Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation

[Wiccan]

I don't think I agree that DPS is more from Scott's POV. I can see that being true for the beginning where Jean is Black Queen(and that's only when she has actually turned into Black Queen, cause before when she's starting to get those visions from Mastermind, it's also her POV) and then at the end when she dies, but I'd say the main chunk of the story is Jean's.

[phoenixzero23]

The DPS is almost all about Jean, Scott is important but Jean is the protagonist. It was her struggle, her fight, her sacrifice. Scott was there supporting her and fighting everything to be there for her (i loved that, it was so romantic) and yes mourning at the end (but what should he do, forget about her??).

Also yeah, marvel crapped hard on jean and jott when they pushed scemma. i will give you that.

[Gray Lensman]

The Dark Phoenix Saga is Jean's story. Scott is the primary supporting character in it, and the aftermath is about him, but DPS should be about Jean.

[MechaJeanix]

The DPS is almost all about Jean, Scott is important but Jean is the protagonist. It was her struggle, her fight, her sacrifice. Scott was there supporting her and fighting everything to be there for her (i loved that, it was so romantic) and yes mourning at the end (but what should he do, forget about her??).

Also yeah, marvel crapped hard on jean and jott when they pushed scemma. i will give you that.

I think my biggest problem with them right now is all the years where Scott and others dumped on Jean and their relationship. It soured me. I will always have a soft spot for them, but this mess has been a big hurdle to get over.

Do you all recall when Jean died in New X-men where an editor wrote back to a fan that the saga of Scott and Jean was far from over? Well over the years it certainly felt over. In fact that are still over and we are left to speculate if they may end up together again. They definitely have us on the hook!

[Ulfhammer]

I think my biggest problem with them right now is all the years where Scott and others dumped on Jean and their relationship. It soured me. I will always have a soft spot for them, but this mess has been a big hurdle to get over.

Do you all recall when Jean died in New X-men where an editor wrote back to a fan that the saga of Scott and Jean was far from over? Well over the years it certainly felt over. In fact that are still over and we are left to speculate if they may end up together again. They definitely have us on the hook!

I understand your feelings completely. I have to say this but if it was Scott put through the crucible of the phoenix instead of Jean I'd be salty as all hell. That said, Scott also took the fall at the opening of X-Factor to allow Marvel to have their OTP again. There's puts and takes on both sides, but I'm willing to admit that Scott probably benefited more than he lost... until Morrison, then he lost everything. Let's be clear on one thing. Most readers look at this ship and judge Scott much more harshly than Jean. So Jean's alive, Scott's dead and his also Hitler. Do you really think he ended up ahead of the game?

[Ulfhammer]

The Dark Phoenix Saga is Jean's story. Scott is the primary supporting character in it, and the aftermath is about him, but DPS should be about Jean.

I'd just modify that slightly to say that the Phoenix Saga was Jean's story, the DPS was Jean and Scott's and the aftermath was the fall of Cyclops.

[Abbz_A]

JDW's comments might be much less controversial then it appears at first glance. Ultimately he's suggesting that the buildup is better than the payoff. Regardless of whether you agree or not, I think his POV is very applicable to Jott.

Let's inject some comparative analysis into this question.

Jean and Scott originally met in a publication in 1963. The characters married in 1994. That's a period of 31 publication years that the characters were functionally in a "will they or won't they mode". Yes I'm including early Silver Age because their feelings for each other seemed to materialize almost right out the gate, even though nothing of consequence happened for the first few dozen issues.

So that's 31 years, but Jean wasn't alive for all of those years so we should discount the years from 1980 (UXM 137) through 1986 (XF 1). That leaves us with 26 years of publication history together prior to marriage. That's still not the whole story though since UXM was in reprints from 1970 (UXM 67) to 1975 (GSXM 1). That leaves us with 21 years of shared publication history before the marriage.

Now, let's compare that to their post-marriage publication history. That would cover 1994 (XM 30) through 2004 (NXM 154) so that's about 10 years or 32% of the whole relationship span. So, Jott was in relationship drama for about 21 years, but the payoff only lasted 10 years. The vast majority of what we recall of the ship occurred during the 21 years prior to XM 30. I would also argue that the majority of Jott's best stories were already told by the time XM 30 came around. Yes we had the AoC&P (1994), FAoC&P (1996) OZT aftermath (1997), SfC (2000), ect. but most of those came quickly following the marriage and likely didn't carry the same weight as the mid Silver Age issues, DPS or early X-Factor\X-Men vol 1 issues.

