Jean & Scott- The Phoenix & Cyclops Appreciation

[Starrius]

Is that any surprise. I'd wager that the majority of noncomic reading moviegoers preferred Jogan over Jott. I was reading message boards saying that when the first movie came out. Saying the people in the theatre they were in wanted Jean with Logan. I was like, ya think? As always, not one real Jott conversation the entire movie. What do you think the audience is going to want?

I like Peter/MJ very much. Hadn't been in my top couple, but probably top 5. I also liked Peter/Gwen. When I first read comics it was a bunch of older issues. A lot of that was Peter with Gwen. Then I read new issues and that was not long after Gwen died. Then he got involved with MJ.

In my mind, you could like both of them. The second was not built on the ashes of the first. You didn't take a dump on the first to create the second which is how I felt about Scemma vs Jott. Whatever floats your boat, to each his own, but I remain somewhat mystified how a self professed Jott fan could like Scemma. Whatever works for you, I guess.

SINS PAST. Now there is a story I found almost as distasteful as what Morrison did to Jott. Another example of to hell with the integrity of the characters, whatever creates a buzz.

I was never really a TITANS reader so that Dick relationship I have no real investment in. I read with him and Barbara back when she was still Oracle. No huge investment there, though. Favorite DC couple easy was Lois and Clark. However, I didn't read nearly as many DC books.

I really didn't care for the X-Men movies much. I really wanted to see a Scott/Jean romance in it, and that never happened. It was so Wolverine-centered.
What annoyed me the most is when Scott got killed off early in the 3rd movie by Jean. That's ridiculous! Jean wouldn't have killed Scott. Then she ended up killing Xavier too. Of course, Wolverine had to be the hero and kill Jean.
I really didn't see any chemistry between Scott and Jean. They casted a woman a decade older than Scott. She was taller than him. They casted a tall man that was closer to actress' age to be Wolverine. That all led to Wolverine/Jean having a lot more chemistry than Scott/Jean.


Mary Jane wasn't even meant to be the love of Peter's life. It was Gwen Stacy that was supposed to be the love of his life. Stan Lee wanted Gwen to be the woman that Peter eventually marries. What's amusing is that he unintentionally made Mary Jane a lot more popular and interesting than Gwen. Most fans wanted Mary Jane to be the girlfriend. Gwen got killed off not long after her father got killed, and that led to Mary Jane to becoming Peter's girlfriend.

Sins Past was messed up. It made Gwen look bad - her having sex with Norman Osborne. It made Mary Jane look bad - keeping Gwen's secret from Peter.
I read that the original plan was for Gwen's twin children to be Peter's, but Quesada was against it. He thought it would make Peter look too old, and so he had Norman be the father of Gwen's twin children.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

I really didn't care for the X-Men movies much. I really wanted to see a Scott/Jean romance in it, and that never happened. It was so Wolverine-centered.
What annoyed me the most is when Scott got killed off early in the 3rd movie by Jean. That's ridiculous! Jean wouldn't have killed Scott. Then she ended up killing Xavier too. Of course, Wolverine had to be the hero and kill Jean.
I really didn't see any chemistry between Scott and Jean. They casted a woman a decade older than Scott. She was taller than him. They casted a tall man that was closer to actress' age to be Wolverine. That all led to Wolverine/Jean having a lot more chemistry than Scott/Jean.


Mary Jane wasn't even meant to be the love of Peter's life. It was Gwen Stacy that was supposed to be the love of his life. Stan Lee wanted Gwen to be the woman that Peter eventually marries. What's amusing is that he unintentionally made Mary Jane a lot more popular and interesting than Gwen. Most fans wanted Mary Jane to be the girlfriend. Gwen got killed off not long after her father got killed, and that led to Mary Jane to becoming Peter's girlfriend.

