

Also, Cass does occasionally throw stuff. With PIS-off and Bloodlust, I don't have a problem with her going into a little bit more detail with the bat-belt.

[The Dork Knight]

Black Canary has little to suggest she'll be too much trouble for Bruce other than statements. She was also taken out pretty quickly by Shrike whom a tired/hung upside down for hours Grayson then dispatched with aplomb

[Tanrage]

With powers? Things change drastically, because it's not really about 'fighting skill' at that point. Canary's cry was strong enough stop speeding vans as if they had run into a stone cliff, blow up tanks, etc. If she can get the cry off, she can pretty much waste any non-protected, non-meta person by hitting them with the directed 'cone' version (which is the one that stopped the van dead, so it's good protection for her at the same time).

For shame! Val wojuld get the Canary cry in a leg lock and force it to make him dinner because Space Karateq

[Yeoman]

For shame! Val wojuld get the Canary cry in a leg lock and force it to make him dinner because Space Karateq

It's not space karate. It's Super Karate. Because you had to have a super power to join the Legion.

I imagine the conversation went like this:

Lightning Lad: Man, he doesn't even have any powers. Charter says we dump his *** with the subs.

Saturn Girl: He winded Superboy with a punch.

LL: Doesn't matter. Not a power.

Cosmic Boy: He's got Super Karate.

LL: That's not a thing.

CB: He. Has. Super. Karate.