This basic analysis tells me that the majority of what I actually like about Jott falls under what JDW would consider the "less boring stage" of the relationship. There's two implications here that I think are worth noting.

1. If Marvel takes the next decade to decide that they want Jean and Scott to re-marry, or even become a serious couple again that will be at least as fast, if not faster then it occurred the first time around, potentially way faster.
2. JDW may actually be right when it comes to the appeal of shipping drama in that the vast majority of Jott's most iconic arcs or issues occurred prior to them being married. When I say positive, I mean issues that developed, not deconstructed the couple. NXM 139 is an iconic issue in the history of Jott, but it's not positive so I'm not counting it.

Now this in no way contemplates what could have happened if Jott wasn't dissolved in 2004. Maybe many more great stories would have occurred afterwards, but the body of evidence over their entire history leads me to believe that the more time that past, the less frequently iconic Jott stories appeared. This was likely effected by the writers and their desire to write these kinds of stories. Perhaps the feeling even before Morrison was that Jott was running out of steam. Certainly that had to be the case in some Marvel minds at the time, to allow Morrison to do what he did.

Here's the point of all this. JDW may be correctly assuming that us Jott fans will actually get more out of the comics if they don't rush into anything like a quick resolution. In fact, the numbers above support that and also show that Jott has never been a quick moving ship. Of course this doesn't consider the trajectory of the relationship. Maybe it's becoming fast moving given how slow it was to peak in the past. Regardless, JDW has a point and it's one that's hard to dismiss in Jott's case.

Hahah I do love that u added math and stats. U win.

Whereas, I see where JDW is coming from.. I think, Will They/ Won’t They drama will have repetitive stories. Moreover, the staff are hinting on possible love triangle which has been done before, so the drama isn’t a new type of drama. It feels redundant and I want something new.

Now, Jott as married couples, we haven’t read much stories with them as couples ... So I assume there’s lot of new stories to tell.

The people in charge are trying to great drama to boost ... sales(?), maybe and I can understand it but I don’t not wish for a repetitive story. I wouldn’t mind them re-building Jott story, since y’all mentioned how some previous writers decided to take a dump on Jott even though all their past history together points the other way, but inconsistency is Marvels forte lol

I enjoyed Scemmas stories ...since it lacked Love Triangles and the mess the new staff are trying to pull on Jott. Jott has been dead for 15 years, it’s time to resurrect it.

Gimme a beautiful love story, Marvel lol

[Legaldrugdealer]

For those who have read the exterminated I'm confused by this remark in this panel
Screenshot_20181206-161131_Marvel Comics.jpg
When does this take place? Were Scott and Maddy having marital problems before x-factor?

[FUBAR007]

For those who have read the exterminated I'm confused by this remark in this panel
Screenshot_20181206-161131_Marvel Comics.jpg
When does this take place? Were Scott and Maddy having marital problems before x-factor?

Roughly speaking, it takes place between Uncanny X-Men #201 and X-Factor #1.

Yes, they were having problems before X-Factor. Scott wanted to resume leadership of the X-Men; Madelyne wanted him to go with her and Nathan back to Alaska. In #201, he had a Danger Room duel with Storm for the leader role, and he lost. So, he went back to Alaska. Then in X-Factor #1, he found out Jean was alive.

[Gray Lensman]

Roughly speaking, it takes place between Uncanny X-Men #201 and X-Factor #1.

Yes, they were having problems before X-Factor. Scott wanted to resume leadership of the X-Men; Madelyne wanted him to go with her and Nathan back to Alaska. In #201, he had a Danger Room duel with Storm for the leader role, and he lost. So, he went back to Alaska. Then in X-Factor #1, he found out Jean was alive.

Which always struck me as odd. Being an X-Man is a large part of why things didn't work out with Lee Forrester, yet he is suddenly willing to stop now?

[FUBAR007]

Which always struck me as odd. Being an X-Man is a large part of why things didn't work out with Lee Forrester, yet he is suddenly willing to stop now?