Sins Past was messed up. It made Gwen look bad - her having sex with Norman Osborne. It made Mary Jane look bad - keeping Gwen's secret from Peter.
I read that the original plan was for Gwen's twin children to be Peter's, but Quesada was against it. He thought it would make Peter look too old, and so he had Norman be the father of Gwen's twin children.

I fucking HATE Sins Past it’s the worst thing Marvel’s ever done

[phoenixzero23]

at least sins past and one more day didn't destroy the relationships or characters involved. I read people complaining about them but i'm freaking jealous of one more day.

[JeisonWolf]

I definitely have read a lot of comics of them as a couple.


I mentioned a lot of stuff about them in my essay, Addressing Misconceptions about Dick/Kory Fanbase



stuff that I typed about Peter/Mary Jane:


My favorite comic book couple of all time is Peter Parker (Spider-Man)/Mary Jane Watson, and they're one of the most popular and iconic couples in comic book history. There was a time that Mary Jane was out of comics when Dick and Kory were each other's love interests and was not in a relationship with Peter when Dick and Kory were in a relationship. Mary Jane turned down Peter's marriage proposal and left him in 1979. During the time that Mary Jane was out of comics, Peter had other love interests including especially Felicia Hardy (Black Cat) who was his relationship partner when Mary Jane was brought back in comics in The Amazing Spider-Man, Volume 1, issue #238 published March 1982. It was 1982 when Dick and Kory became an official couple in The New Teen Titans, Volume 1 issue #26 that was published on December 1982. In that issue, Dick revealed to Kory that he does have romantic love feelings for her after the aftermath of Teen Titans' attempt to rescue Kory from Kory's sister Komand'r (Blackfire) and the Citadel who had made Kory a slave for 5 or 6 years , and they were depicted as going out on dates for a few weeks with their first onpanel date being Dick and Kory going to a Broadway show. Peter broke up with Felicia in Peter Parker,The Spectacular Spider-Man Volume 1, #100 published March 1985. Therefore, Peter was still in a relationship with Felicia even after Mary Jane came back into his life. In Spider-Man Versus Wolverine published on February 1987, Peter and Mary Jane realized that they were deceiving themselves about the depth of their feelings for each other and that they were very much in love.
Peter and Mary Jane didn't get back into a relationship until they got married in The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21 published September 1987. They got married and became one of the greatest comic book couples of all time with a marriage that lasted 20 years.
Just one month before that in August 1987, The New Teen Titans Volume 2, Issue #34 had Dick and Kory resuming their relationship after Dick broke up with her because he didn't want to be with her while she was in a marriage of state with Prince Karras to prevent a civil war that would save millions of lives on Tamaran in The New Teen Titans Volume 2, Issue #18 published on March 1986. Dick and Kory got back together after 17 months apart even though they were still in love with each other, and the issue #34 with a very happy Kory flying herself and Dick high into the night time sky ending with the very last page with them in an embrace and romantic kiss against the background of starlit sky. I believe that it is one of the most iconic romantic scenes in comics, and so I had to show it to you. I am convinced that Dick/Kory was not far behind Peter/Mary Jane in popularity at the time. I came to the conclusion that Dick/Kory was to DC that Peter/Mary Jane was to Marvel at the time.

In New Titans issue #114 published in September 1994, Dick was waiting for Kory to come see and talk with him but she never showed up as she didn't want Dick confusing things after thinking her life is no longer on Earth even though she still loves him more than he knows. The whole thing reminds me of Marvel's former Editor in Chief Joe Quesada's written One Moment in Time story with Mary Jane leaves Peter which was supposed to explain what happened after One More Day when Peter and Mary Jane's marriage was undone by Mephisto and was apart for 11 years. Mary Jane was written to be weak and that she couldn't deal with Peter Parker being Spider-Man any more. I was afraid that Joe Quesada was going to come up with a retcon that Mary Jane cheated on Peter with her ex-boyfriend Bruce the night before Peter and Mary Jane got married. A few months ago, Nick Spencer brought Peter and Mary Jane back together as a couple in The Amazing Spider-Man issue #1. As a fan that created a facebook page for Peter and Mary Jane's relationship, that makes me very happy. During the period that Dick and Kory's relationship turned into a disaster in August 1993 and they completely ended in September 1994, Peter and Mary Jane had their own problems. Peter had sworn to Mary Jane that he would give up being Spider-Man for awhile and he went back on his word, and Mary Jane was upset about that. Peter was acting all neurotic with his sense of responsibility as Spider-Man, and Mary Jane was stressing out over Peter being Spider-Man and had a cigarette addiction. Her acting career was falling apart. In a comic book page, Mary Jane thinks that Peter didn't come home last night, and she thinks that most wives worry about infidelity but Peter is Spider-Man - he could be dead. Liz kicked Peter and Mary Jane out of their loft. Peter's parents came back into his life, but they end up being androids. After he loses his fake parents, Peter is driven with rage and vengeance and pushes Mary Jane away. May ends up sick in the hospital, and Peter goes nuts that he webs himself up in a cocoon so he cannot be reached. This was heading up into the Death of Aunt May in Amazing Spider-Man issue #400 and the infamous Clone Saga that so many Spider-Man fans hated including me. The only things that I liked about it was Ben Reilly and Mary Jane demonstrating great loyalty and faithfulness as Peter's wife even when Peter was believed to be the clone to the point that she was willing to let Peter kill her when he was under the Jackal's programming which she helped him break. I read those comics when I was in my 20s in the 1990s. Like Dick and Kory, Peter and Mary Jane had their ups and downs with serious problems. There are no comic couples that have perfect relationships. Comic books have quite the soapy element to them. As a person that loves to watch soap operas on television, I actually enjoy that. I just don't care for the love triangles and my favorite characters killed off. When Mary Jane was killed off in an airplane accident in 1999, I couldn't bear reading Spider-Man comics any more.

yeah I like Dick and Kory and it's really sad to see what DC is currently doing with them. they give us to understand that Kory always loved Dick but that Dick never really love her and that really sucks.

As for Peter and MJ, thank you for giving me a summary of their story, I remember (even though it was a long time ago so I may be wrong) that in the Spiderman series I really feel bad when they said that MJ was clone and she died or disappeared or something, even though in the end it seems that Peter went to look for the real MJ (that's maked me happy). but now, as I understand, they have become a couple again, that's a really good thing.

[JeisonWolf]

Is that any surprise. I'd wager that the majority of noncomic reading moviegoers preferred Jogan over Jott. I was reading message boards saying that when the first movie came out. Saying the people in the theatre they were in wanted Jean with Logan. I was like, ya think? As always, not one real Jott conversation the entire movie. What do you think the audience is going to want?

I like Peter/MJ very much. Hadn't been in my top couple, but probably top 5. I also liked Peter/Gwen. When I first read comics it was a bunch of older issues. A lot of that was Peter with Gwen. Then I read new issues and that was not long after Gwen died. Then he got involved with MJ.

In my mind, you could like both of them. The second was not built on the ashes of the first. You didn't take a dump on the first to create the second which is how I felt about Scemma vs Jott. Whatever floats your boat, to each his own, but I remain somewhat mystified how a self professed Jott fan could like Scemma. Whatever works for you, I guess.

SINS PAST. Now there is a story I found almost as distasteful as what Morrison did to Jott. Another example of to hell with the integrity of the characters, whatever creates a buzz.

I was never really a TITANS reader so that Dick relationship I have no real investment in. I read with him and Barbara back when she was still Oracle. No huge investment there, though. Favorite DC couple easy was Lois and Clark. However, I didn't read nearly as many DC books.

It is sad but the shows have a great influence on the opinion of the people and in the comics themselves. In DC I was mainly a WW fan. in her comics for 2000 we saw her having a few love interests: SM, Trevor Barnes, Hercules ... but with the JLU series where Bruce Timm introduced BM/WW something that had never been seen in their comics, some writers started to create stories of them. currently BM/WW have never really been a couple as is the case of Jogan. but despite this thanks to the shows they have a lot of fans.