It was later revealed/retconned in "Inferno" that Madelyne was subconsciously putting a telepathic whammy on Scott so he'd lose the duel with Storm and go back to Alaska.

Lee wouldn't commit to Scott because his superhero life scared her. Which is ironic because she later dated Magneto, and then ultimately ended up living with Skull the Slayer on an alien planet.

[Ulfhammer]

Hahah I do love that u added math and stats. U win.

Whereas, I see where JDW is coming from.. I think, Will They/ Won’t They drama will have repetitive stories. Moreover, the staff are hinting on possible love triangle which has been done before, so the drama isn’t a new type of drama. It feels redundant and I want something new.

Now, Jott as married couples, we haven’t read much stories with them as couples ... So I assume there’s lot of new stories to tell.

The people in charge are trying to great drama to boost ... sales(?), maybe and I can understand it but I don’t not wish for a repetitive story. I wouldn’t mind them re-building Jott story, since y’all mentioned how some previous writers decided to take a dump on Jott even though all their past history together points the other way, but inconsistency is Marvels forte lol

I enjoyed Scemmas stories ...since it lacked Love Triangles and the mess the new staff are trying to pull on Jott. Jott has been dead for 15 years, it’s time to resurrect it.

Gimme a beautiful love story, Marvel lol

I think part of the difference of opinion is exactly what kind of relationship drama we're talking about. Your calling it repetitive and I think that's certainly possible, but it's not inevitable. Nearly all of the first 40 odd issues of X-Factor featured some kind of Jott relationship drama but for the most part it was handled well. There were no triangles or affairs. It was drama, but the good kind. I can't see this ship sailing again without Scott and Jean overcoming certain things, and that's the kind of drama I actually want to read. I don't want it to go on forever, but if it's too easy for them, I'm afraid it will feel unearned.

[Abbz_A]

I think part of the difference of opinion is exactly what kind of relationship drama we're talking about. Your calling it repetitive and I think that's certainly possible, but it's not inevitable. Nearly all of the first 40 odd issues of X-Factor featured some kind of Jott relationship drama but for the most part it was handled well. There were no triangles or affairs. It was drama, but the good kind. I can't see this ship sailing again without Scott and Jean overcoming certain things, and that's the kind of drama I actually want to read.I don't want it to go on forever, but if it's too easy for them, I'm afraid it will feel unearned.

Yea, this is what I want too. I want the good drama, no third party involved as in love triangles and affairs. It’s been done and it made all three involved look like jerks and brought nothing but distaste for the ship.

I’m up for a good drama and struggle the ship has to go through but well written. Unfortunately, marvel hasn’t given me a reason to believe in their stories. It’s been stale and stagnant for a long time, especially their romantic stories.

I sound like a huge pessimist

[phoenixzero23]

For those who have read the exterminated I'm confused by this remark in this panel
Screenshot_20181206-161131_Marvel Comics.jpg
When does this take place? Were Scott and Maddy having marital problems before x-factor?

Well, while i like Scott he does have a tendency to make drama for everything and complicate things too much. This was probably just him being conflicted about fatherhood given his own complicated relationship with Corsair. I don't think at the moment he had any problem with maddie, they seemed happy at the end.

[FUBAR007]

I think part of the difference of opinion is exactly what kind of relationship drama we're talking about. Your calling it repetitive and I think that's certainly possible, but it's not inevitable. Nearly all of the first 40 odd issues of X-Factor featured some kind of Jott relationship drama but for the most part it was handled well. There were no triangles or affairs. It was drama, but the good kind. I can't see this ship sailing again without Scott and Jean overcoming certain things, and that's the kind of drama I actually want to read. I don't want it to go on forever, but if it's too easy for them, I'm afraid it will feel unearned.

It needs to be organic and not contrived. It needs to feel "lived in." They can't just pick up as if nothing happened, but they can't act like two strangers to each other, either. Both would ring false.

I can see them getting back together in a formal sense fairly quickly, but their relationship being somewhat tentative for a while. In other words, the drama starts with their reunion; it doesn't end with it. The drama is in watching them pick up the pieces and gradually glue their relationship back together. The relationship itself is a process, not an outcome.