[Starrius]

[QUOTE=JeisonWolf;3974013]yeah I like Dick and Kory and it's really sad to see what DC is currently doing with them. they give us to understand that Kory always loved Dick but that Dick never really love her and that really sucks.

As for Peter and MJ, thank you for giving me a summary of their story, I remember (even though it was a long time ago so I may be wrong) that in the Spiderman series I really feel bad when they said that MJ was clone and she died or disappeared or something, even though in the end it seems that Peter went to look for the real MJ (that's maked me happy). but now, as I understand, they have become a couple again, that's a really good thing.[/QUOTE


Well..I understand that Dick and Kory always loved each other during the time that they were each other's love interest from 1980 to 1994.

That whole "Dick never really love Kory" stuff is garbage.
In the Wolfman run Titans comics, it's obvious that Dick loved Kory as much as Kory loved Dick.
There are a lot of comic scenes that show that whether it's actions,telling her so, or his thoughts.

There was so much emotion in him even when he broke up with Kory over his marriage of state with Prince Karras.
He lashed out at Kory. He really went off on her when he broke up with her. I really felt bad for Kory because she was in a marriage that was forced on her by her father who sent her into slavery years before to save their planet. He was taking away his daughter's happiness again by making her lose the man that she loves.
Dick was in a lot of emotional pain when he saw Kory get married to Prince Karras. Kory actually was wanting and thinking that Dick could speak up and stop the wedding. Dick misinterpreted Kory's smiling for being content about the wedding and not her actually being happy that he showed up to speak out and stop the wedding. Kory's brother, Ryand'r thought Dick should speak up or else he would lose the woman that he loves . He wished that Dick was open with his emotions like Tamaraneans are.

Dick was very angry and hurt about the marriage. He quit the Titans. He lashed out at Donna to the point that Donna got angry and kicked his ass for being a jerk to her.

If Dick didn't love Kory, he wouldn't have been highly emotionally upset like that.



Dick can love more than one woman in his lifetime.
It doesn't have to be only one as in Barbara.

Peter loved more than one woman in his lifetime, and that has been strongly shown throughout many years.
Gwen being the woman that he loved before she was killed off was never denied.
If she had stayed alive, I am sure that Peter would have married her and just be friends with Mary Jane.
The House of M story shows that. Marrying Gwen wasn't his deepest desire. The deaths of Gwen, Captain Stacy, and his uncle Ben being undone were his deepest desire. That strong feelings of guilt that has turned him into a neurotic factored into him being a superhero. Ironically, he often didn't do well with the responsibilities in his marriage and keeping his wife happy. Like he told Mary Jane before, it took a strong woman to put up with him.


I created a thread for Dick/Kory in Teen Titans forum at comic vine
lot of comic pictures showing that Dick and Kory's relationship was based on love and caring that was mutual
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/teen-...rfire-1975639/


Oh...the Spider-Man animated series. I liked that show. They really left us hanging.
I wished that they showed him finding Mary Jane and they're getting married.

[PsychoEFrost]

at least sins past and one more day didn't destroy the relationships or characters involved. I read people complaining about them but i'm freaking jealous of one more day.

One More Day kinda did. Imagine reading the comics where Jean has been happily married to... someone, pick someone. Then all of a sudden, editorial retcons away the entire marriage and everything around it so she can go back to being fought over by Scott and Logan. That's what OMD did.

I fucking HATE Sins Past it’s the worst thing Marvel’s ever done

Worse than that story with Carol Danvers?

Because that will always be the bottom of the barrel. Nothing has ever come close.

[lancer]

at least sins past and one more day didn't destroy the relationships or characters involved. I read people complaining about them but i'm freaking jealous of one more day.

Didn't destroy any characters? What about Gwen. Granted, mitigated by her being dead for over thirty years at the time. Still, does no favors to her, or in retrospect, Peter/Gwen.

Janssen is 10 years older? I didn't realize it was that much. I knew there was one, though. Also saw Singer, IIRC in the extras on one of the dvds, say he deliberately did it to service the triangle. However, I bought their museum scene in X2. Bottom line, I don't care how much chemistry the actors might have if you give them no scenes together. That is what the first movie did. On the other hand, they gave people 3 or 4 Jogan scenes.

Going in, if you were familiar with the X Men, I think you expect Wolverine to have the biggest part. Like it or not, he was the most popular X Man. I wasn't expecting Cyclops to get the same screentime. But I certainly wasn't expecting the ridiculously one sided treatment of the triangle.
Said it I don't know how many times. TAS, for whatever faults it had, presented it as reasonably true to the comics. Jogan is acknowledged, Jott get the lion's share of the screentime. They are the couple. It's one sided the opposite way of the movies. LOL, that was the comics. That is how it was supposed to be,

[phoenixzero23]

I have been reading inhumans books for the last few days and i could see that Marvel has really screwed with Black Bolt and Medusa. She has sleep with many men and dumped Black bolt many times and still calls him love & husband in death of inhumans. Marvel really likes to screw things for some reason. I wonder if Jean and Scott will get the same treatment.

[TheSupernaut]

I have been reading inhumans books for the last few days and i could see that Marvel has really screwed with Black Bolt and Medusa. She has sleep with many men and dumped Black bolt many times and still calls him love & husband in death of inhumans. Marvel really likes to screw things for some reason. I wonder if Jean and Scott will get the same treatment.

Jean is not Medusa so I hope not.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

One More Day kinda did. Imagine reading the comics where Jean has been happily married to... someone, pick someone. Then all of a sudden, editorial retcons away the entire marriage and everything around it so she can go back to being fought over by Scott and Logan. That's what OMD did.



Worse than that story with Carol Danvers?

Because that will always be the bottom of the barrel. Nothing has ever come close.

The one where she has sex with and then gives birth to her time-traveling son that's actually an alternate dimension king or something?
Yeah, that's bad, but agree to disagree.

[PsychoEFrost]

The one where she has sex with and then gives birth to her time-traveling son that's actually an alternate dimension king or something?
Yeah, that's bad, but agree to disagree.

She gets raped by him, gives birth to him, leaves with him so he can continue raping her, and the Avengers just wave goodbye like nothing is wrong here.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

She gets raped by him, gives birth to him, leaves with him so he can continue raping her, and the Avengers just wave goodbye like nothing is wrong here.

yeah... forgot it was rape. You win.
Settle on second-worst for Sins Past?

[PsychoEFrost]

yeah... forgot it was rape. You win.
Settle on second-worst for Sins Past?

I can live with that.

[JeisonWolf]

I have been reading inhumans books for the last few days and i could see that Marvel has really screwed with Black Bolt and Medusa. She has sleep with many men and dumped Black bolt many times and still calls him love & husband in death of inhumans. Marvel really likes to screw things for some reason. I wonder if Jean and Scott will get the same treatment.

I have looked superficially at what has happened with Medusa and Black Bolt recently. I can only say ... I think I hate Medusa. she cheated BB with Johnny Storm, then she returns with BB. then she says that she is dying and at the first opportunity she has, she cheat him now with Gorgon. only to then tell BB that now the love of her life is Gorgon. I guess it's a family thing, Crystal also cheated Pietro ... while the poor BB is suffering and not stop thinking about her. I do not know if BB has done something wrong about his relationship with her but until I saw him, he looked like the victim. and to think that I thought they were a great couple ...

I hope Marvel does not do anything like this with Jott. Currently my biggest fear is that it has been announced that Jean will have a kiss soon possibly with someone who is not Scott. I'm sure that in the next year Scott will come back (maybe I'm wrong) but if they give Jean a love interest just before Scott returns, it's clear that it will be to create more unnecessary drama.